Moussa Sissoko

[BrainOfLevy]

I subscribe to neither of your schools of thought. So trying to steer the argument to one of your ready made conclusions isnt going to work.

Straight up I think far to much is being read into it.

Id have ignored it were it not for people trying to take it as irrefutable proof of their point of view.

Its PR. Poch says nice and bland things to the press, there is no fuss, no headlines, it works. Thats it, and pretty much all it ever is.

Youve seen it as some kind of vindication, but its really not.

What does he say? Sissoko has been doing a job, an important job, one we've had no one else to do. Thats it, in a nutshell.

The job is important. We need someone fulfilling that role.

Wanyama is not fit. Wanyama is getting back to fitness. Similarly Dembele, who simply isnt right at all. Dier plays virtually every game because we have no choice. Mason hasnt been an option for months. Track our injuries, literally all season Sissoko hasnt had competition for that place.

So he has been our only choice.

If it vindicates anyones point of view, it would be mine for saying he is playing through necessity and not choice.

It might only be one small phrase in the quote, but it is KEY. Without it the whole quote takes a different meaning, the one you want it to. With it? Well, it doesnt quite do the job for you does it? And if he meant the quote as you would prefer, why say that part at all?

I have to say, I’ve read (for my sins) a lot of Spurs community online forums, here, Reddit, Twitter, other places, and you are honestly the only person that has picked up on the ‘right now’ word as this massive context defining thing.

The idea that if we had last seasons Wanyama, 2 years ago Dembele etc meaning that Sissoko would have played less games has an element of ‘no brick, Sherlock’ about it. Of course that would be the case. But you don’t stop there, you then say he hasn’t been performing the role he has been given this season well enough, and that the level of criticism he gets is justified.

It is PR, and Poch knew exactly what he was doing. He wanted the headlines to read about Sissoko in a positive way. You have a bunch of people in this thread say that Sissoko is performing to a decent standard this season and that people are treating him unfairly because of his poor start last year. Poch then literally says those exact things (myths, and the tactical importance to the team), a couple of days after this fierce debate broke out. He is way, way closer to leaning on the side of thinking Sissoko has been doing ok, than leaning on the side of trying to explain that his hands are tied because of injury. He was talking positively about Sissoko, not bemoaning his bad luck, and the tone of his presser is clear.

I remain pretty stunned that people can read into that any other way than Poch trying (sadly in vein) to explain that sissoko has been doing a good job for the team. And that is the point. You not only say that he is playing regularly because we’ve had injuries - which is true - you also say that he hasn’t been doing a good job with his opportunities. Which Poch quote blatantly and obviously was trying to refute.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Why does he qualify his statement then? And why are you so keen to gloss over that?

Those few words, in the context of what you are looking for, change it all. Thats why.

And if he was saying exactly what you wanted to hear, he wouldnt have included them, would he?

They change the context of it entirely.

You agree it is obvious Sissoko wouldnt have played as much had we fit midfield options to choose from. Finally.

But I dont stop there?! What are you going on about.

I point out the bleeding obvious - we have better players, who had they been fit, would have played instead of him. And then follow it up by pointing out he doesnt play anywhere near as well and people are just in saying so. And this is somehow unreasonable or extreme?

Have you any idea just how myopic you have become to hold your stance? Since when is any of that unreasonable?

Poch was just making nice. That was it. Same as any press conference. Honestly, aside from giving you some ammunition this time, what is the last thing you can even remember him saying in a press conference? And was that also a time you chose to blow it out of all proportion?

He talked a player up, when asked directly, a player he is currently relying on. What a shocker!

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Why does he qualify his statement then? And why are you so keen to gloss over that?

Those few words, in the context of what you are looking for, change it all. Thats why.

And if he was saying exactly what you wanted to hear, he wouldnt have included them, would he?

They change the context of it entirely.

You agree it is obvious Sissoko wouldnt have played as much had we fit midfield options to choose from. Finally.

But I dont stop there?! What are you going on about.

I point out the bleeding obvious - we have better players, who had they been fit, would have played instead of him. And then follow it up by pointing out he doesnt play anywhere near as well and people are just in saying so. And this is somehow unreasonable or extreme?

Have you any idea just how myopic you have become to hold your stance? Since when is any of that unreasonable?

Poch was just making nice. That was it. Same as any press conference. Honestly, aside from giving you some ammunition this time, what is the last thing you can even remember him saying in a press conference? And was that also a time you chose to blow it out of all proportion?

He talked a player up, when asked directly, a player he is currently relying on. What a shocker!

It really doesn’t change what he is saying at all. And you still always refuse to say he has been doing well with the opportunities he has been given, when Poch is clearly trying to say that he does.

And again, if he was so bad as people were making out, he didn’t need to go into tactical detail, he didn’t need to say the myths comment. If he didn’t want to be left relying on Sissoko he could have kept Onamah.

 

[scaramanga]

But I should say, it’s blatantly obvious no one gets anywhere near the same level of undeserved abuse. And while factors such as money, Arsenal praise in the past etc may not have impacted you, I’m prettt sure they will have coloured the opinions of the vast swathe of the fan base.

Sissoko just does not have good PR. But someone like Soldado, who cost a lot of money, was unfortunately terrible for us and isn’t here anymore because Poch sold him the first chance he got, is still thought of fondly. The stadium sung his song at every game. And Soldado will still tag his social media posts with COYS. Maybe this doesn’t affect you, but it’s preftt undeniable that Soldado got a far easier ride than Sissoko can ever hope of getting.

Soldado has spent parts of his career playing at a level that could be attributed to a professional footballer. So he got support in trying to recapture that form .

If Sissoko had ever done similarly he'd probably be getting the same treatment. What most of the football world appears to see though, is someone who has made it to the back end of his career without ever reaching that standard. That's why he's ridiculed in and outside of our club.

I don't need to support him because of some vague notion of players needing support from their fans because he has no form to recover. He's never been any good and at 28 is never going to become any good. In fact, his performances for Saudi Sportswashing Machine and those for us last season were depressingly similar and unsurprising:

https://twitter.com/x/status/860122809720328192

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Seriously, read the twitter feeds of Dan KP or Alistair Gold. Spurs journos who were actually in the room, one of whom who actually asked the question, and who know full well what Poch was trying to get across with his statements.

They have reported and reacted to it in the way it was spoken, that Poch went out of his way to praise Sissoko highly, to comment on how well he carries out his tactical role, and to take aim at myths that have been created because a lot of people are still viewing him through the lens of last seasons terrible start. Not one of the people actually in the room has reported on it or reacted to it as Poch severely qualifying his statement to actually not give Sissoko the level of praise the rest of the comment suggested he is doing. Not one has suggested it means Sissoko isn’t really performing his role well enough. And these guys were in the room.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Soldado has spent parts of his career playing at a level that could be attributed to a professional footballer. So he got support in trying to recapture that form .

If Sissoko had ever done similarly he'd probably be getting the same treatment. What most of the football world appears to see though, is someone who has made it to the back end of his career without ever reaching that standard. That's why he's ridiculed in and outside of our club.

I don't need to support him because of some vague notion of players needing support from their fans because he has no form to recover. He's never been any good and at 28 is never going to become any good. In fact, his performances for Saudi Sportswashing Machine and those for us last season were depressingly similar and unsurprising:

https://twitter.com/x/status/860122809720328192

‘Most of the football world’ is a pretty funny way of saying ‘many uninformed fans’.

And again, by suggesting Sissoko has no form to recover, or isn’t playing well, you are saying he isn’t performing the precise role Poch has asked him to do to a decent standard. When Poch thinks he is.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

And no one is denying last season Sissoko was poor. Can we have a discussion about how well he is performing the role he has been given this season, objectively and without bias? That would be great.

 

[scaramanga]

‘Most of the football world’ is a pretty funny way of saying ‘many uninformed fans’.

And again, by suggesting Sissoko has no form to recover, or isn’t playing well, you are saying he isn’t performing the precise role Poch has asked him to do to a decent standard. When Poch thinks he is.

In the entire history of football, has any manager ever publicly described one of his own players as brick and gone on to see either good performances or a good transfer fee from that player?

Your argument would make sense if it was possible for Poch to do the opposite if that were his opinion but he obviously can't.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

In the entire history of football, has any manager ever publicly described one of his own players as brick and gone on to see either good performances or a good transfer fee from that player?

Your argument would make sense if it was possible for Poch to do the opposite if that were his opinion but he obviously can't.

There are levels of positive praise though. There are specifics to what he said. Specifics that I and others were arguing on 2 days before he actually said them. He doesn’t need to go deep with his praise. He doesn’t need to talk about myths.

But as I said, with you it’s like arguing with Trump. Poch literally backed up the precise argument against you and your response is ‘well he would say that, wouldn’t he’ rather than engage for one second with the content of what he actually said. Not one part of you wants to admit you’ve gone too hard. Not one part of you wants to admit that maybe he does have a role that he is performing effectively. No one has ever said he’s first 11, or anything more than a 7/10 most games. But you have called him utterly useless and a poor excuse for a professional. It is you who has to square that viewpoint with the words of the Manager, and your wont to do that whichever way you can, but you have been wrong to go as hard as you did.

 

[Nifel]

And no one is denying last season Sissoko was poor. Can we have a discussion about how well he is performing the role he has been given this season, objectively and without bias? That would be great.

You can look at this compilation quoted below. What is great with his performances?

There's some good moments on here, the best of which is at 2:56. But don't any of you Sissoko critics tell us you don't enjoy what this proud warrior does from 0:31-0:37.

Reprising a very famous moment in Spurs history:

Below is my take on the compilation.

The highlight of Sissoko's spurs career. He's taller than Mark Noble.

Break down of the compilation.

0:15 Sissoko and Aurier have a great combination. Cuts away from Sissoko's unpressed cross. Defenders win.
0:23 Sissoko is able to pass the ball to Kane in own half. Defenders win.
0:35 Sissoko is taller than Noble. Noble loses.
0:40 Sissoko makes a great run, floors the defender and passes the ball to the keeper instead of burying it. Defenders win.
0:55 Sissoko shields the ball, but ends up turning back. Defenders win.
1:00 Sissoko receives cross from Davies, passes the ball to the keeper, but defender arrives and scores OG. Defender loses.
1:15 Sissoko clumsily flicks/half volleys the ball towards Kane and defender puts it to throw in near halfway line. Defenders win.
1:24 Sissoko slowly controls the ball, before turning around passing it to the right back. Defenders win.
1:30 Sissoko receives the ball near the box, can cross, but plays a poor pass that recycles back to our defenders. Defenders win.
1:35 Sissoko drives forward from own half, tries to cross but hits defender square on, lumps the second ball up and Alli has a chance. Alli got a chance, despite S' clumsiness.
1:48 Sissoko has the ball in a 4 against 2 break, struggles to control it and plays an early ball too hard towards N'koudou who is injured in collision with keeper. N'Koudou loses.
2:00 Sissoko crosses the ball backwards, behind Kane who has much to do, and Kane being Kane scores. Kane wins.
2:09 Sissoko has a shot from the corner of the box running on clear shot. Easy pickings for keeper who spills it. Defenders win.
2:12 Sissoko loses control and gives the ball away. Defenders win.
2:16 Sissoko fouls the player instead of winning the ball. Opposition still has the ball.
2:26 Sissoko has a nice touch on own half, runs forward on the break. Eriksen wants the ball, but unpressed cross goes way off (throw in?). Defenders win.
2:30 Sissoko flicks the pass from Winks(?) through to Aurier who puts a perfect cross in and Kane forces OG. Good build up.
2:53 Sissoko picks up loose ball near own box, runs forward but hits opposition with his pass towards Kane. Defenders win.
3:00 Sissoko flicks the ball over defender and rushes forward. Camera cuts after he passes the halfway line. We know what happened next. Sissoko probably miscontrolled it. Nobody knows, but definitely not Sissoko who won.
3:04 Sissoko has a poor touch and then combines with Rose afterwhich Sissoko is fouled at halfway line. Keeps possesion at halfway line.
3:15 Sissoko receives a perfectly weighted pass from Son and shoots in his stride. Scores. Only a player like Sissoko could've missed that chance. Sissoko scored! WOOOOOHO!

The video sums up why he isn't good enough. He does some okay stuff near halfway line. No end product.

I refuse to that Sissoko should play because he is taller than Noble.

TLR
0:45 sums up Sissoko at his best. Everything else pretty rubbish

You want to talk of Sissoko's season. comment that compilation.

0:40 seconds in is the top end of Sissoko.
1:45 is the standard Sissoko. He plays a poor pass which breaks down the attack (and here even injures a team player).

We see one (1!) perfect cross. Aurier. Rest of the crosses = bebe style.

 

[scaramanga]

And no one is denying last season Sissoko was poor. Can we have a discussion about how well he is performing the role he has been given this season, objectively and without bias? That would be great.

Only if you define that role first .

He's not playing as a DM, he's way too wide and too far forward. He's playing something between a box to box and wide AM - "something between" probably because neither are a position he can play to any decent standard.

He can't be in the team for pressing, he doesn't have the positional awareness or reading of the game to do it effectively.

He can't be in the team for his defensive abilities for the same reasons.

He certainly isn't in the team for anything involving him being on the ball - that much is obvious.

As far as I can tell, the reason for him being on the pitch is because it's marginally better than leaving a big hole. Marginally.

 

[scaramanga]

There are levels of positive praise though. There are specifics to what he said. Specifics that I and others were arguing on 2 days before he actually said them. He doesn’t need to go deep with his praise. He doesn’t need to talk about myths.

But as I said, with you it’s like arguing with Trump. Poch literally backed up the precise argument against you and your response is ‘well he would say that, wouldn’t he’ rather than engage for one second with the content of what he actually said. Not one part of you wants to admit you’ve gone too hard. Not one part of you wants to admit that maybe he does have a role that he is performing effectively. No one has ever said he’s first 11, or anything more than a 7/10 most games. But you have called him utterly useless and a poor excuse for a professional. It is you who has to square that viewpoint with the words of the Manager, and your wont to do that whichever way you can, but you have been wrong to go as hard as you did.

I've already gone into why Poch went so heavy on the praise - it's his job to try and balance what everyone else thinks.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Only if you define that role first .

He's not playing as a DM, he's way too wide and too far forward. He's playing something between a box to box and wide AM - "something between" probably because neither are a position he can play to any decent standard.

He can't be in the team for pressing, he doesn't have the positional awareness or reading of the game to do it effectively.

He can't be in the team for his defensive abilities for the same reasons.

He certainly isn't in the team for anything involving him being on the ball - that much is obvious.

As far as I can tell, the reason for him being on the pitch is because it's marginally better than leaving a big hole. Marginally.

He is way better positionally and way more alert to danger than you give him credit for. Way way better. That is exactly why he is in the team - he’s good at that, and he gives it to more technically able players quickly. He provides balance. Poch tried to get into this but it’s beyond the ability of most fans to want, or be capable of listening to it.

 

[scaramanga]

He is way better positionally and way more alert to danger than you give him credit for. Way way better. That is exactly why he is in the team - he’s good at that, and he gives it to more technically able players quickly. He provides balance. Poch tried to get into this but it’s beyond the ability of most fans to want, or be capable of listening to it.

How was his positional sense doing when Southampton were raping Aurier?

 

[BrainOfLevy]

I've already gone into why Poch went so heavy on the praise - it's his job to try and balance what everyone else thinks.

You’re acting like he was gagging for an opportunity to call him brick but because of the broader forces at play, he simply had to give very specific praise tactically. And you honestly think that there is no substance to any of it? Not a hint of truth? You are so certain that you are absolutely not wrong on any of it, and we can completely disregard specific quotes around tactical role for example, because it is more likely that you knew better all along? It is a level of arrogance that would make me boil with fury if it wasn’t for the fact that quite honestly you can be very funny with it sometimes and it draws regular genuine laughs from me. In an appreciative way, not a pitying way. I’m a fan of your comedy.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

How was his positional sense doing when Southampton were raping Aurier?

I don’t know, how was it when he was keeping Real Madrid out in both games? I’m not saying he’s infallible, but I can pick out good examples just like that.

 

[scaramanga]

I don’t know, how was it when he was keeping Real Madrid out in both games? I’m not saying he’s infallible, but I can pick out good examples just like that.

It's quite easy to position oneself when the role is entirely based on two defensive lines .
Positioning when parking the bus is more about discipline than it is an understanding of the game.

Sissoko did well against Madrid because he didn't have to think and didn't have to have much of the ball - perfect but rare conditions.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

It's quite easy to position oneself when the role is entirely based on two defensive lines .
Positioning when parking the bus is more about discipline than it is an understanding of the game.

Sissoko did well against Madrid because he didn't have to think and didn't have to have much of the ball - perfect but rare conditions.

You think we were parking the bus in the home game?

 

[scaramanga]

You’re acting like he was gagging for an opportunity to call him brick but because of the broader forces at play, he simply had to give very specific praise tactically. And you honestly think that there is no substance to any of it? Not a hint of truth? You are so certain that you are absolutely not wrong on any of it, and we can completely disregard specific quotes around tactical role for example, because it is more likely that you knew better all along? It is a level of arrogance that would make me boil with fury if it wasn’t for the fact that quite honestly you can be very funny with it sometimes and it draws regular genuine laughs from me. In an appreciative way, not a pitying way. I’m a fan of your comedy.

Absolutely certain.

Poch making the points in a technical manner rather than a qualitative one has a couple of effects. Firstly it discourages discussion in that environment and takes the focus off of Sissoko - something any good manager should do whenever possible. Secondly, it avoids him directly having to make a quote like "Sissoko is a talented footballer" which could just get looped over videos of him passing to the corner flag like "This does not slip" or "I'd fudging love it"

 

[scaramanga]

You think we were parking the bus in the home game?

We sprang the trap more and countered with more players but still relied on a very solid base, yes.

We certainly didn't use our usual defensive shape of trusting our players to move and track with the flow - they were all in a very rigidly zonal shape.