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Financial Fair Play

Relaxing the FFP rules will just mean the carbon circle clubs will open up their large wallets and pull further ahead. It's no coincidence that clubs like PSG and City are rowing in behind these latest changes. Maybe as Neymar says Utd would have been favourites to win more often than not if Chelsea and later City had not been finically supported to the extent they have , but IMO this is way more palatable to having two smaller clubs skip the queue and give everyone else the finger on the way past.
 
Just seen this on SSN. Bloody disgraceful but shouldn't expect anything else really. It suits UEFA to have the clubs in the Champions League in a position to suck up any half decent players from the rest. GHod forbid that clubs outside it think they can get away with competing with them.
 
but IMO this is way more palatable to having two smaller clubs skip the queue and give everyone else the finger on the way past.

I think we feel this way because we are tottenham fans. its easy to say this knowing that we would have directly beneffited had abramovic/mansour not existed. and i thinks its mainly fans of clubs like ours (arsenal, liverpool, lyon, marseille etc) that are coming up with 'moral' arguments in this debate. i dont really think fans of any other club think there is a 'moral' debate here.

i hate to say it, but i think its just sour grapes from us lot. we are just upset that chelsea won the lottery.
 
I think we feel this way because we are tottenham fans. its easy to say this knowing that we would have directly beneffited had abramovic/mansour not existed. and i thinks its mainly fans of clubs like ours (arsenal, liverpool, lyon, marseille etc) that are coming up with 'moral' arguments in this debate. i dont really think fans of any other club think there is a 'moral' debate here.

i hate to say it, but i think its just sour grapes from us lot. we are just upset that chelsea won the lottery.

Not sour grapes at all. Disgust is a more appropriate word. I think you will find that the clubs that you have listed are the ones that have been most affected by the nouveau riche clubs so of course they are the ones that are shouting the most. The clubs a bit further down the ladder would obviously not like it either but the impact on them is not as pronounced I would say.

Whether you believe me or not, I would loose practically all interest in Spurs if we joined that group of clubs. It may be the type of person I am, but I'm in it for the journey as well as the destination. Skipping to the end of the story like these clubs have doesn't interest me. You will probably argue that you would like Spurs to be competing for the league and so we need our own generous benefactor. I would argue that if not for Chelsea and City we would already be doing that.

Am I upset that Chelsea won the lottery? Too fudging right I am. I think Abramovich and his odious club represent everything that is wrong about where football is going.
 
@Rorschach ,

as a fan, i'm in agreement with a lot of what youve said above. personally, i actually like the fact that we dont have an oligarch, and im content with our position in english and european football. just like you seem to be too. and like you, i probably wouldnt enjoy supporting us as much if we did get bought out by an oligarch.

however, at the same time, im not jealous or envious of chelsea's success tbh. they may be an odious club, but i dont think its anyone else's right to dictate how they should spend their own money. abramovic should be allowed to spend his own money how he likes imo, just as we are allowed to spend ours how we like.
 
@Rorschach ,

as a fan, i'm in agreement with a lot of what youve said above. personally, i actually like the fact that we dont have an oligarch, and im content with our position in english and european football. just like you seem to be too. and like you, i probably wouldnt enjoy supporting us as much if we did get bought out by an oligarch.

however, at the same time, im not jealous or envious of chelsea's success tbh. they may be an odious club, but i dont think its anyone else's right to dictate how they should spend their own money. abramovic should be allowed to spend his own money how he likes imo, just as we are allowed to spend ours how we like.


Well this is where we fundamentally diverge. I am not naive enough to think that money doesn't dictate the pecking order of things. Of course it does, but what I do object to is the source of the money. I draw the line in my support for a club when that club is being used to legitimise the legacy of morally reprehensible characters or as a vanity project for some rich prick who should be doing something more worthwhile with is 'hard earned' wealth. A club that grows because of its on field and resulting commercial success is a model that I am happy Spurs follows, and although the FFP regulations as of now have barred entry to the VIP section I still think through good decisions you can get there.
 
That's a fair idea Rorschach, but, show me a rich person who isn't a morally reprehensible character,(hell, I'm nowhere near rich and I crossed that line years ago, I'm as morally bankrupt as, well, as everyone else I've ever met), and if people only spent their time and money on "worthwhile" pursuits football wouldn't exist at all.
 
Well this is where we fundamentally diverge. I am not naive enough to think that money doesn't dictate the pecking order of things. Of course it does, but what I do object to is the source of the money.
I'm with you here. but its not ffp/football's business to debate the legitimacy/legallity of an owner's finances imo. thats up to the local jurisdiction. and whilst im totally with you in being concerned about the origins of some of the moneys now in football, i dont think a public forum is the best place to discuss that without concrete evidence.

I draw the line in my support for a club when that club is being used to legitimise the legacy of morally reprehensible characters or as a vanity project for some rich prick who should be doing something more worthwhile with is 'hard earned' wealth. A club that grows because of its on field and resulting commercial success is a model that I am happy Spurs follows, and although the FFP regulations as of now have barred entry to the VIP section I still think through good decisions you can get there.

I think a club can grow organically, but i think there is a glass ceiling. and clubs like us and arsenal have practically reached it imo. by definition its impossible for a club with our business model to overtake a oligarch backed team. those guys keep spending until they are better than us. so theoretically, if we were to reach their level, they would just spend again to get away. look at what happened at chelsea around 2011-2013 when their squad started ageing and were becoming uncompetitive for the title. they simply reached into abramovic's pocket and spent an infinite amount (to get back to where they 'should' be). and despite what rubbish mourinho may be coming out with re chelsea's finances atm, they will spend again when the time comes. and although not owned by a sugar daddy, man utd have done the same recently. its actually amazing, but i really beleive we couldve overtaken man utd this time round had they not had the financial capacity to distance themsleves from us. i have no doubt that Emirates Marketing Project will soon open the purse strings again too. thats what makes these clubs uncatchable for the likes of us. just as these teams seem like they are within reach, they can accelerate away.
 
Don't le arse have a billionaire lurking in the wings..

I don't understand how this FFP will stop Billionaire clubs from buying the best footballers
in the World.
And if thats the case Daniel Levy is wrong about a philanthropist not being able to help us.

Maybe someone could explain how this FFP [I did not think it was operating now!] will
stop the Billionaire Clubs grabbing all the best players?

If they have more money they just simply get out the cheque book!
 
Usmanov, an oligarch that makes Abramovich look clean, has about a 30% share in Arsenal, but the other board members have shut him out. He wrote an interesting letter proposing a better way of running Arsenal and offering investment.

I note a couple of posters have mentioned the source of money at the sugar-daddy clubs. What if Bill Gates bought a club? Would that make it more palatable?
 
Usmanov, an oligarch that makes Abramovich look clean, has about a 30% share in Arsenal, but the other board members have shut him out. He wrote an interesting letter proposing a better way of running Arsenal and offering investment.

I note a couple of posters have mentioned the source of money at the sugar-daddy clubs. What if Bill Gates bought a club? Would that make it more palatable?
No.
 
Don't le arse have a billionaire lurking in the wings..

they have two. usmanov - who has been kicked off the arsenal board. and kroenke - who is the majority shareholder. after a quick google search, usmanov seems to worth about 15billion usd, kroenke 6b usd. in comparison abramovic is worth 9b usd. however, i dont think this will matter too much in the short to medium term. kronke (and the other minority share holders) seem to be big on sustainability and profitablility, so their entire management structure of the club has been built on the 'wenger-mould'. this isnt going to change anytime soon.

I don't understand how this FFP will stop Billionaire clubs from buying the best footballers
in the World.

you are right. ffp cannot stop billionaire clubs running up huge debts. however its important to note that officially, ffp was not really about stopping these billionaire owners. it was about stopping the 'smaller' clubs from overspending and going bankrupt. this was the basis on which ffp was created. probably because the aim of stopping billionaire owners would have been illegal under eu law. in reality, ffp was about both stopping bankruptcy of small clubs and stopping a new mansour or abramovic. thats was all the traditional powerhouses of european football signed up to it. they didnt want their gravy train to be challenged.

it seems that the eu has ruled unfavourably for ffp. and so ffp will become more a set of guidelines, rather than an actual set of rules stopping clubs from running up debts imo. this is just my opinion. at the moment, no-one knows what will happen to ffp and how much it will be relaxed. this will become clearer in the next few months imo. but the fact that uefa has acknowledged that ffp (as it is) is not viable before the eu has released any concrete ruling, shows that uefa probably understand that the fight for ffp is dead. also, from what managers have said (ie. wenger) it seems possible that some of the clubs that were in favour of ffp have now decided that they are against it, possibly due to the titanic new premier league tv deals. this change in stance would make sense for clubs from countries like italy imo.

And if thats the case Daniel Levy is wrong about a philanthropist not being able to help us.

Yeah this is just unfortunate/funny timing for levy. only a couple of days after he released his end of season letter, the change in ffp was announced. to be fair to levy, i dont think we should hold this statement against him. it was always just a pr statement. arsenal and liverpool have also been sprouting bs regarding how ffp is stopping them from spending big too. and all these three clubs have been big on the fact that ffp will enable them to catch the top teams long term via good management decisions (which was also bs). ffp was used as an excuse to protect themselves from angry fans who wanted the same thing as chelsea/Emirates Marketing Project. unfortunately for these guys, the ffp excuse and hope has gone now.

but i dont think we should hold any angst. levy/enic are quite obviously doing his best for us, but theres not much more he can do imo. thats the sad reality of it. if ffp was actually enforced, long term it couldve given us a chance (to win titles). and this was the dream that levy was selling to us (when he both blamed ffp for a lack of spending, but also highlighted good long term management decisions like the new stadium). if ffp was enforced properly, good management decisions could allow a club of our size to dream of reaching the very top. thats what levy, wenger, fsg were selling to their fans. in particular, you could see how dissapointed wenger was when the relaxing of ffp was announced.

so to sum up, levy is wrong about a philanthropist not being able to help us. but more importantly, a philanthropist is now quite obviously the only thing that can take us to the next level.


Maybe someone could explain how this FFP [I did not think it was operating now!] will
stop the Billionaire Clubs grabbing all the best players?

If they have more money they just simply get out the cheque book!

As ive already mentioned above, there will probably be nothing to stop a billionaire owner now.

the problem for uefa implementing ffp was always going to be a complex one. my thoughts on the issue are as follow. fwiw, i have only read a handful of articles.

the eu are generally big on having an open market policy which would mean that the would be against ffp. however, in some industries they understand that some levels of protectionism or barriers etc are needed. this is especially true, in the case of sports. and the eu are aware of this. thats why they have turned a blind eye to the football transfer system and transfer windows: both of which restrict freedom of movement for residents of the eu (the footballers). however the bosman ruling is evidence that the eu will not just allow sport to operate how they like. the eu will stop rules within sport that they feel is strongly infringing on their policies.

moving on to ffp specifically, its important to note that in most industries, the eu would rule unfavourably on ffp. it obviously infringes on a number of eu policies as ffp does not help to promote open markets. however, we are talking about a sport here. and thats why uefa were hopeful. unfortunately for uefa (and those clubs in favour of it), the eu probably realised that if all clubs operated within the limitations of their revenue, then the same clubs would win all the time. ie. in the pl, w/o abramovic or mansour, man utd would probably have won most of the pl titles, with arsenal and possibly liverpool winning some. the same would be the case in basically every other elite european football nation. and the same set of teams would probably win the champions league too.

so if the eu were to support ffp, they would be supporting the same hegemony of clubs. and basically kill off the dreams of every other club in the process. this is not something that the eu will support, and its probably on this basis, that ffp was succesfully challenged by the likes of psg and Emirates Marketing Project. ffp would only have been supported by the eu if the winners of elite football competitions was largely random (where different teams won each year). in this scenario, the eu may have allowed ffp because a billionaire would perhaps be able to stop the competition and monopolise winning. but as it is, and as how most people predicted, ffp had little chance of being succesful.
 
Neymar ..thanks for the reply..

Well then..the so called free market holds on to how it operates which the EU holds as paramount importance to business
market forces and so on. I'm not going to pretend I understand all of this because I don't. I tried reading FFP rules
and regulations ..I don't quite have the skills to take it all in.
Anyway at the end of the day you are saying the likes of mancity chelsea can still pay huge amounts for players and
their wages. I noticed there had been some big money signings during this season.

So basically FFP doesn't change anything
really in the pecking order of who is able to buy the players as I thought?

I.m not anti Levy..we have done well in the circumstances..and have managed to sign some great players only for them
to be taken back of us off course.
I'm not so sure if having a larger stadium [that we definitely need for the fans] will help us break into the CL on a regular basis
but it should help us hold on to some of our players.

CoyS................
 
As ive already mentioned above, there will probably be nothing to stop a billionaire owner now.

the problem for uefa implementing ffp was always going to be a complex one. my thoughts on the issue are as follow. fwiw, i have only read a handful of articles.

the eu are generally big on having an open market policy which would mean that the would be against ffp. however, in some industries they understand that some levels of protectionism or barriers etc are needed. this is especially true, in the case of sports. and the eu are aware of this. thats why they have turned a blind eye to the football transfer system and transfer windows: both of which restrict freedom of movement for residents of the eu (the footballers). however the bosman ruling is evidence that the eu will not just allow sport to operate how they like. the eu will stop rules within sport that they feel is strongly infringing on their policies.

moving on to ffp specifically, its important to note that in most industries, the eu would rule unfavourably on ffp. it obviously infringes on a number of eu policies as ffp does not help to promote open markets. however, we are talking about a sport here. and thats why uefa were hopeful. unfortunately for uefa (and those clubs in favour of it), the eu probably realised that if all clubs operated within the limitations of their revenue, then the same clubs would win all the time. ie. in the pl, w/o abramovic or mansour, man utd would probably have won most of the pl titles, with arsenal and possibly liverpool winning some. the same would be the case in basically every other elite european football nation. and the same set of teams would probably win the champions league too.

so if the eu were to support ffp, they would be supporting the same hegemony of clubs. and basically kill off the dreams of every other club in the process. this is not something that the eu will support, and its probably on this basis, that ffp was succesfully challenged by the likes of psg and Emirates Marketing Project. ffp would only have been supported by the eu if the winners of elite football competitions was largely random (where different teams won each year). in this scenario, the eu may have allowed ffp because a billionaire would perhaps be able to stop the competition and monopolise winning. but as it is, and as how most people predicted, ffp had little chance of being succesful.

You're saying that the EU would be making their decisions based on grounds other than regulatory free trade and similar rules, and instead on who they think will win football titles? Seems strange to me...
 
You're saying that the EU would be making their decisions based on grounds other than regulatory free trade and similar rules, and instead on who they think will win football titles? Seems strange to me...

the eu will rule on free trade grounds wherever possible. however, they do accept that in some cases, this may not be ideal. sport is sometimes one such example.

i dont think any ruling will be explicit re "who they think will win football titles?". but i suspect that they would be against any ruling that would deny smaller clubs investment. because that would be denying them the opportunity to have access to the large revenue sources that come with being a big club.

regardless, i dont think anyone really knows what will happen. my thoughts on the issue are formed off reading articles/podcasts etc. and even those journalists/pundits dont really seem to have a great idea on what will happen. even now, noone really knows how much ffp will be "relaxed" for example. but to me, it looks as if ffp is basically dead.
 
it means the end of ffp might be approaching and levy will have to give another excuse as to why he doesnt want to go personally broke funding the club's success.
 
it means the end of ffp might be approaching and levy will have to give another excuse as to why he doesnt want to go personally broke funding the club's success.

is there a better one than that?

not that its personally his money anyway
 
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