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Guglielmo Vicario

Jurgen the German said:
I think you’re letting him off too lightly. As Finney said, he has no physical presence whatsoever and typically stays rooted to his line. He also conceded a number of long-range efforts last season that were stoppable, despite all the talk of his famed shot-stopping ability. Not to mention his poor footwork and general nervousness, which can have a knock-on effect on the entire back four when the goalkeeper lacks confidence.
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We can agree to disagree mate.

I think Kinsky has a way to go to prove he has the raw shot stopping of Vicario, last season none of us know how long he was carrying the hernia issue (not making excuses but it certainly would give a reason for some of it), and the physical presence stuff is almost completely negated by most keepers just getting outright fouled out of plays in the league for the last two seasons (yet, it's only Vicario that seems to be weak), it's flimflam and it will be stopped.

I'm quite sure in Italy, with defenders that actually defend (no suicidal high line brick), and who cover up the rebounds/scraps, he will do well, and I wish him the best.

For me, the only time I can actively dislike our players is if they don't give a brick, don't put in the work, don't support the team, and whatever Vicario's limits were as a player, not giving what he could, or not caring, is not on the list. Look at how he celebrated our wins at end of season from bench (and he probably already knew he was gone)
 
monkeybarry said:
We don't know that yet.

We are about to see Kinsky for his first full PL season - it will have ups and downs, it will show his brilliance and expose his flaws. We have no idea if he can be consistent yet.

I've been impressed with Kinsky since his first game for us, and he's clearly worked hard the last 1.5 seasons to improve his game and his stature. He's 23 now and looks like a man.

23 is a good age to start a PL career as a GK, but is also young. We will need to be patient and understanding.

Whether he's better - right now I think he's probably equal, but seems to be a more positive and balanced character.
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For clarity. From the purely technical aspects of Goalkeeping Kinsky is already a better keeper. And by a fair distance as well. In part down to Vicario not being very good but mainly because Kinsky is a very good technical goalkeeper.

The distribution is obvious and doesn’t need an explanation. Kinsky is better with his weak foot than Vicario.

Positioning is the big one I have mentioned. Both in terms of where there stand relative to the ball, goal and angle the shots being taken from as well as hand and body shape. The split second save that Kinsky made against Leeds had some luck to it but because his hand shape is so on point he makes the save. If Vicario gets lucky with where the ball goes in that situation it still goes in simply based on the position of his hands and body at that moment.

His decision making is better. His selection on whether to catch, punch, stay on the line, come off the line, or challenge for the ball is typically on point and there is no hesitation like you have with Vicario who both hesitates and makes the wrong decision far too often.

Kinskys footwork is way ahead of Vicario. Combined with the positioning he only needs to make small adjustments to make saves vs Vicario. It means when Vicario does pull of the save it looks more spectacular. Think the same way an elite Central Defender doesnt need to slide tackle in they just get their positioning and timing right.

1on1 technique is one of the biggest gaps between them. In part due to Kinsky being bigger. But again his superior technique as a goalkeeper means get gets big and times his movement better than Vicario would.

That size also helps with with set pieces. Kinsky is more commanding in the box even if Vicario did improve that side of his game from when he first joined.

That size does hurt Kinsky in terms of getting down low to and to low long shots. With that size he is also not an elite athleticaly like some other large goalkeepers like Donnarumma, Courtois or Neuer. They are trully elite athletes who would have probably been a top tier Centre Back or played other sports professionally had they chosen that path as kids.

I have seen nothing to suggest that how Kinsky communicates to his defense is different to Vicario.

Really it’s about experience. Vicario of course has the edge. But it also tells us his ceiling is a lower mid table level goalkeeper. We’ve seen him in major games like the Europa Legaue Final keep a clean sheet although he did make a major error in that game and was saved by VDV.

Kinsky over the 2-3 seasons may be worse than that and we cannot say with 100% certainly. But that’s only about whether he can play to a high level consistently. Mentality wise there are no concerns and that is where the mistake in Madrid and the back end of last season comes in to play.

Can you tell me a club as big as Spurs thats been relegated or nearly got relegated this century? If so, did they have a 23 year old backup Goalkeeper play the final 7 games? Were they coming off the most high profile Goalkeeping calamity performance of the season?

Thats why I am not concerned about his lack of experience and consistenty. Because his mentality is absolutely proven to elite and that is the biggest driver in consistent performances.
 
Raziel said:
We can agree to disagree mate.

I think Kinsky has a way to go to prove he has the raw shot stopping of Vicario, last season none of us know how long he was carrying the hernia issue (not making excuses but it certainly would give a reason for some of it), and the physical presence stuff is almost completely negated by most keepers just getting outright fouled out of plays in the league for the last two seasons (yet, it's only Vicario that seems to be weak), it's flimflam and it will be stopped.

I'm quite sure in Italy, with defenders that actually defend (no suicidal high line brick), and who cover up the rebounds/scraps, he will do well, and I wish him the best.

For me, the only time I can actively dislike our players is if they don't give a brick, don't put in the work, don't support the team, and whatever Vicario's limits were as a player, not giving what he could, or not caring, is not on the list. Look at how he celebrated our wins at end of season from bench (and he probably already knew he was gone)
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Oh, I don’t disagree that it’s not a lack of effort or desire. But I don’t think that excuses his flaws either. I also take your point about how lenient the officiating can be towards keepers at times, but that doesn’t change the fact that he’s too weak and seldom comes for the ball, especially when he needs to come through a crowd of players and clear the decks.

And, as others have highlighted, I really don’t like the way he picks on younger players. He rarely seems to take responsibility for his own mistakes. He was still throwing his arms up in the air after the Fulham rooster up, despite it being 100% his fault.
 
robp135 said:
For clarity. From the purely technical aspects of Goalkeeping Kinsky is already a better keeper. And by a fair distance as well. In part down to Vicario not being very good but mainly because Kinsky is a very good technical goalkeeper.

The distribution is obvious and doesn’t need an explanation. Kinsky is better with his weak foot than Vicario.

Positioning is the big one I have mentioned. Both in terms of where there stand relative to the ball, goal and angle the shots being taken from as well as hand and body shape. The split second save that Kinsky made against Leeds had some luck to it but because his hand shape is so on point he makes the save. If Vicario gets lucky with where the ball goes in that situation if still goes in simply based on the position of his hands and body at that moment.

His decision making is better. His selection on whether to catch, punch, stay on the line, come off the line, or challenge for the ball is typically on point and there is no hesitation unlike Vicario.

Kinskys footwork is way ahead of Vicario. Combined with the positions he only needs to make small adjustments to make saves vs Vicario. It means when Vicario does pull of the save it looks more spectacular. Think the same way an elite Central Defender doesn’t need to slide tackle in they just get their positioning and timing right.

1on1 technique is one of the biggest gaps between them. In part due to Kinsky being bigger. But again his superior technique as a goalkeeper means get gets big and times his movement better than Vicario would.

That size also helps with with set pieces. Kinsky is more commanding in the box even if Vicario did improve that side of his game from when he first joined.

That size does hurt Kinsky in terms of getting down low to long shots. With that size he is also not an elite athletic in the way some other large goalkeepers like Donnarumma, Courtois or Neuer. They are trully elite athletes who would have probably been a top tier Centre Back or played other sports professionally had they chosen that path as kids.

I have seen nothing to suggest that how Kinsky communicates to his defense is different to Vicario.

Really it’s about experience. Vicario of course has the edge. But it also tells us his ceiling is a lower mid table level goalkeeper. We’ve seen him in major games like the Europa Legaue Final keep a clean sheet although he did make a major error in that game and was saved by VDV.

Kinsky over the 2-3 seasons may be worse than that and we cannot say with 100% certainly. But that’s only about whether he can play to a high level consistently. Mentality wise there are no concerns and that is where the mistake in Madrid and the back end of last season comes in to play.

Can you tell me a club as big as Spurs thats been relegated or nearly got relegated this century? If so, did they have a 23 year old backup Goalkeeper play the final 7 games? Were they coming off the most high profile Goalkeeping calamity performance of the season?

Thats why I am not concerned about his lack of experience and consistenty. Because his mentality is absolutely proven to elite and that is the biggest driver in consistent performances.
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I disagree on the positioning, brick stopped and 1 on 1's - mainly because of sample size.
18 months ago Kinskys shot stopping looked Championship level at best - he looks to have improved immensely; however that can only be judged over a sustained period of games and seasons.
I think Kinsky has the basis to be top top level - but we have no reference point for consistency for Kinsky. His ability with the ball at his feet looks consistent - I remember those first few games....he was the best passer in our team 😆
Completely agree re; his attitude, and I'm not concerned about Kinsky - I wanted him as first choice ages ago. But it is still very possible he won't be consistent. Fingers crossed not.
Also - he has good hair!

Vicario "on his day" was one of the best in the world, but he was inconsistent, especially on balls into the box. His reflex saves, however, are top drawer consistently.
They are different style keepers, so many of those comparisons above are moot.
 
monkeybarry said:
I disagree on the positioning, brick stopped and 1 on 1's - mainly because of sample size.
18 months ago Kinskys shot stopping looked Championship level at best - he looks to have improved immensely; however that can only be judged over a sustained period of games and seasons.
I think Kinsky has the basis to be top top level - but we have no reference point for consistency for Kinsky. His ability with the ball at his feet looks consistent - I remember those first few games....he was the best passer in our team 😆
Completely agree re; his attitude, and I'm not concerned about Kinsky - I wanted him as first choice ages ago. But it is still very possible he won't be consistent. Fingers crossed not.
Also - he has good hair!

Vicario "on his day" was one of the best in the world, but he was inconsistent, especially on balls into the box. His reflex saves, however, are top drawer consistently.
They are different style keepers, so many of those comparisons above are moot.
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Its fair to say its a small sample size but you also have to consider the context of that sample size. These were 7 of the most high pressure games possible. Kinsky we hope wont play under that level of pressure again for a sustained period until we are making a title challenge.
 
One thing I would say is that it does look like Juve will be using Vic as 1st choice. Lots of rumours that current 1st choice Michele Di Gregorio is heading out on loan. Therefore a massive opportunity for Vic to impress.
 
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