Lucas Bergvall

[Finney Is Back]

Vinai isn't our CEO. The randomer from Charrington Breweries is

Only in your head GB….

 

[Ace Face]

We have a different CEO now. One with no football background (Levy had at least worked at Rangers/Slavia/AEK before coming to us)

They are selling our brightest assets for quick cash, rather than trying to build something

Vinai isn't our CEO. The randomer from Charrington Breweries is

The CEO is Vinai.

Peter Charrington is the non-executive Chairman.

 

[robp135]

We shouldn't be trying to sign Tonali if our 10s are going to be Gallagher and Madisson. Should be signing better 10s

Looks like we’re in for Gakpo as well who can play as a LW, AM & CF.

 

[metalgear]

You and @Gutter Boy really take the biscuit my friend

Interesting that RDZ never, to my recollection, name-checked Bergvall or his importtance. I guess your classification of our crown jewels and that of our coach may not be exactly aligned...

We will see. I never trust what coaches and players say. However I find it strange how some people can hold on to positive biases for so long....other clubs can be worse but not Spurs....Levy type of thinking. Similar to Trump and his beloved USA. But it's sports and entertainment to me, don't mind my candid views.

 

[metalgear]

G

Looks like we’re in for Gakpo as well who can play as a LW, AM & CF.

Gakpo is speedy and good at set pieces and long shots. Clear upgrade and a realistic transfer.

 

[thfcsteff]

I felt he would be a 'sacrifice' so-to-speak (said it on pod on our squad review) along with Pape and one or two others we might be surprised by. It seems that RDZ is happy to pass on Palhinha if he gets Tonali and Fernandes (which feels highly likely at this moment). I think it is clear that Bergy does not fit RDZ's plans, so if we can get the money, we should. Might we be passing on a generational talent? It's possible but I think unlikely.
I really like him, and during Ange's last season felt he might well be a future skipper, but for me, since his pre-ELFinal injury he has not pushed on like we'd have hoped. Not especially his fault given that Frank never used him properly when he did, plus his season was injury-riddled too. I think he would do well in Italy for example, and again, if the money is there and we are strengthening as the manager wants, then I'm fine with it. Let's face it, 35 mill for Bergy and 25 for Pape certainly helps defray the outgoings. Add to that the potential CB business...

 

[thfcsteff]

In amongst the deadwood departures this summer it feels like there's going to be some painful ones too. Bergvall is a great prospect but if we do sign tonali or Hernandes or both (which I think is unlikely) then he's unlikely to get a look in.

I'd move mountains to keep both Bergvall and Gray this summer, and would prefer to move out some of the more experienced players, but realistically that may not be possible.

Seems youth is not high on the De Zerbi priority list, which means we are once again about to move to the polar opposite philosophy in a couple of seasons - Vuskovic, Moore, Gray, Tel, Odobert, Bergvall, Souza, have all been bought (or developed) with their future ability in mind. In RDZ is committed to buying ready made players then most of the above are going to struggle for game time.

I think I understand the direction, but I am not sure I want to clear out the young prospects, I'd rather have them ready to learn and be blooded behind the first team.

Really interesting reading and a good post.
I want a balance. I think Archie stays. I think we keep Mikey Moore because he is happy to loan again and there will be opportunities. I would keep Tel. Souza? Loan. If you gave me 45-50 million for Vuskovic, I'd take it. Could I end up looking like a chump? Absolutely! Has anyone seen enough of him to honestly call him a generational talent? I doubt it. Does he have skills? Yes. Does he need to learn and develop much more? Absolutely. If he isn't prepared to do that, and we can sell for that sort of money, then yes, I'd take it and risk ridicule. Same with Bergy, as much to set him free as anything. I'd love to see Bergy and Gray as our midfielde two, however RDZ doesn't play in a way to accomodate that, and he's our manager, so we have to accept this is how it is. I think your comment about DZ not being especially youth minded is spot-on. He wants it now. The signings are largely for now, which is risky. At least Fernandes is only 21 so a very young player himself...

Ideally, Vuskovic would loan out for another season to see if can walk into the side next season, which is also something I'd love to see for Lankshear and Moore...

 

[demotw]

The player gets screwed then. His career will stall because like it or not, he is not part of RDZ's plans. That would be cruel.

Maybe, but answer me this, why do we sell our youngsters for 10-20m when everyone else holds out for 40-50m. If we want to build a strong team, we need to be a little ruthless I think. It can't all be the players way, the conversation needs to be we will let you go if someone bids £xx and get his agent do some work.

This is not us saying we want to sell him, but him saying he wants to go, which is different imo.

 

[thfcsteff]

Maybe, but answer me this, why do we sell our youngsters for 10-20m when everyone else holds out for 40-50m. If we want to build a strong team, we need to be a little ruthless I think. It can't all be the players way, the conversation needs to be we will let you go if someone bids £xx and get his agent do some work.

This is not us saying we want to sell him, but him saying he wants to go, which is different imo.

I think we'd get 35 for him if we sold him. And I think if we have a chance to pull those two others in and sell Bergy for a decent fee, we should take it and move on. Holding out for the extra 10-15 could cost us more in the long run IMO

 

[demotw]

I think we'd get 35 for him if we sold him. And I think if we have a chance to pull those two others in and sell Bergy for a decent fee, we should take it and move on. Holding out for the extra 10-15 could cost us more in the long run IMO

I think a lot depends on what our situation is. If signing 2 of Wharton, Fernandes and Tonali is dependent on us selling Bergvall then I agree with your point. If it isn't however, then holding on for what we feel his worth is, is then the right move. He has had more exposure then say Palmer did who went for 40m+. Even Archie Gray was 40m when we signed him from the championship whereas Bergvall has shown he can hold his own in the prem at his age.

 

[revlis]

I am absolutely all for giving the manager the players he wants, but when only two managers in the last 20 years have managed a third season and only three have got to 100 games, it's a bit of a risk losing two very high-potential young players.

Not saying it's wrong. Just that it will require actually seeing through this project. Is RDZ the guy to do it? It feels like he is right now, but it's still a big risk and would be a huge departure from the Spurs we know.

 

[robp135]

I think we'd get 35 for him if we sold him. And I think if we have a chance to pull those two others in and sell Bergy for a decent fee, we should take it and move on. Holding out for the extra 10-15 could cost us more in the long run IMO

I think we can get more as there will be plenty of teams in for him. We should get £100M combined for Bergvall & Vuskovic. Add in Vicario, Romero, Dragusin, Sarr, Richarlison that’s another £100M. Then you got some of the younger players that have been out on loan like Phillops, Devine, Solomon, Veliz. We will get a cut of Parrots transfer as well. £200M+ incoming is very realistic.

 

[Raziel]

I am absolutely all for giving the manager the players he wants, but when only two managers in the last 20 years have managed a third season and only three have got to 100 games, it's a bit of a risk losing two very high-potential young players.

Not saying it's wrong. Just that it will require actually seeing through this project. Is RDZ the guy to do it? It feels like he is right now, but it's still a big risk and would be a huge departure from the Spurs we know.

I think it's a little more complicated

- RDZ rightly has a huge task this season, basically we need to get back into Europe and prove the last two seasons were an aberration not the norm
- It wouldn't be right, at this moment to put that demand and similarly say "we need you to develop x number of youth players"

For us, there are two questions,

1. does the club see the promise that fans see in Vuskovic, Tel, Gray, Bergvall, Odobert, Moore, Lankshear?
2. if the answer is yes, and considering the impact of HG/Association, can we give the players an incentive to stick around and/or go on loan for a season (onus on us to find right loans)

If not, then sell, sell properly and put sell on/buy back clauses to ensure the risk in minimized.

 

[metalgear]

In amongst the deadwood departures this summer it feels like there's going to be some painful ones too. Bergvall is a great prospect but if we do s or Hernandes or both (which I think is unlikely) then he's unlikely to get a look in.

I'd move mountains to keep both Bergvall and Gray this summer, and would prefer to move out some of the more experienced players, but realistically that may not be possible.

Seems youth is not high on the De Zerbi priority list, which means we are once again about to move to the polar opposite philosophy in a couple of seasons - Vuskovic, Moore, Gray, Tel, Odobert, Bergvall, Souza, have all been bought (or developed) with their future ability in mind. In RDZ is committed to buying ready made players then most of the above are going to struggle for game time.

I think I understand the direction, but I am not sure I want to clear out the young prospects, I'd rather have them ready to learn and be blooded behind the first team.

Sign and resign two over thirties and let two very promising young ones go. Maybe the owners and management have decided they want to be in Europe...at all costs.

 

[revlis]

I think it's a little more complicated

- RDZ rightly has a huge task this season, basically we need to get back into Europe and prove the last two seasons were an aberration not the norm
- It wouldn't be right, at this moment to put that demand and similarly say "we need you to develop x number of youth players"

For us, there are two questions,

1. does the club see the promise that fans see in Vuskovic, Tel, Gray, Bergvall, Odobert, Moore, Lankshear?
2. if the answer is yes, and considering the impact of HG/Association, can we give the players an incentive to stick around and/or go on loan for a season (onus on us to find right loans)

If not, then sell, sell properly and put sell on/buy back clauses to ensure the risk in minimized.

I think the bigger question right now is: are we willing to see this through, no matter what happens? I understand we can't be doing 17th again but what is acceptable? If we don't get Europe after spending a few hundred million, do we keep pushing? What if RDZ decides he isn't getting what he wants? He hasn't stayed at a club more than a couple of years and we haven't kept a manager for more than a couple of years. That's a lot of risk to be taking on letting players like Vuskovic and Bergvall go.

Again, I'm not saying it's wrong. It's just a big departure from what we know. And I include the fanbase in that. I didn't want Thomas Frank but even I was surprised by the level of dissent towards him so early on. It won't take much for the toxicity to seep in again.

 

[robp135]

I think the bigger question right now is: are we willing to see this through, no matter what happens? I understand we can't be doing 17th again but what is acceptable? If we don't get Europe after spending a few hundred million, do we keep pushing? What if RDZ decides he isn't getting what he wants? He hasn't stayed at a club more than a couple of years and we haven't kept a manager for more than a couple of years. That's a lot of risk to be taking on letting players like Vuskovic and Bergvall go.

Again, I'm not saying it's wrong. It's just a big departure from what we know. And I include the fanbase in that. I didn't want Thomas Frank but even I was surprised by the level of dissent towards him so early on. It won't take much for the toxicity to seep in again.

Our net spend won’t be too different to recent seasons when it’s all said and done.

 

[harr1984]

I think the bigger question right now is: are we willing to see this through, no matter what happens? I understand we can't be doing 17th again but what is acceptable? If we don't get Europe after spending a few hundred million, do we keep pushing? What if RDZ decides he isn't getting what he wants? He hasn't stayed at a club more than a couple of years and we haven't kept a manager for more than a couple of years. That's a lot of risk to be taking on letting players like Vuskovic and Bergvall go.

Again, I'm not saying it's wrong. It's just a big departure from what we know. And I include the fanbase in that. I didn't want Thomas Frank but even I was surprised by the level of dissent towards him so early on. It won't take much for the toxicity to seep in again.

I don't understand the argument what if RDZ leaves - We are looking to invest in quality players, these are players that any manager would be happy to work with. As an example Tonali, Scholes labelled him the best CM in the league - there isn't going to be any manager who doesn't want to work with that standard of player, players like a Bergvall we are only ever hoping will reach that level.

It's a positive thing, fans on here for so long have been used to clinging onto a hope that a player turns into a really good player rather than just sign players who are already really good - We have invested in young 'punts' for so long and spent so much time hoping they are going to turn out great because they are young so assume each year they are going to get better and better when often it's not the case. We need better quality players, and Bergvall who wasn't rated enough to play under RDZ last season isn't going to get any better sitting on our bench again this season so best for all involved to part ways, especially if he doesn't want to be here....

 

[revlis]

I don't understand the argument what if RDZ leaves - We are looking to invest in quality players, these are players that any manager would be happy to work with. As an example Tonali, Scholes labelled him the best CM in the league - there isn't going to be any manager who doesn't want to work with that standard of player, players like a Bergvall we are only ever hoping will reach that level.

It's a positive thing, fans on here for so long have been used to clinging onto a hope that a player turns into a really good player rather than just sign players who are already really good - We have invested in young 'punts' for so long and spent so much time hoping they are going to turn out great because they are young so assume each year they are going to get better and better when often it's not the case. We need better quality players, and Bergvall who wasn't rated enough to play under RDZ last season isn't going to get any better sitting on our bench again this season so best for all involved to part ways, especially if he doesn't want to be here....

Because it's just another a sign of the club not being able to commit to something. We seemed to accept our place in the football chain and signed Bergvall, Gray, Tel, Vuskovic etc. Now a couple of years later we're changing strategy yet again and going after big, expensive, 'do a job now' players. Once again, I'm not complaining about that as a strategy. I'm not saying it is wrong per se. I'm saying this club flips and flops way too much. We still don't have any semblance of an identity, of what we want to be. That'll take some time to develop under RDZ. But it's a huge risk, based on everything we've seen until now.

 

[harr1984]

Because it's just another a sign of the club not being able to commit to something. We seemed to accept our place in the football chain and signed Bergvall, Gray, Tel, Vuskovic etc. Now a couple of years later we're changing strategy yet again and going after big, expensive, 'do a job now' players. Once again, I'm not complaining about that as a strategy. I'm not saying it is wrong per se. I'm saying this club flips and flops way too much. We still don't have any semblance of an identity, of what we want to be. That'll take some time to develop under RDZ. But it's a huge risk, based on everything we've seen until now.

That's fair enough on the complaint of flip flopping of strategies. But I'm failing to see what the huge risk in signing ready now quality is at the expense of young players who we have no idea if they are going to be that good.....

 

[revlis]

That's fair enough on the complaint of flip flopping of strategies. But I'm failing to see what the huge risk in signing ready now quality is at the expense of young players who we have no idea if they are going to be that good.....

No, that’s definitely not my complain. On the face of it, it’s very exciting. But this is the club that signed Emerson Royal and a few months later brought in a coach who plays wingbacks. Who spent big money on N’dombele and Lo Celso and sacked Poch a few months later. Sold Brennan Johnson and didn’t sign a replacement, then sacked the manager who didn’t want him three months later.

It’ll take a little bit longer for me to fully buy into this, though I obviously hope it is the start of something big.