Jason Arday

[glasgowspur]

FWIW your graphic is a bit of a 101 'bluffer's guide' to an area of psychiatric medicine which is complex, deep and certainly not 'one size fit all'. The graphic is an iceberg tip at best. The condition requires considerably more understanding. It's actually a fascinating condition, as is the increasing amount of diagnosis. I know there are various reasons put forth for this - I have a (wholly unproven BTW) feeling that the proliferation of electronics, social media and shortened human attention span has added significantly to the load.

With regards to Aday, I really know very little about him. The story you posted does not present him in the best light.

Not to take it hugely off topic or anything, but I find the approaches to people on the spectrum really weird.
The one size fits all is doesn't work at any level of life, and those who are speaking up for or "defending" (sorry, horrible phrase, best I can explain it though) rightly will flag up that you can't place those on the spectrum into nice little pigeon holes.
However, when those on the spectrum are portrayed in the media there's always cries of "oh they wouldn't do that or behave like that".
Well isn't that pigeon holing?
Isn't the fact that they are all individuals with their own quirks and behaviours what you (not you per se steph) trying to tell us.
We're all different, enjoy it, embrace it, stop analysing it.

Sorry for taking it down another route and hopefully my babbling is semi coherent.

 

[thfcsteff]

Well we can. He has shown a clear pattern of behaviour.

I am not sure what you are looking for in this discussion?
You posted the story.
It seems most people (well, I'll speak for myself here) have said they know little about the specifics of the case, that based on the story it is indeed poor form, and that overall there is more info to be ingested for a true overall viewpoint.
I am not sure you fully gauge what autism, and it's wide-range of potential affects/conditions/scenarios, is about TBH? I could be wrong, however all your comments on it suggest a cursory take on the subject.

 

[thfcsteff]

Not to take it hugely off topic or anything, but I find the approaches to people on the spectrum really weird.
The one size fits all is doesn't work at any level of life, and those who are speaking up for or "defending" (sorry, horrible phrase, best I can explain it though) rightly will flag up that you can't place those on the spectrum into nice little pigeon holes.
However, when those on the spectrum are portrayed in the media there's always cries of "oh they wouldn't do that or behave like that".
Well isn't that pigeon holing?
Isn't the fact that they are all individuals with their own quirks and behaviours what you (not you per se steph) trying to tell us.
We're all different, enjoy it, embrace it, stop analysing it.

Sorry for taking it down another route and hopefully my babbling is semi coherent.

100% agree on pigeon holes. Or the subsequent actions and reactions of people on the spectrum. As you said, every person and situation is different. There are shared patterns and traits, absolutely, but there are broad assumptions made in general public perception and media as to how autistic people behave and 'are', which are not intentionally harmful of course, but do add to the clouds of misinformation surrounding the subject.

FWIW, I think a fuller understanding of the various elements and ingredients along the autism spectrum can often lead to massive relief for many who have struggled unnecessarily for years (anxiety, for example, often has relation to HFA). And I agree that we are all different, and that we should celebrate that more.

 

[robp135]

I am not sure what you are looking for in this discussion?
You posted the story.

It’s an interesting story.

It seems most people (well, I'll speak for myself here) have said they know little about the specifics of the case, that based on the story it is indeed poor form, and that overall there is more info to be ingested for a true overall viewpoint.

I think specifics are quite well detailed now to be honest. Certainly to the point where we can make a judgement that he is a pathological liar vs someone that just exaggerated in a few places. Still think Cambridge is the biggest villain here though.

I am not sure you fully gauge what autism, and it's wide-range of potential affects/conditions/scenarios, is about TBH? I could be wrong, however all your comments on it suggest a cursory take on the subject.

Can’t agree with that. Suspect if we discussed Autism further we would have a lot more agreement than disagreeent.

I have several family members who are autistic and their place in the spectrum is wide ranging. Beleive I have mentioned nephew is on the extreme end of the spectrum although I question that.

I actually think I have Autistic traits myself and had I been born earlier I may hage been diagnosed I guess as high functioning. But I am 40 so pre date that being common. Which is another reason to be suspicious of Ardays detailed diagnosis that would have happened in 1988 based on his story.

I said that Arday may have been lying about this as well based on something I had read years ago. You challenged that which made me research further and everything I am reading suggests the type of lies and actions of Arday would be extremly uncommon for someone that’s high functioning autistic and that fits with.

Lying and manipulating people as effectively as Arday did for decades requires social nuance and ability to manage people’s expectations that would be uncommon for anyone that high functioning Autistic. Typically there would be a preference for clear rules, consistency, and straightforward communication. Would also not be the only traits he has shown that are inconsistent with high functioning autism.

Add in the clear pattern of telling lies, it’s completely fair to question whether or not the autism diagnosis is a reality. And I am doing that within a sub forum of a Spurs forum that he will never read nor will anyone with any influence over his life beyond this weeks exposure.

I actually think it’s a compliment to Autistic people. Lying is not a skill that should be celebrated. If anything its noble that they are are often honest to a fault.

 

[thfcsteff]

It’s an interesting story.



I think specifics are quite well detailed now to be honest. Certainly to the point where we can make a judgement that he is a pathological liar vs someone that just exaggerated in a few places. Still think Cambridge is the biggest villain here though.

I am uncomfortable making such a judgement based on how little I know.

Can’t agree with that. Suspect if we discussed Autism further we would have a lot more agreement than disagreeent.

I have several family members who are autistic and their place in the spectrum is wide ranging. Beleive I have mentioned nephew is on the extreme end of the spectrum although I question that.

I actually think I have Autistic traits myself and had I been born earlier I may hage been diagnosed I guess as high functioning. But I am 40 so pre date that being common. Which is another reason to be suspicious of Ardays detailed diagnosis that would have happened in 1988 based on his story.

It was a diagnosis back then. I have no idea as to the veracity of his claim.
Just to say, HFA includes things such as 'masking' which can get quite deep and nuanced.

I said that Arday may have been lying about this as well based on something I had read years ago. You challenged that which made me research further and everything I am reading suggests the type of lies and actions of Arday would be extremly uncommon for someone that’s high functioning autistic and that fits with.

Lying and manipulating people as effectively as Arday did for decades requires social nuance and ability to manage people’s expectations that would be uncommon for anyone that high functioning Autistic. Typically there would be a preference for clear rules, consistency, and straightforward communication. Would also not be the only traits he has shown that are inconsistent with high functioning autism.

I would look deeper into the concept of 'masking'. There is also a deeper root here regarding HFA and lying which has nothing to do with essentially 'doing' something to others more than it is about self-protection for various reasons unique to the individual. As for your 'preferences', absolutely...and this is where the 'masking' comes in. There are, IMO, many HFA people in society who remain undiagnosed precisely because of their HF traits. Indeed, many of these people get labelled as arseholes, etc. Of course some are, indeed, that (LOL) and many can project arsehole tendencies due to various factors.

Add in the clear pattern of telling lies, it’s completely fair to question whether or not the autism diagnosis is a reality. And I am doing that within a sub forum of a Spurs forum that he will never read nor will anyone with any influence over his life beyond this weeks exposure.

Great.
Have at it.
I think part of this is you speaking to yourself? I don't think anyone has suggested your questioning anything is fair or unfair have they?

I actually think it’s a compliment to Autistic people. Lying is not a skill that should be celebrated. If anything its noble that they are are often honest to a fault.

Again, I would suggest you might want to investigate the use of 'lying' in these contexts. It's simply not that black and white. In fact, and this is a tangent, there is a fascinating debate to be had on memory nd the fact that memories are consistently reconstructive (there's a ton of papers on it out there) and mnemory in HFA people is whole other raft of reading and potential acceptance/understanding. Perhaps the more interesting angle on a discussion like this, is how far it is legitimate to give people 'a pass' in such situations versus how much they could really control? I have close close experience of watching someone with HFA try to make certain traits 'mutable' and being frustrated until the greater tool kit which came with diagnosis helped them. Now, add HFA to the potential superpower that is ADHD, and you have yourself a bundle of fun

Back to Aday. I suppose it comes down to how much we really know about him. I'd say there are several very pressurized elements, and again, based on what you posted I'd agree that the university were a huge, huge part of the problem/potential scandal.

 

[robp135]

I am uncomfortable making such a judgement based on how little I know.




It was a diagnosis back then. I have no idea as to the veracity of his claim.
Just to say, HFA includes things such as 'masking' which can get quite deep and nuanced.





I would look deeper into the concept of 'masking'. There is also a deeper root here regarding HFA and lying which has nothing to do with essentially 'doing' something to others more than it is about self-protection for various reasons unique to the individual. As for your 'preferences', absolutely...and this is where the 'masking' comes in. There are, IMO, many HFA people in society who remain undiagnosed precisely because of their HF traits. Indeed, many of these people get labelled as arseholes, etc. Of course some are, indeed, that (LOL) and many can project arsehole tendencies due to various factors.


Great.
Have at it.
I think part of this is you speaking to yourself? I don't think anyone has suggested your questioning anything is fair or unfair have they?





Again, I would suggest you might want to investigate the use of 'lying' in these contexts. It's simply not that black and white. In fact, and this is a tangent, there is a fascinating debate to be had on memory nd the fact that memories are consistently reconstructive (there's a ton of papers on it out there) and mnemory in HFA people is whole other raft of reading and potential acceptance/understanding. Perhaps the more interesting angle on a discussion like this, is how far it is legitimate to give people 'a pass' in such situations versus how much they could really control? I have close close experience of watching someone with HFA try to make certain traits 'mutable' and being frustrated until the greater tool kit which came with diagnosis helped them. Now, add HFA to the potential superpower that is ADHD, and you have yourself a bundle of fun

Back to Aday. I suppose it comes down to how much we really know about him. I'd say there are several very pressurized elements, and again, based on what you posted I'd agree that the university were a huge, huge part of the problem/potential scandal.

I am aware of masking but my understanding has always been that masking does not typically include lying and the main motivation would be to hide autism?

Which would the opposite of Arday who championed his Autism as a central part of his story arc. But maybe there is more to it which you can share?

What we know as confirmed lies he has told.

• Joined the professional snooker tour aged 10
• A member of a professional football academy.
• Played professional football. Clubs not named.
• Was part of the TV series Seven Up, which tracked a group of seven year olds as they grew up, airing first 21 years before he was born
• Ran 30 marathons in 35 days
• The last 9 on a broken leg swollen to twice its size
• Ran 600 miles in 6 days. Later clarified to be 12 days.
• Raised a total of £5.5m raised for 70+ charities
• Those invovled are under NDA so cannot verify
• Multiple cases of plagiarism. Most notably his 401-page PhD on reflective practice which had 100+ passages matching another student's 2009 thesis along 188 sentences come back identical or near identical.
• Achieved various other degrees and academic qualifications
• Installed water points in South America & Africa for WaterAid
• To have been a professor at Glasgow University
• To have been a visiting professor at Ohio State University
• A masked man with a knife cornered him in on campus
• Twice. Did not report to the police.
• A severed pig's head arrived at his parents home. Refered to it as a modern day lynching.
• Police told him the traced it to a butcher who sold a “whole hog" that morning.

 

[thfcsteff]

I am aware of masking but my understanding has always been that masking does not typically include lying and the main motivation would be to hide autism?

Which would the opposite of Arday who championed his Autism as a central part of his story arc. But maybe there is more to it which you can share?

What we know as confirmed lies he has told.

• Joined the professional snooker tour aged 10
• A member of a professional football academy.
• Played professional football. Clubs not named.
• Was part of the TV series Seven Up, which tracked a group of seven year olds as they grew up, airing first 21 years before he was born
• Ran 30 marathons in 35 days
• The last 9 on a broken leg swollen to twice its size
• Ran 600 miles in 6 days. Later clarified to be 12 days.
• Raised a total of £5.5m raised for 70+ charities
• Those invovled are under NDA so cannot verify
• Multiple cases of plagiarism. Most notably his 401-page PhD on reflective practice which had 100+ passages matching another student's 2009 thesis along 188 sentences come back identical or near identical.
• Achieved various other degrees and academic qualifications
• Installed water points in South America & Africa for WaterAid
• To have been a professor at Glasgow University
• To have been a visiting professor at Ohio State University
• A masked man with a knife cornered him in on campus
• Twice. Did not report to the police.
• A severed pig's head arrived at his parents home. Refered to it as a modern day lynching.
• Police told him the traced it to a butcher who sold a “whole hog" that morning.

Read into masking more if you're interested. Again, your definition of 'masking' is cursory, and assumes someone knows the full extent of their autism/that they're even autistic.
IF autism is an area you wish to explore further, I wholly encourage you to do so.
I would further encourage you to look into the concepts behind how autisic people process memory (as a side-bar there are also interesting things to read regarding memory manipulation).

Honestly?
Your interest in this story, the levels to which it appears to go, and your continued engagement with the autism side of this, is genuinely not of interest to me.
It is a sad story in the sense that he has lied and that the university appears to have allowed it, meaning many legtimate scholars and students of his ilk will now have to run a gauntlet of suspicion.
That is as far as it goes (for me anyway)...and I say this not as a slight or perforative, simply me being honest.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

Well he has resigned now, which is no shock

 

[robp135]

Well he has resigned now, which is no shock

Can’t make it up….well.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

Can’t make it up….well.

View attachment 23068

Smart use, no one wastes their time writing speeches or long emails anymore

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

This got me to thinking about the whole CV process for jobs and you have to say, the whole trust whats on a CV and take only a couple of references is a really terrible system open to abuse isn't it. I am thinking back to jobs I have had and I don't think to my knowledge that my CV has been checked and checked again, I know from my experiencing on hiring that before I implemented checks and different systems they were not checking beyond two references.

Makes me wonder how many people are out there in jobs that they acquired with some creative writing

 

[glorygloryeze]

This got me to thinking about the whole CV process for jobs and you have to say, the whole trust whats on a CV and take only a couple of references is a really terrible system open to abuse isn't it. I am thinking back to jobs I have had and I don't think to my knowledge that my CV has been checked and checked again, I know from being on the hire side, one for a major marketing firm in London we didn't check beyond two references.

Makes me wonder how many people are out there in jobs that they acquired with some creative writing

You've been a Spurs fan for many years, so you know there are loads...

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

You've been a Spurs fan for many years, so you know there are loads...

With some intuitive web systems that pick up things from your history I can tell a few on here who have lied about their professions or extent of their expertise and experiences because they have come up on my linkedin.........weirdly

 

[glorygloryeze]

With some intuitive web systems that pick up things from your history I can tell a few on here who have lied about their professions and experiences because they have come up on my linkedin.........weirdly

Haha, i was just thinking of some of the club's employees...didn't even think about us fans lol

I do suspect that there are many who don't have any checks at all as they go between certain levels. It's at the pinnacle of certain professions or organisations that it is assumed that the 'gatekeeping' is so rigid as to make it almost impossible for imposters to get through. With the advent of AI and tools to write personal statements etc those assumptions i guess need to be reviewed big time...

I guess those that are routinely thorough have less to worry about than others..

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

Haha, i was just thinking of some of the club's employees...didn't even think about us fans lol

I do suspect that there are many who don't have any checks at all as they go between certain levels. It's at the pinnacle of certain professions or organisations that it is assumed that the 'gatekeeping' is so rigid as to make it almost impossible for imposters to get through. With the advent of AI and tools to write personal statements etc those assumptions i guess need to be reviewed big time...

I guess those that are routinely thorough have less to worry about than others..

Yeh when you get to a certain level those decisions become easier because you generally hire from proven talent in competition companies. Word of mouth helps.

Beyond that though I think its easily open to manipulation

 

[Gutter Boy]

This got me to thinking about the whole CV process for jobs and you have to say, the whole trust whats on a CV and take only a couple of references is a really terrible system open to abuse isn't it. I am thinking back to jobs I have had and I don't think to my knowledge that my CV has been checked and checked again, I know from my experiencing on hiring that before I implemented checks and different systems they were not checking beyond two references.

Makes me wonder how many people are out there in jobs that they acquired with some creative writing

Academic CVs are different. They are pretty much just a list of research publications and grants. These are often almost just measured (how many, how much), although its all independently verifiable (been extensively peer reviewed to be published/awarded)

Sometimes applicants will nominate their best couple of articles for the recruitment panel to read through a quality lens

They will also have to do presentations, often to the whole department

Basically its quite rigorous and can't be based on unsubstantiated claims

Oxbridge are a bit out of step with the rest of the sector though. They'll still employ people because they went to Eton and their uncle is the 95th Duke of Rutland

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

Academic CVs are different. They are pretty much just a list of research publications and grants. These are often almost just measured (how many, how much), although its all independently verifiable (been extensively peer reviewed to be published/awarded)

Sometimes applicants will nominate their best couple of articles for the recruitment panel to read through a quality lens

They will also have to do presentations, often to the whole department

Basically its quite rigorous and can't be based on unsubstantiated claims

Oxbridge are a bit out of step with the rest of the sector though. They'll still employ people because they went to Eton and their uncle is the 95th Duke of Rutland

No doubt but thats not the case for alot of jobs in the wider world

 

[robp135]

This got me to thinking about the whole CV process for jobs and you have to say, the whole trust whats on a CV and take only a couple of references is a really terrible system open to abuse isn't it. I am thinking back to jobs I have had and I don't think to my knowledge that my CV has been checked and checked again, I know from my experiencing on hiring that before I implemented checks and different systems they were not checking beyond two references.

Makes me wonder how many people are out there in jobs that they acquired with some creative writing

I remember when I came back to London for a bit being convinced I wouldn’t get a job as when the employer would want to my references and degrees they would have to call the US and they wouldn’t bother…..reality is they just don’t bother.

 

[thfcsteff]

This got me to thinking about the whole CV process for jobs and you have to say, the whole trust whats on a CV and take only a couple of references is a really terrible system open to abuse isn't it. I am thinking back to jobs I have had and I don't think to my knowledge that my CV has been checked and checked again, I know from my experiencing on hiring that before I implemented checks and different systems they were not checking beyond two references.

Makes me wonder how many people are out there in jobs that they acquired with some creative writing

I'd say a lot! I mean, to extend this concept further, the amount of trumpers who have bluiffed their way up and up is staggering.

 

[thfcsteff]

I remember when I came back to London for a bit being convinced I wouldn’t get a job as when the employer would want to my references and degrees they would have to call the US and they wouldn’t bother…..reality is they just don’t bother.

Sadly seems to be the case doesn't it.