ENIC

[thfcsteff]

He’d be a good guest I’m sure. He’s articulate and is knowledgeable about the club and the game as a whole. Surely it’s a good thing to have contrasting viewpoints and not just Gary Mabbutt esque posters who wouldn’t dare criticise the club and think they can do no wrong?

Oh I agree, I think @DubaiSpur would be a really interesting voice. Apologies to @billyiddo
if I misinterpreted the suggestion.

 

[thfcsteff]

No not trolling... (other than the Dubai comment) it'd be a good listen I'm sure.

Pre ENIC and an overview of the Sugar years leading up to sale/purchase

Post purchase up until around the Pleat caretaker season

Arnesen/Jol through to Redknapp

AVB through to Poch

Latter years Poch through to Paratichi

Paratichi through to present day


A lot of topics to sink your teeth into there I'm sure

Again apologies, I mistook your suggestion of Dubai. I agree wholeheartedly that yours is a great suggestion. I will absolutely raise it.

 

[Raziel]

Hahaha, a response I actually expected from you.

In 2014/15, we finished above Liverpool in 5th on 64 points to their 62. I mean, how many more ways would you like it written down for you to accept this is not 'moving goalposts', there was a period of time (not just a few months) where we had the edge over Liverpool and were in greater onfield ascension.

You and others keep retreating to 2017-19, yet you never acknowledge or address the questions regarding footballing decisions!
Sissoko cost 30 million
Janssen cost 17 million
N'Jie cost 12 million
N'Koudou cost 11 million
Moura cost 25 million

Here are a few of the players the manager wanted and didn't get... Mane, Winaldjum, Grealish, Maguire, Fernandes.

None of us have crystal balls so who knows if even two of them would've made a difference. I have always felt Mane and Winaldjum coming in would've been transformative.
What we can say is that the fact he decided against buying anyone for a little over a year after all that, tells us that he was tired of getting fobbed off with 'committee' choices. And we can also say that Klopp looked at that 4-1 hammering by us, and realised he'd spend the next few years behind us like the previous two unless he got VVD and Allison. His board got the sale of Coutinho done, and Klopp got the money.

Of course they've had duds; but strategcially, their 'duds' have not affected them like ours. You 'moved a goalpost or few LOL' and decided to bring up Lo Celso and N'Dombele. OK, whose fault was THAT palaver? Could it have been the fault of a chairman who at one moment spent to appease a manager he thought he wanted to keep, only to fudge him over the moment his 'lost love' whispered sweet nothings into his ear persistently? It was pathetic!

I did not say anything about a 'plot' of incompetency. I merely pointed out that we made some bad decisions with regards to potentially achieving massive things on the pitch. Off the field we are pretty untouchable, that is clear, yet I am always amazed that within that circle of praise, no-one has questioned that we chose the likes of Moussa and N'Jie instead of Mane and Winaldjum.

Again, NONE of this makes sense unless you are prepared to acknowledge that despite the financial differences, we were ahead of them in the pitch for several years, and that prudent-yet-slightly more adventurous speculation could well have ensured years of silverware and success...

Fair enough mate, as I mentioned to @Bishop we all have our viewpoints, it's been an emotional season, it's starting to feel like this current rev of conversations (for me at least) has run it's circle ..

 

[thfcsteff]

Fair enough mate, as I mentioned to @Bishop we all have our viewpoints, it's been an emotional season, it's starting to feel like this current rev of conversations (for me at least) has run it's circle ..

Agreed mate

 

[Jurgen the German]

Seriously competing = being in the CL, it is football, everything else is irrelevant.

By your own definition then we have largely failed in the years since Poch was canned. 1 appearance in 6 seasons through the league. And the PL and CL which you covet so much, we haven’t won and been close to winning also since Poch was relieved of his duties. I find it hard to to reconcile how you credit Levy and ENIC for getting to the latter stages of tournaments but it’s not on them at all when we don’t get over the line. If we win the Europa League is that mainly down to them?

 

[Muttley]

No not trolling... (other than the Dubai comment) it'd be a good listen I'm sure.

Pre ENIC and an overview of the Sugar years leading up to sale/purchase

Post purchase up until around the Pleat caretaker season

Arnesen/Jol through to Redknapp

AVB through to Poch

Latter years Poch through to Paratichi

Paratichi through to present day


A lot of topics to sink your teeth into there I'm sure

I think #Thfcsteff should do a Back to the Future version where the right decisions were made along the way and we're now the most dominant force in world football.

It would be like Captain Hindsight running Spurs. All those signings like KDB, Salah, VVD, Rodri whilst poaching kids like Saka, Bellingham, Hakimi and keeping Modric, Bale, Walker etc. The emergence of Kane, Eriksen, Dele to create a 20 year powerhouse. Martin Jol thought about like Fergie, Pep and Klopp after 20 years in charge

 

[thfcsteff]

I think #Thfcsteff should do a Back to the Future version where the right decisions were made along the way and we're now the most dominant force in world football.

It would be like Captain Hindsight running Spurs. All those signings like KDB, Salah, VVD, Rodri whilst poaching kids like Saka, Bellingham, Hakimi and keeping Modric, Bale, Walker etc. The emergence of Kane, Eriksen, Dele to create a 20 year powerhouse. Martin Jol thought about like Fergie, Pep and Klopp after 20 years in charge

There have been some amazing decisions along the way, both on and off the pitch. Bale, Dele, Gray, Bergvall to name four. And off the pitch, crikey, we've turned N17 into a cash machine and property portfolio!

Ah, now you're just being a bit cheeky aren't you! ...why not throw Allison, Van Dyk, and Haaland in there for fun too!!!

 

[Baleforce]

By your own definition then we have largely failed in the years since Poch was canned. 1 appearance in 6 seasons through the league. And the PL and CL which you covet so much, we haven’t won and been close to winning also since Poch was relieved of his duties. I find it hard to to reconcile how you credit Levy and ENIC for getting to the latter stages of tournaments but it’s not on them at all when we don’t get over the line. If we win the Europa League is that mainly down to them?

I credit ENIC with our massively raised status, some fallow years are expected, it happens to every club.

Getting over the line is on the players and the coaches, if you are good enough to get close, you are good enough to win.

 

[Jurgen the German]

I credit ENIC with our massively raised status, some fallow years are expected, it happens to every club.

Getting over the line is on the players and the coaches, if you are good enough to get close, you are good enough to win.

Not if the squad is not equipped to get over the line in the first place.

I guess the question is how many fallow years should we tolerate. They shouldn’t get a life pass, especially when we’ve not exactly got a lot of trophies to fall back as evidence of success.

 

[Baleforce]

Not if the squad is not equipped to get over the line in the first place.

I guess the question is how many fallow years should we tolerate. They shouldn’t get a life pass, especially when we’ve not exactly got a lot of trophies to fall back as evidence of success.

It’s not up to us, they own the club.

They don’t need our tolerance.

All decisions will be made based on money.

 

[Muttley]

I credit ENIC with our massively raised status, some fallow years are expected, it happens to every club.

Getting over the line is on the players and the coaches, if you are good enough to get close, you are good enough to win.

I think you have to have an intrinsic relationship between the 3 layer of a football club.

The leadership layer - we've not got this one right until recently. We watched as LFC created the perfect leadership layer with all of the right appointments to support the 1st team manager. Every thing they did was to make Klopp successful. We didn't do that. Sometimes I think that the Tavistock / ENIC complexity hinders us along with the board members taking on day to day duties when they're not good at football ops. Obviously, they are good at the other side. It's also important for the leadership layer to hire the right people in football operations. They have a history of not doing so.

The football manager - we have seen so many fail and most of the reasons have been obvious and could have been avoided in the hiring process. We tend to follow this narrative that the manager has a poison chalice and that the club is toxic. That stops us from seeing that a lot of our managers haven't been the right fit, or even of the right quality.

The players - we've spent too many years focusing on quantity rather than quality. We've had to do major overhauls as managers come and go and I don't really remember the squad being optimised once. We've also seen the wrong mentality or culture in the playing squad. They aren't operating the same way as those teams that win things. We've seen massive mental weakness, even in our very best players.

I guess this is my way of saying that I believe so much of what has happened in the past seems to be changing at the club. An inevitable manager refresh could now really elevate us. I like the leadership changes we're seeing and I believe in this young squad. Nurture it, add to it and I think we'll surprise ourselves.

 

[Baleforce]

I think you have to have an intrinsic relationship between the 3 layer of a football club.

The leadership layer - we've not got this one right until recently. We watched as LFC created the perfect leadership layer with all of the right appointments to support the 1st team manager. Every thing they did was to make Klopp successful. We didn't do that. Sometimes I think that the Tavistock / ENIC complexity hinders us along with the board members taking on day to day duties when they're not good at football ops. Obviously, they are good at the other side. It's also important for the leadership layer to hire the right people in football operations. They have a history of not doing so.

The football manager - we have seen so many fail and most of the reasons have been obvious and could have been avoided in the hiring process. We tend to follow this narrative that the manager has a poison chalice and that the club is toxic. That stops us from seeing that a lot of our managers haven't been the right fit, or even of the right quality.

The players - we've spent too many years focusing on quantity rather than quality. We've had to do major overhauls as managers come and go and I don't really remember the squad being optimised once. We've also seen the wrong mentality or culture in the playing squad. They aren't operating the same way as those teams that win things. We've seen massive mental weakness, even in our very best players.

I guess this is my way of saying that I believe so much of what has happened in the past seems to be changing at the club. An inevitable manager refresh could now really elevate us. I like the leadership changes we're seeing and I believe in this young squad. Nurture it, add to it and I think we'll surprise ourselves.

I think we optimised it last summer, than ran half of it into the ground and the treatment room.

I think there is huge promise in this squad too.

 

[Jurgen the German]

It’s not up to us, they own the club.

They don’t need our tolerance.

All decisions will be made based on money.

I realise they own the club, but the fans can put pressure on the owners as they are doing now. I guess I’ve got my answer, you’re happy to give them an indefinite pass regardless of performance on the pitch.

 

[Baleforce]

I realise they own the club, but the fans can put pressure on the owners as they are doing now. I guess I’ve got my answer, you’re happy to give them an indefinite pass regardless of performance on the pitch.

I’m not giving them a pass, I’m irrelevant to them, until I’ve got 4bn spare there is nothing I can change.

 

[Jurgen the German]

I’m not giving them a pass, I’m irrelevant to them, until I’ve got 4bn spare there is nothing I can change.

We don’t have the power to change the manager either, that doesn’t stop us wanting change in that area.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

I’m not giving them a pass, I’m irrelevant to them, until I’ve got 4bn spare there is nothing I can change.

We have chosen to be fans of this club through various reason and I understand most have a deep emotional connection, I understand and feel the same disappointment at our failures. I've been going to football for almost 70 years and have learnt that no matter how much fans complain about owners it will not change anything, I believe the only real pressure fans have is to stop giving the clubs money. If the club is upsetting your life so much change to a club that can fulfil your needs, over 80,000 people get divorced each year in UK and I think they have greater emotional attachment to their families than football fans.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I think you have to have an intrinsic relationship between the 3 layer of a football club.

The leadership layer - we've not got this one right until recently. We watched as LFC created the perfect leadership layer with all of the right appointments to support the 1st team manager. Every thing they did was to make Klopp successful. We didn't do that. Sometimes I think that the Tavistock / ENIC complexity hinders us along with the board members taking on day to day duties when they're not good at football ops. Obviously, they are good at the other side. It's also important for the leadership layer to hire the right people in football operations. They have a history of not doing so.

The football manager - we have seen so many fail and most of the reasons have been obvious and could have been avoided in the hiring process. We tend to follow this narrative that the manager has a poison chalice and that the club is toxic. That stops us from seeing that a lot of our managers haven't been the right fit, or even of the right quality.

The players - we've spent too many years focusing on quantity rather than quality. We've had to do major overhauls as managers come and go and I don't really remember the squad being optimised once. We've also seen the wrong mentality or culture in the playing squad. They aren't operating the same way as those teams that win things. We've seen massive mental weakness, even in our very best players.

I guess this is my way of saying that I believe so much of what has happened in the past seems to be changing at the club. An inevitable manager refresh could now really elevate us. I like the leadership changes we're seeing and I believe in this young squad. Nurture it, add to it and I think we'll surprise ourselves.

That Liverpool set up has taken time
It wasn’t instant and they were very very patient with klopp

 

[glorygloryeze]

That Liverpool set up has taken time
It wasn’t instant and they were very very patient with klopp

Klopp deserved their patience. From the season he joined he was an EL final win vs Seville from qualifying for the CL. And i believe that was without buying any player.
Then from summer 2016 (the infamous "snatching Mane and Wijnaldum from our claws one") they qualified for top 4 every year until 2022-23 when they finished 5th.
In that time:
2017 - finished 4th
2018 - losing CL finalists
2019 - Won CL, finished 2nd in PL by a point
2020 - Won PL
2021 - finished 3rd
2022 - Won CC, FA Cup, losing CL finalists, finished 2nd in PL by a point
We certainly wouldn't have sacked Klopp in those circumstances

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Klopp deserved their patience. From the season he joined he was an EL final win vs Seville from qualifying for the CL. And i believe that was without buying any player.
Then from summer 2016 (the infamous "snatching Mane and Wijnaldum from our claws one") they qualified for top 4 every year until 2022-23 when they finished 5th.
In that time:
2017 - finished 4th
2018 - losing CL finalists
2019 - Won CL, finished 2nd in PL by a point
2020 - Won PL
2021 - finished 3rd
2022 - Won CC, FA Cup, losing CL finalists, finished 2nd in PL by a point
We certainly wouldn't have sacked Klopp in those circumstances

Patience pays off
stick with a plan
Not sure if your trying to argue with me or agree with me

 

[glorygloryeze]

Patience pays off
stick with a plan
Not sure if your trying to argue with me or agree with me

I'm agreeing with you but widening the context/detail as well