Moussa Sissoko

[scaramanga]

What about if he has done his coaching badges since he retired from professional football? What about if since doing his coaching badges he has continued to be involved in lots of refreshers and seminars? (AFAIA he hasn't been involved in coaching since he quit football by the way, but what if he had?)

Do you feel that a person who has taken coaching qualifications qualifies as having a better idea about the game than you scara?

That depends entirely on the setup that has taught them and their levels of intelligence.

A person trained by a dinosaur will be no better qualified than a layman (probably worse considering some of the received wisdom in football), and your average football person will be no better than a significantly more intelligent non-football person.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

What about if he has done his coaching badges since he retired from professional football? What about if since doing his coaching badges he has continued to be involved in lots of refreshers and seminars? (AFAIA he hasn't been involved in coaching since he quit football by the way, but what if he had?)

Do you feel that a person who has taken coaching qualifications qualifies as having a better idea about the game than you scara?

Yeah....I mean a coach can look at a player all game, look at his pass selection, look at his positioning, look at his decision making and think 'he's carrying out the plan as required' but a fan may be in the stands shouting 'get it fudging forward!!!!!'.

Ultimately we all see the same thing, but a coach and potentially ex pros do have a better understanding of the context in which those actions are taking place. That's why it's always funny to see people dismiss Poch continuing to play Sissoko or Deschamps picking him as something akin to a joke or something unexplained, because the truth of the matter is he probably is doing exactly what is needed. Deschamps described him as a good soldier. He's a coaches player, a team player, his decision making without the ball, his positioning, his tracking, his covering, his appreciation of space is probably actually pretty great, it's just he's needed to get more comfortable with the ball again. He'll never be an Eriksen but there is a way to get the best out of him in possession too and he's getting back there. I'm not surprised Poch trusts him too as a soldier and team player too, it's just funny that it would fly in the face of most fans who assume from his facial expressions that he's some sort of moody loner.

Coaches and more modern ex pros (e.g. Neville) can appreciate the context of things that we can't. It's why when Neville talks about the improvement in our players with England for example, in their mentality, how they prepare, how they perform, it means something. He knows what good looks like.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Yeah....I mean a coach can look at a player all game, look at his pass selection, look at his positioning, look at his decision making and think 'he's carrying out the plan as required' but a fan may be in the stands shouting 'get it fudging forward!!!!!'.

Ultimately we all see the same thing, but a coach and potentially ex pros do have a better understanding of the context in which those actions are taking place. That's why it's always funny to see people dismiss Poch continuing to play Sissoko or Deschamps picking him as something akin to a joke or something unexplained, because the truth of the matter is he probably is doing exactly what is needed. Deschamps described him as a good soldier. He's a coaches player, a team player, his decision making without the ball, his positioning, his tracking, his covering, his appreciation of space is probably actually pretty great, it's just he's needed to get more comfortable with the ball again. He'll never be an Eriksen but there is a way to get the best out of him in possession too and he's getting back there. I'm not surprised Poch trusts him too as a soldier and team player too, it's just funny that it would fly in the face of most fans who assume from his facial expressions that he's some sort of moody loner.

Coaches and more modern ex pros (e.g. Neville) can appreciate the context of things that we can't. It's why when Neville talks about the improvement in our players with England for example, in their mentality, how they prepare, how they perform, it means something. He knows what good looks like.

Good post. To take this back purely to Sissoko, my thoughts are that he is an ugly, but effective footballer. A lot of fans won't like him because he isn't an elegant player, has inconsistent control and is prone to bad touches/passes/shots and also some strange decision making in good positions (I put that last one down largely to a lack of confidence and not feeling settled at Spurs, as I think there is an improvement here this season). However overall what you get with Sissoko is a player with very good physical attributes who will nearly always win his "1 v 1 battle" (something that is extremely valued in coaching). Last season I thought he mainly looked lost and didn't really know what his role was within the team, but this season he seems to be more settled and is now contributing as a member of the main 18 man squad. He isn't anywhere near a first choice pick when all are fit, but he is now certainly a bona-fide member of the squad who can come in and not let us down in terms of his performance.

I think there will be some Spurs fans who will never warm to Sissoko at all due to his lack of elegance on the ball, but I think most coaches (for reference here - I have level 1, level 2 and UEFA B badges) would tend to weigh up the moments of poor control against the positives that he brings to the team and can see that overall he can prove an effective player in certain circumstances.

I felt that last season the positives from Sissoko got nowhere near outweighing the negatives, but this season I think they have recently started to do so. Some of that will be confidence and some of that will be through Pochettino's coaching along with Sissoko having now spent time integrated with the other players so knowing their strengths and weaknesses and vice versa. Physicality, mobility and pace are very important attributes in a Pochettino team and Sissoko has those attributes. It can be frustrating watching the ball bounce off of his shin, or see him over/under hit a pass. However I find it equally frustrating watching Ali try to nutmeg a player or do a Maradona spin and lose the ball when he has a simple pass on, especially so on the occasions when he then fails to attempt to get into his defensive position immediately afterwards. It isn't as obviously frustrating as a simple bad touch, so tends to get ignored by most fans but the overall outcome on the pitch is the same.

 

[Finney Is Back]

That depends entirely on the setup that has taught them and their levels of intelligence.

A person trained by a dinosaur will be no better qualified than a layman (probably worse considering some of the received wisdom in football), and your average football person will be no better than a significantly more intelligent non-football person.

Your coaching badges aren't achieved by being trained by a single person. They are achieved through lots of research, observation, experience, taking sessions, interaction, experimentation, feedback, etc.

You should take a look into what it takes to gain coaching badges Scara (especially the UEFA ones). I started down the qualifications path because I wanted to get involved in some youth coaching. Appallingly in this country you can do so without having any coaching qualifications, there are therefore kids in this country who are indeed being taught by people without any real clue about football aside from watching their favourite team on the TV/at the stadium. I mean even you could decide to start coaching a kids team if you wanted Scara - scary eh?

I was one of those kids who was initially taught by such a coach when I was a kid playing for a Sunday team, it was the same for the school team where we had a PE teacher who's expertise was Rugby. I then couldn't believe the difference when I started to play district and county level football, where luckily, both setups had a proper, qualified coach. I didn't want to be that Sunday league coach that I had been subjected to when I was young and wanted to instead be the district/county type coach who could actually add value to the games of the kids that I was coaching so I set about going through and getting my badges. First level 1, then 2 and then level 3 - which is the UEFA B badge - which I failed the first time round and got at my second attempt. I haven't gone any further than that so far (and probably never will due to the pressures of time and age).

I won't bore everybody with the detail of the badges but it does widen your understanding of football a lot, especially at UEFA B level. I say that as somebody who played at a reasonably high level and thought I knew it all already.... I didn't... and still don't by a long, long way. I have huge respect for those that continue to their UEFA A and then go on to get their UEFA Pro license.

IMO our FA should be putting large amounts of money into sponsoring young adults who get weeded out of pro/semi-pro football at 18 to 21 and start putting them through the coaching courses and then sponsor them to go into grass roots football. If the FA did that the standard of football in this country would go up massively, but I think that is a topic for a whole other thread on here (and probably in General as opposed to this forum?).

As another aside if any of you on here are parents with young kids that are playing football or you want to start playing football and get into a youth team somewhere. Please do try to take them to a club that has a qualified coach in the set-up, preferably one who is more interested in developing their technique and understanding as opposed to just winning matches.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

I guess that's what it comes down to isn't it? I've tried as much as possible to tie the idea of fans being positive about Sissoko to the success of the team generally, because I'm sure we can all agree that positivity around the ground is much better for player's confidence and the atmosphere in general. But from the other side comes a shrug. We don't care, we just want a bit of banter.

And as you say, there really is no stopping that. But the reason I've been so passionate about the defence of Sissoko is because if I can do anything to negate the awful atmosphere around him, along with a few others, then I feel like in some way I've contributed. Ultimately, Sissoko continuing to get better will be the only answer to it, but I just veer on to the side of when he actually is playing quite well, he doesn't deserve the minor faults to be extrapolated into major ones, just because he was terrible last year. We can all contribute to speeding up his comfort process and getting him into better form IMV.

I think we are all just in different places on the 'resurrection of Sissoko' curve, that is all.

Anyone at the actual ground who verbally abuses him or tinkle takes can do one, in my eyes. Support in the presence of the team should be a given. We can dissect and moan a bit afterwards over a drink.

I would suggest it may be a long way back for some due to the extremely poor performances and frankly embarassing moments he managed last year. In this team, he stood out as completely unsuitable and out of his depth.

He is improving game by game and definately looking comfortable in the set-up. I know Poch is picking him but i would ask is that because of the players available at the time ie Moose,Wanyama injured and Winks not up to speed? I suppose Sonny would have a claim.

I had a brainwave last night, that perhaps all we know of Sissoko is his games for us and a hit and miss time at Saudi Sportswashing Machine........so i'm off to watch some youtube Toulouse videos to see if a happy Sissoko was tearing up trees there.

 

[90291Spur]

I think we are all just in different places on the 'resurrection of Sissoko' curve, that is all.

Anyone at the actual ground who verbally abuses him or tinkle takes can do one, in my eyes. Support in the presence of the team should be a given. We can dissect and moan a bit afterwards over a drink.

I would suggest it may be a long way back for some due to the extremely poor performances and frankly embarassing moments he managed last year. In this team, he stood out as completely unsuitable and out of his depth.

He is improving game by game and definately looking comfortable in the set-up. I know Poch is picking him but i would ask is that because of the players available at the time ie Moose,Wanyama injured and Winks not up to speed? I suppose Sonny would have a claim.

I had a brainwave last night, that perhaps all we know of Sissoko is his games for us and a hit and miss time at Saudi Sportswashing Machine........so i'm off to watch some youtube Toulouse videos to see if a happy Sissoko was tearing up trees there.

To get a true sense of why he's being picked we'd have to watch him in training. From what I have read of Poch, if Sissoko wasn't doing his best (that
he's giving at least 110%) and listening and contributing then he wouldn't even be on the bench.

 

[alekaras]

That depends entirely on the setup that has taught them and their levels of intelligence.

A person trained by a dinosaur will be no better qualified than a layman (probably worse considering some of the received wisdom in football), and your average football person will be no better than a significantly more intelligent non-football person.

You know, it's OK to admit once in a while that someone else may have a better argument, instead of coming up with all kinds of excuses to support one that is clearly on its last leg.

 

[scaramanga]

You know, it's OK to admit once in a while that someone else may have a better argument, instead of coming up with all kinds of excuses to support one that is clearly on its last leg.

What's wrong with not rating the thoughts and opinions they come from the football closed loop?

In pretty much any walk of life, an untrained intellectual will be able to out think and out analyse a trained simpleton. Football is no different, but because it's become a quasi-religion, people treat it like it is.

 

[Finney Is Back]

What's wrong with not rating the thoughts and opinions they come from the football closed loop?

In pretty much any walk of life, an untrained intellectual will be able to out think and out analyse a trained simpleton. Football is no different, but because it's become a quasi-religion, people treat it like it is.

The problem here Scara is that you assume that everybody involved in football is a simpleton, that is an incredibly poor assumption to make. Granted almost all of those who make it in football do not continue their education to a decent level, with many stopping bothering with it completely as soon as they reach their teens, but that doesn't make them simpletons. Many people that I have encountered within the game over the years have actually been hugely bright individuals and with the right channeling of their minds, along with the determination they naturally must have to make a career in football, could probably have been successful in many fields. To be honest I doubt you would make a successful coach Scara, I could be wrong but you seem to be a person who isn't necessarily prepared to listen to other people, to consider alternative points of view or to try new things that are different to what you believe in. Those not prepared to change their point of view do not tend to make good coaches in any sport IMO.

 

[parklane1]

That depends entirely on the setup that has taught them and their levels of intelligence.

A person trained by a dinosaur will be no better qualified than a layman (probably worse considering some of the received wisdom in football), and your average football person will be no better than a significantly more intelligent non-football person.

Sorry mate but as usual you are talking gonad*s on the subject. Having been and done( and passed them) the vast majority of coaching badges and courses ( as a matter of interest how many coaching courses for badges have you done) i can assure you there are many different people you have to work under to achieve them.

 

[greatwhitenorf]

What a pile of brick!

"Are you one of those people?
Or are you just afraid?
Are you one who craves excitement?
Were you tailor made?
For This Sporting Life
Living on a knife's edge
This Sporting Life's forever changing"

This, my sweet baboo, pretty much sums up what it has taken to be an actual Spurs fan the past 15-20 seasons.

 

[scaramanga]

The problem here Scara is that you assume that everybody involved in football is a simpleton, that is an incredibly poor assumption to make. Granted almost all of those who make it in football do not continue their education to a decent level, with many stopping bothering with it completely as soon as they reach their teens, but that doesn't make them simpletons. Many people that I have encountered within the game over the years have actually been hugely bright individuals and with the right channeling of their minds, along with the determination they naturally must have to make a career in football, could probably have been successful in many fields.

I just rely on what I see and hear.

What I see and hear is football people that aren't very intelligent - not by the standards of the people I meet day to day.

To be honest I doubt you would make a successful coach Scara, I could be wrong but you seem to be a person who isn't necessarily prepared to listen to other people, to consider alternative points of view or to try new things that are different to what you believe in. Those not prepared to change their point of view do not tend to make good coaches in any sport IMO.

Being a successful coach is no more difficult than being a successful director.

I don't tend to change my opinion often because it's so incredibly rare that I'm ever wrong about something. I have specialists who advise me in very narrow areas to help guide my views and I make my decisions from there.

 

[scaramanga]

Sorry mate but as usual you are talking gonads on the subject. Having been and done( and passed them) the vast majority of coaching badges and courses ( as a matter of interest how many coaching courses for badges have you done) i can assure you there are many different people you have to work under to achieve them.

Who, on the whole, have been educated within the football system.

Football has been notorious for choosing internal received wisdom over external analysis and unless that's changed massively in the last 5 years or so it's still the same. Your own inability to distinguish between the poorly collated and analysed stats from your day with those from the modern, enlightened era go a long way to proving what's wrong with the "education" in football.

 

[parklane1]

Who, on the whole, have been educated within the football system.

Football has been notorious for choosing internal received wisdom over external analysis and unless that's changed massively in the last 5 years or so it's still the same. Your own inability to distinguish between the poorly collated and analysed stats from your day with those from the modern, enlightened era go a long way to proving what's wrong with the "education" in football.

Unbelievable you may be very good at what you do ( work wise) but you talk out of your arse about something you have no knowledge of except for your prejudice view.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I just rely on what I see and hear.

What I see and hear is football people that aren't very intelligent - not by the standards of the people I meet day to day.


Being a successful coach is no more difficult than being a successful director.

I don't tend to change my opinion often because it's so incredibly rare that I'm ever wrong about something. I have specialists who advise me in very narrow areas to help guide my views and I make my decisions from there.

It is easy to never be wrong about something in your own mind. You simply have to refuse to admit the case.

One who thinks they are always right will never really improve their understanding of anything, as they don't have the mindset to experiment or seek alternatives.

I would say that some of the most impressive people that I have met over the years have been wrong on many occassions, they are impressive as they identify this, admit it and then change course. Having that strength of character is key in leadership roles in both business and sport IMO.

Also how do you know that being a successful coach is no more difficult than being a successful director? Have you tried both?

Analysing myself I would say that I am a far more successful/impressive director than I am a coach, although I am still learning in both aspects (and will continue to try to learn as much as possible in both roles). Is leadership an art or a science do you think Scara?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Unbelievable you may be very good at what you do ( work wise) but you talk out of your arse about something you have no knowledge of except for your prejudice view.

Actually I do agree with him that football is not an environment that welcomes newcomers into it. It's like an old boys club and you had to have played at a certain level to coach or manage at that level

And some of the brick I've seen coached to my nephew via EUFA qualified coaches scares me... there brain washing people to follow a plan but taking away the freedom needed for young players to develop and make mistakes

 

[parklane1]

Actually I do agree with him that football is not an environment that welcomes newcomers into it. It's like an old boys club and you had to have played at a certain level to coach or manage at that level

And some of the brick I've seen coached to my nephew via EUFA qualified coaches scares me... there brain washing people to follow a plan but taking away the freedom needed for young players to develop and make mistakes

Of course there is good and bad workman in all trades/jobs as i am sure you will agree. But coaching is NOT a closed shop at all, during my time i have met people from all walks of life who have worked hard and spent many years ( depending on how high they want to progress) taking and passing the various levels they require to progress. During these various courses they have to show to a lot of folks that they have the ability to do the job( that is why i said Scara was talking out of his arse because they are several you have to impress).

The best coaches are usually those who have not achieved fame as players though, they are true lovers of the game and not ex pros who need something to do. I decided to concentrate on youth football because there is nothing more fulfilling then seeing young players learn and improve ( imo). as for brainwashing well i can honestly say that in all the years i was coaching here and abroad i never came across anything like that, however as i said before there are good and bad in every walk of job and life.

 

[Rorschach]

Actually I do agree with him that football is not an environment that welcomes newcomers into it. It's like an old boys club and you had to have played at a certain level to coach or manage at that level

And some of the brick I've seen coached to my nephew via EUFA qualified coaches scares me... there brain washing people to follow a plan but taking away the freedom needed for young players to develop and make mistakes

I'm not too sure about that Bedford though sometimes it feels like it. It is true that at the top end that there is a managerial merry go round of (failed) coaches, which I honestly can't understand, but at grassroots level football is evolving and refreshing itself all the time in my experience. I think younger coaches are more open to the 'fads' of current football, and there is nothing wrong with that IMO. Some fads work. Some are nonsense and the good coaches can quickly decide which is which.

That is not to say that all coaches are good, even qualified ones. In fact there are many many coaches that are stuck in the past and nothing they see or learn will change them. Some of the brick I hear on the sidelines is almost embarrassing, but there is good and bad in every walk of life (even some company directors are not good. True dat!). But the worm has turned in my opinion.

 

[scaramanga]

It is easy to never be wrong about something in your own mind. You simply have to refuse to admit the case.

One who thinks they are always right will never really improve their understanding of anything, as they don't have the mindset to experiment or seek alternatives.

I would say that some of the most impressive people that I have met over the years have been wrong on many occassions, they are impressive as they identify this, admit it and then change course. Having that strength of character is key in leadership roles in both business and sport IMO.

Also how do you know that being a successful coach is no more difficult than being a successful director? Have you tried both?

Analysing myself I would say that I am a far more successful/impressive director than I am a coach, although I am still learning in both aspects (and will continue to try to learn as much as possible in both roles). Is leadership an art or a science do you think Scara?

Everything is a science, "art" is just science that has yet to be understood and properly applied.

At no point have I suggested I'm never wrong, just that it's rare.

The reason I know being a coach is easier is that I've met quite a large number of football people through corporate events - whether they were speakers or at meet and greets, etc. Most of them were thoroughly decent people with a few interesting stories. None of them would stand out outside the world of football.

Just think about it statistically. There are very, very few genuinely intelligent people. I mean the real stand out types - it's a genuinely rare skill. Now think about how many people are skillful in a football sense - again, very, very rare. So what proportion of the population are likely to be in the top bracket(s) of both? It's going to be incredibly rare. I suspect that the handful who are that able are in the handful of world class managers.

Edit:
That's not to say I think I'd make a good coach. I have neither the patience nor the inclination to spend my days explaining concepts to your average footballer.

 

[scaramanga]

Actually I do agree with him that football is not an environment that welcomes newcomers into it. It's like an old boys club and you had to have played at a certain level to coach or manage at that level

And some of the brick I've seen coached to my nephew via EUFA qualified coaches scares me... there brain washing people to follow a plan but taking away the freedom needed for young players to develop and make mistakes

That's the issue.

Football caps off its own advancement by limiting itself to those who have played to reasonably high levels. Mourinho and Wenger probably stand out from that group, but as a whole, football turns away the best and brightest from the start. Even they were involved in football to some extent.