Micky van de Ven

[harr1984]

I hear what you're saying in terms of a possible development from Ange and truthfully that's all I wanted to see from him. Some degree of him understanding the limitations of his squad and taking that into account but he never did. So for me I had no belief that Ange would have have actually used the EL as a stepping stone to evolve his style further.

Again I'll say if that was his intention you would expect to see some movement towards this in the league games that remember he's subsequently said he basically through away anyway. That was his moment to freely experiment as playing his way we were losing week after week after week anyway.

I get that you're a bit of a romantic, but you need to divorce the emotions from the reality. Words are one thing actions tell you everything you need to actually know about a person. I don't know how the way he handled the latter part of the season can give you any confidence he intended on continuing this evolution. The man was stubborn, he said so himself. Why wouldn't he try out this evolved style in those games when for him they no longer were a priority? Why not begin the process of making the subtle evolution a permanent style? He never did because he had no intention of doing so. This season would have just been more of the same unless VDV and Romero once again decided that "somethings need to change"

Frank might be over correcting but frankly we were a shambles defensively and we need to be more solid. Whether Frank can balance some defensive solidity and attacking play remains to be seen and that is what he will be judged on, just like every other manager.

Sadly this season is more of the same, if that and Frank doesn't have us any more solid. At the same stage we'd conceded 2 less goals and scored 11 more last season....

 

[thfcsteff]

I hear what you're saying in terms of a possible development from Ange and truthfully that's all I wanted to see from him. Some degree of him understanding the limitations of his squad and taking that into account but he never did. So for me I had no belief that Ange would have have actually used the EL as a stepping stone to evolve his style further.

Again I'll say if that was his intention you would expect to see some movement towards this in the league games that remember he's subsequently said he basically through away anyway. That was his moment to freely experiment as playing his way we were losing week after week after week anyway.

I get that you're a bit of a romantic, but you need to divorce the emotions from the reality. Words are one thing actions tell you everything you need to actually know about a person. I don't know how the way he handled the latter part of the season can give you any confidence he intended on continuing this evolution. The man was stubborn, he said so himself. Why wouldn't he try out this evolved style in those games when for him they no longer were a priority? Why not begin the process of making the subtle evolution a permanent style? He never did because he had no intention of doing so. This season would have just been more of the same unless VDV and Romero once again decided that "somethings need to change"

Frank might be over correcting but frankly we were a shambles defensively and we need to be more solid. Whether Frank can balance some defensive solidity and attacking play remains to be seen and that is what he will be judged on, just like every other manager.

He was so stubborn that he didn't listen to anyone, right? So stubborn that we didn't grind that trophy out with opposite action? Words and actions indeed. The fact he did it in a competition we won is undeniable. And you tell me I 'need to divorce emotions from reality'? My view is a hypothesis. Based on having won a trophy adapting. Not emotion. Fact. FWIW I'd already let go of him staying before the parade,

You want to talk emotions and reality, words and actions?
Here's Thomas on taking risks, back in August ...

"I'm a big believer, I always say this one liner, if you don't take risk, you also take risk. So I think it's important that we take risks. A risk is, for example, if we play a man to man, in some situations, the risk is you need to play forward. If you don't risk the ball, you can't create anything. So I'm a big, big believer of that. We need to be brave. The players need to be brave when we play, and they need to trust themselves. So I will do my very best to install that trust and the players need to be brave."
Words...that don't match the actions we're seeing.
It's all good, managers -especially new ones- say 'good' things. But those actions amigo, oof!!!

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

TBH I think too much is made of stuff like this as much as it is when Frank does an interview and people turn into Spurs Jordan Peterson on his mental state.

This is not a dig, but I just don't think people understand what its like at top level Sports, this is not teacher student levels of management, there is more to it. So when I see "they are only doing what they are told" or "the manager had to be told" its makes me chuckle.

There will always be dialogue between senior players and managers, watching a few manager podcasts they all talk about frank manager/captain meetings

 

[Bishop]

He was so stubborn that he didn't listen to anyone, right? So stubborn that we didn't grind that trophy out with opposite action? Words and actions indeed. The fact he did it in a competition we won is undeniable. And you tell me I 'need to divorce emotions from reality'? My view is a hypothesis. Based on having won a trophy adapting. Not emotion. Fact. FWIW I'd already let go of him staying before the parade,

You want to talk emotions and reality, words and actions?
Here's Thomas on taking risks, back in August ...

"I'm a big believer, I always say this one liner, if you don't take risk, you also take risk. So I think it's important that we take risks. A risk is, for example, if we play a man to man, in some situations, the risk is you need to play forward. If you don't risk the ball, you can't create anything. So I'm a big, big believer of that. We need to be brave. The players need to be brave when we play, and they need to trust themselves. So I will do my very best to install that trust and the players need to be brave."
Words...that don't match the actions we're seeing.
It's all good, managers -especially new ones- say 'good' things. But those actions amigo, oof!!!

You seem to be trying to turn this into a Ange Vs Frank thing. I'll evaluate Frank in exactly the same way. He can say what he likes but his actions will speak far louder, just like was the case with Ange.

 

[Bishop]

Sadly this season is more of the same, if that and Frank doesn't have us any more solid. At the same stage we'd conceded 2 less goals and scored 11 more last season....

I personally would take some brick attacking play if and it is a caveat it meant we were building a solid defensive structure. We absolutely need some fudging stability in a defensive sense. Conceding 60 fudging goals every season is ridiculous and we can never progress doing this.

Now of course the question is if what we are sacrificing in terms of progressive play is worth it for what we gain defensively. So far it hasn't been, but I'm happy enough to give him the season to see if he can progress and adapt.

I say the same brick with every coach we appoint, I want someone who can see our flaws and can address them directly. I want someone who is adaptable, someone who proactive rather than reactive. Whether Frank is that guy or not time will tell.

I see some clear ways to progress which for me is bringing in the right profile of player and even then using the players we do have of some quality correctly which obviously hasn't been the case so far, but again in willing to see if he can adapt and adapt in an Intelligent manner.

I'm willing to accept some brick attacking play if we look competent defensively. I want balance, I don't hari kari all out attack not do I want backs to the trench fudging warfare. I am happy enough with the idea of building upon a defensive foundation with the progressive play to come later in stages but fudge me I can't deal with watching us continually conceding these fudging ridiculously sloppy goals constantly.

Again with Frank time will tell. I'll give any coach or player a season before I'll evaluate them critically, but that's me. I have the patience of a season at least.

 

[harr1984]

I personally would take some brick attacking play if and it is a caveat it meant we were building a solid defensive structure. We absolutely need some fudging stability in a defensive sense. Conceding 60 fudging goals every season is ridiculous and we can never progress doing this.

Now of course the question is if what we are sacrificing in terms of progressive play is worth it for what we gain defensively. So far it hasn't been, but I'm happy enough to give him the season to see if he can progress and adapt.

I say the same brick with every coach we appoint, I want someone who can see our flaws and can address them directly. I want someone who is adaptable, someone who proactive rather than reactive. Whether Frank is that guy or not time will tell.

I see some clear ways to progress which for me is bringing in the right profile of player and even then using the players we do have of some quality correctly which obviously hasn't been the case so far, but again in willing to see if he can adapt and adapt in an Intelligent manner.

I'm willing to accept some brick attacking play if we look competent defensively. I want balance, I don't hari kari all out attack not do I want backs to the trench fudging warfare. I am happy enough with the idea of building upon a defensive foundation with the progressive play to come later in stages but fudge me I can't deal with watching us continually conceding these fudging ridiculously sloppy goals constantly.

Again with Frank time will tell. I'll give any coach or player a season before I'll evaluate them critically, but that's me. I have the patience of a season at least.

Yeah agree, time will tell and ripping up the playbook yet again at this stage is not going to achieve anything. Right now for me, its a case of Frank needing to do better and answering the questions that are being asked. He's an intelligent guy, there's nothing to say he can't come up with the answers....