LutonSpurs
Eric Dear
The issue is the Likud party. Nor Bibi alone. And the state of Israel is guilty of genocide imo. Not jsut him.
-
Dear Guest, Please note that adult content is not permitted on this forum. We have had our Google ads disabled at times due to some posts that were found from some time ago. Please do not post adult content and if you see any already on the forum, please report the post so that we can deal with it. Adult content is allowed in the glory hole - you will have to request permission to access it. Thanks, scara
Israel Gaza
- Thread starter WhoopWhoop
- Start date
The issue is the Likud party. Nor Bibi alone. And the state of Israel is guilty of genocide imo. Not jsut him.
kb 1984
Richard Gough
Start with Netanyahu & work your way down. You can't blame the whole state there will be many good people working inside the government. Not every Israeli is evil just like not everyone in Gaza is Hamas.
He has now applied for a pardon before being found guilty of corruption says it all really. Wil be interesting to see what the Israeli president does next
Last edited:
LutonSpurs
Eric Dear
The party literally has a policy of genocide.
kb 1984
Richard Gough
See your hatered for the party won't allow you to believe there are good people inside it. Like in the UK you have to follow party lines doesn't mean you agree with it.
When we have been in wars how many politicians didn't agree with it but voted for it because the party told them to. It doesn't make them bad people
Lost Mango
Steve Hodge
It sort of does.
There are always people who manage to vote against their party at times of war. They take the consequences of voting with their moral conviction. If not explicitly bad, it makes the rest colluders and morally bankrupt.
LutonSpurs
Eric Dear
Look at the manifesto the Likud party got voted in with. Formed with. Then understand my view?
LutonSpurs
Eric Dear
Here is the key positions of the party you think I shouldn't abhor
Israeli Sovereignty
The original 1977 platform, which largely guides the party's principles, stated that "between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty". This position has been reaffirmed by politicians as recently as 2024.
Opposition to a Palestinian State
Likud's platforms have historically "flatly reject[ed] the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river". Palestinians are allowed self-governance in some areas, but security and foreign affairs remain under Israeli control.
United Jerusalem
The party considers a united and undivided Jerusalem the eternal capital of Israel and opposes its division.
Settlements Likud views Jewish settlement in all parts of the Land of Israel (including the West Bank, referred to as Judea and Samaria) as a core Zionist value and a national security asset, and it supports strengthening and developing these communities.
Borders
The Jordan River is claimed as the permanent eastern border of the State of Israel.
National Security Likud emphasizes a strong military, a hardline stance against organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah, and the need for security arrangements in any peace agreement.
Economy The party generally advocates for free-market capitalism, including tax cuts, privatization of government companies, and free trade.
Jewish Identity
In 2018, Likud lawmakers passed a controversial Nation-State law which declares Israel the "nation-state of the Jewish people" and views the development of Jewish settlement as a national value.
Israeli Sovereignty
The original 1977 platform, which largely guides the party's principles, stated that "between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty". This position has been reaffirmed by politicians as recently as 2024.
Opposition to a Palestinian State
Likud's platforms have historically "flatly reject[ed] the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river". Palestinians are allowed self-governance in some areas, but security and foreign affairs remain under Israeli control.
United Jerusalem
The party considers a united and undivided Jerusalem the eternal capital of Israel and opposes its division.
Settlements Likud views Jewish settlement in all parts of the Land of Israel (including the West Bank, referred to as Judea and Samaria) as a core Zionist value and a national security asset, and it supports strengthening and developing these communities.
Borders
The Jordan River is claimed as the permanent eastern border of the State of Israel.
National Security Likud emphasizes a strong military, a hardline stance against organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah, and the need for security arrangements in any peace agreement.
Economy The party generally advocates for free-market capitalism, including tax cuts, privatization of government companies, and free trade.
Jewish Identity
In 2018, Likud lawmakers passed a controversial Nation-State law which declares Israel the "nation-state of the Jewish people" and views the development of Jewish settlement as a national value.
kb 1984
Richard Gough
@LutonSpurs is suggesting every member of the party wants genocide I doubt that. there will be good people in that party.
Yes but most follow party lines it doesn't make them bad people they might be genuinely unsure as to what to do that doesn't make they colluders or morally bankrupt. Luckily me & you will never have to make the hardest decision a politician will ever have to make sending young men & women to war
Out of curiosity does that make me morally bankrupt if I fight in a war I might not agree with.
LutonSpurs
Eric Dear
The manifesto is there to see. If you join and prop up a party with a genocidal manifesto I'm not sure you deserve grace.
And I know the last point wasn't at me but joining a bad war historically hasn't been kind to people. Although not all people in the army can be held individually responsible. Moral bankruptcy is a huge label. From your posts you clearly aren't.
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
Would you say vote for a Tory party with a manifesto pledge to clear all the Catholics out of Northern Ireland? Could you hold your nose, if the alternative was a centre left government?
kb 1984
Richard Gough
I don't vote for any major party I have voted independent in the last two elections & yes she won both times before that I paid the fine for not voting
As for your question if I was a tory I would fight inside the tent to change the manifesto. that doesn't make me a bad person. I would also not care in that situation if Labor won
Last edited:
Rorschach
Fanny Walden
The leadership of Likud has genocidal intent. That should be enough for someone to leave the party, and if they choose not to, then just maybe they don't feel strongly about it. I've no doubt there is a certain amount of cognitive dissonance at play, but to stay is to be complicit IMO.
I've never served, but I assume is not as easy to leave the armed services if you disagree with the intent of a war. So that comparison is not really accurate. And as the US is showing right now, there are illegal orders that should not be followed. The IDF have even less compunctions about committing war crimes. So if the political party of which you are a part are engaged or is directing such acts of 'moral bankruptcy' then maybe you should leave it, IMO.
I've never served, but I assume is not as easy to leave the armed services if you disagree with the intent of a war. So that comparison is not really accurate. And as the US is showing right now, there are illegal orders that should not be followed. The IDF have even less compunctions about committing war crimes. So if the political party of which you are a part are engaged or is directing such acts of 'moral bankruptcy' then maybe you should leave it, IMO.
Last edited:
kb 1984
Richard Gough
Who said anything about leaving the army I would never do that. I was asking if I was morally bankrupt if & it's a big if I disagree with a war & still participate in that war. That's what the poster was accusing politicians of who towed the party line. does he judge the soldiers by that same standard
As for illegal orders do you honestly believe a soldier walks up to his commanding officer & says are these orders legal. That's not how the military works. So American soldiers would follow orders as they should or face a court Marshall. You are not nieave enough to believe individual soldiers decide what is legal or illegal.
Or you can stay in the party & fight for change sometimes walking away achieves nothing
kb 1984
Richard Gough
I respect your position & your pov but I am never going to convince you that good people might be in the party so I will step aside. I think we can both hope that a long lasting peace comes about sooner rather than later
LutonSpurs
Eric Dear
Of course but there is zero evidence of anyone member of the Likud cabinet not being genocidal. Hope has to be based on something brother.
I do appreciate your manner of debate bro.
Finney Is Back
Barry Daines
So does that work the other way with Hamas getting voted in by the people of Gaza?
LutonSpurs
Eric Dear
I'm talking about the Likud government. So yes it applies to Hamas. Maybe read what I wrote
Finney Is Back
Barry Daines
Apologies. I had read your comment about the party’s manifesto that they had been voted in with and misconstrued that you were putting the blame for the party’s actions with the Israeli citizens.
Rorschach
Fanny Walden
The point I made was simply that it easier to leave a party if it is 'morally bankrupt' and not so easy to leave active service if you view a war as 'morally bankrupt'. Nothing more. To me there is a line somewhere where you can disagree on a party's political direction and try to change it, as you said, or when you need to leave. I would say that line is a long way back in the mirror for Likud but we might see that differently.
As for the illegal orders, I was referring to Hegseth obviously. This point on the legality of his orders has also been made by US senators like Kelly and others. As I said, I have not served and would have no idea the dynamics at play for following orders that were knowingly illegal versus refusing orders, but I am genuinely interested in this. Would you not face court-martial for both? Would it not be reasonable to assume that someone in the chain of command knows that double-tapping a sinking vessel is an illegal order?
edit: this popped up in my feed just now where Kelly is talking about the illegal orders.
Mark Kelly says troops ‘can tell’ what orders are illegal amid Pentagon probe
Sen. Mark Kelly (D-Ariz.) joins Meet the Press as the Pentagon investigates him for a video he recorded with other Democratic lawmakers urging service member...
share.google
Last edited:
LutonSpurs
Eric Dear
Thanks. And my point was totally valid. If Hamas need dismantling so does the Likud party. Both have committed war crimes.