Coronavirus

[Mikey10]

That was union action that stopped it. We have to assume people will work in the best interests of the country when planning - selfishness is a separate issue we will need to deal with.

It actually wasn’t. The PM himself said that schools were ‘vectors of transmission’ and that schools needed to close to full learning given the levels of infection in the community. You may remember that he actually sent everyone in for a day at the beginning of term for his latest organised super spreader event before changing his mind - again.

Thousands of teachers are currently in schools, by the way.

 

[Legohamster]

Massively, and as Prof Devi Sridhar has consistently pointed out, the failures to get a hold of the pandemic like other countries have managed have continually caused the lockdowns, and the lateness to resolve the issues mean the lockdowns have to be more stringent and last longer.

It's really not that difficult, if you want a functioning economy during a pandemic, get test and trace working properly, quarentine arrivals etc. Neither the UK has managed. It's not a coincidence we have the worst record in GDP of developed nations off the back of this, it's cause and effect.

Massively, and as Prof Devi Sridhar has consistently pointed out, the failures to get a hold of the pandemic like other countries have managed have continually caused the lockdowns, and the lateness to resolve the issues mean the lockdowns have to be more stringent and last longer.

It's really not that difficult, if you want a functioning economy during a pandemic, get test and trace working properly, quarentine arrivals etc. Neither the UK has managed. It's not a coincidence we have the worst record in GDP of developed nations off the back of this, it's cause and effect.

Devi Sridhar is pushing for worldwide zero covid at any cost and to be locked down indefinitely in case of new mutations, as damaging of a view as anti vaxxers.

She also blocks experts (actual experts) that debate her and point out the flaws in her arguments.

She has also been sitting on Scottish sage and has signed off on the policies there.

 

[Diamond Lights]

Devi Sridhar is pushing for worldwide zero covid at any cost and to be locked down indefinitely in case of new mutations, as damaging of a view as anti vaxxers.

think you have completely missed her point. Like, way off, especially on the understading of what a zero covid approach.

In her own words:

Should the UK have pursued a “zero Covid” strategy?

The choice for us living in this country is would you rather have your daily life back meaning everything that you want in terms of bars, pubs, sports matches, concerts, live music, theatre, arts, but with the consequence that you can’t travel abroad and you’re stuck here with the other 66 million people on this island as your pool of social connections, or would you rather be able to go abroad and do whatever you like but live under restrictions for the foreseeable future.

Australia (and NZ) have pushed for a zero covid approach. Are they "locked down indefinitely" as you say? No. A zero covid approach is basically eliminating as best you can the virus through effective test and tracing and then running on a localised model effectively to contain the virus. As Australia have done. Have they had flare ups? Of course, it's a virus that is almost impossible to contain. Have they opened up life in the country? Sports? Bars? cafes for Brunch? Gyms?

Do they restrict entry into their country, to ensure it's citizens can live as best a life as possible? Yes.

Here's a picture of Example performing on New Years Eve in Austrlia during their zero covid approach:



You have two options, trying to eliminate the virus and having more resembelance to daily normality like Australia and NZ.

Or

tinkle poor late management and then entering our 3rd national lockdown with schools unable to open. Sounds like this is your preference. Remarkable.

 

[scaramanga]

It actually wasn’t. The PM himself said that schools were ‘vectors of transmission’ and that schools needed to close to full learning given the levels of infection in the community. You may remember that he actually sent everyone in for a day at the beginning of term for his latest organised super spreader event before changing his mind - again.

Thousands of teachers are currently in schools, by the way.

Did you expect him to publicly say they'd folded to the unions?

Schools had or were returning until all the workshy unions dragged their teachers into a political squabble that wasn't theirs to make.

 

[Legohamster]

think you have completely missed her point. Like, way off, especially on the understading of what a zero covid approach.

In her own words:

Should the UK have pursued a “zero Covid” strategy?

The choice for us living in this country is would you rather have your daily life back meaning everything that you want in terms of bars, pubs, sports matches, concerts, live music, theatre, arts, but with the consequence that you can’t travel abroad and you’re stuck here with the other 66 million people on this island as your pool of social connections, or would you rather be able to go abroad and do whatever you like but live under restrictions for the foreseeable future.

Australia (and NZ) have pushed for a zero covid approach. Are they "locked down indefinitely" as you say? No. A zero covid approach is basically eliminating as best you can the virus through effective test and tracing and then running on a localised model effectively to contain the virus. As Australia have done. Have they had flare ups? Of course, it's a virus that is almost impossible to contain. Have they opened up life in the country? Sports? Bars? cafes for Brunch? Gyms?

Do they restrict entry into their country, to ensure it's citizens can live as best a life as possible? Yes.

Here's a picture of Example performing on New Years Eve in Austrlia during their zero covid approach:

View attachment 10757

You have two options, trying to eliminate the virus and having more resembelance to daily normality like Australia and NZ.

Or

tinkle poor late management and then entering our 3rd national lockdown with schools unable to open. Sounds like this is your preference. Remarkable.

Also her own words


As an island, Great Britain is in a strong position to eliminate the virus and fully reopen schools, bars and theatres as well as bringing back sports matches and weddings, without pointless debates about 1 or 2 metre distancing measures. This would require mass testing – to catch all symptomatic and asymptomatic carriers – tracing of contacts and isolation for those individuals. The public needs to be convinced that the short-term pain is worth it, including continued physical distancing from others, use of face masks when distancing is not possible, and putting aside short-term self-interest for a few more months.


Followed by



At the moment we have rising unemployment, we’re going to be in a deep recession, so many businesses can’t operate, people say it’s the restrictions killing the economy, I keep saying, no, it’s the virus. There is no way, unless we get a handle on the virus, that we can run this economy. I do worry when Whitty keeps saying this is endemic, that we have to live with it, it’s seasonal, we have to accept a certain number of deaths next winter, it’s impossible to eliminate it. And my response is it’s theoretically impossible to the modellers but it’s practically feasible for other countries and now having seen it in Scotland, we did it last summer, so we know we can do it, we need more ambition, it’s a failure of imagination, it’s a failure to protect the British population at a time when we need the government to step up.


She’s doing what we are seeing quite a few are at the moment, covering her own back for the investigation that’s incoming.

Shes been part of the Scottish Advisory Group, and been part of the group advising it’s ok to travel abroad and the loosening if restrictions - Scotland (as we have seen) have full powers over what they can do in outlawing stuff.


The border is the new pubs, she’s been posting photos of people coming home whilst ignoring the fact they have to have a clean PCR test to get into the U.K. and actually to get into the country they are returning from.

I note (that I have seen) she’s mentioning care home and Hospital infection levels?

wanting to shut the borders completely is in the “at any cost” section of actions.

We are a hub, for business and trade - shutting this for two years as she suggests is suicide for Jobs and Economy and slaps a closed sign over the U.K.

 

[WillWeEverBeGoodAgain]

220k on a Sunday isn't bad really

 

[Diamond Lights]

Also her own words


As an island, Great Britain is in a strong position to eliminate the virus and fully reopen schools, bars and theatres as well as bringing back sports matches and weddings, without pointless debates about 1 or 2 metre distancing measures. This would require mass testing – to catch all symptomatic and asymptomatic carriers – tracing of contacts and isolation for those individuals. The public needs to be convinced that the short-term pain is worth it, including continued physical distancing from others, use of face masks when distancing is not possible, and putting aside short-term self-interest for a few more months.


Followed by

At the moment we have rising unemployment, we’re going to be in a deep recession, so many businesses can’t operate, people say it’s the restrictions killing the economy, I keep saying, no, it’s the virus. There is no way, unless we get a handle on the virus, that we can run this economy. I do worry when Whitty keeps saying this is endemic, that we have to live with it, it’s seasonal, we have to accept a certain number of deaths next winter, it’s impossible to eliminate it. And my response is it’s theoretically impossible to the modellers but it’s practically feasible for other countries and now having seen it in Scotland, we did it last summer, so we know we can do it, we need more ambition, it’s a failure of imagination, it’s a failure to protect the British population at a time when we need the government to step up.


She’s doing what we are seeing quite a few are at the moment, covering her own back for the investigation that’s incoming.

Shes been part of the Scottish Advisory Group, and been part of the group advising it’s ok to travel abroad and the loosening if restrictions - Scotland (as we have seen) have full powers over what they can do in outlawing stuff.

dude i really don't get your point or this whole "covering her own back and Scotland can sort themselves out and haven't and that was her decision". you're entirely missing the point of the actual argument she's making either by choice or accident, and seem to take more issue with her as a person than the things she's saying.

as she has said, you will continually destroy your own economy by continually locking down if you continually to fail to get a grasp of the pandemic.

A zero covid approach, as i described above, DOES NOT MEAN YOU LIVE IN LOCKDOWN FOR PERPERTUITY. It means, once we achieve the aims necessary from this THIRD lockdown, you actually spend the time getting your brick together, limiting people coming in, actually solving test and trace, and continually drive down the numbers to the point you can successfully contain future outbreaks. Just like several asian countries have done. Just like Australia and NZ have done.



Source: Commons Library, UK Government.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

Tories are bad enough in government because of their inherent lack of empathy for anyone with a bank balance of less than fifty thousand pounds, but when you couple that with rank incompetence on a grand scale well...

 

[Legohamster]

dude i really don't get your point or this whole "covering her own back and Scotland can sort themselves out and haven't and that was her decision". you're entirely missing the point of the actual argument she's making either by choice or accident, and seem to take more issue with her as a person than the things she's saying.

as she has said, you will continually destroy your own economy by continually locking down if you continually to fail to get a grasp of the pandemic.

A zero covid approach, as i described above, DOES NOT MEAN YOU LIVE IN LOCKDOWN FOR PERPERTUITY. It means, once we achieve the aims necessary from this THIRD lockdown, you actually spend the time getting your brick together, limiting people coming in, actually solving test and trace, and continually drive down the numbers to the point you can successfully contain future outbreaks. Just like several asian countries have done. Just like Australia and NZ have done.

View attachment 10759

Source: Commons Library, UK Government.

There has been a major shift if the past few weeks of people covering backs - surely you have noticed?

Sage disagreeing in public/sage v Gov/PHE V sage etc - whist these things went on behind closed doors it’s now being played out in public.

Why are people still pushing NZ/Australia as a comparison? We are completely different in every way.

Do you know what percentage of GDP Aviation is worth alone? 10 percent, to suggest we cut that completely will mean more cuts to the NHS/Police etc

She wants UK restrictions till March 22 - as per her interview on Channel 4 - that’s a completely different picture that you are painting.

How many jobs will go if that’s the case?

She comes across as somebody enjoying her 5 minutes of fame and doesn’t want to let it go.

Even Democrat states in the USA are now realising they have to get re- opening now because the damage being done is worse than the virus.

 

[Mikey10]

Why are people still pushing NZ/Australia as a comparison? We are completely different in every way.

That’s exactly the thinking that has got the UK into this mess.

A virus doesn’t recognise nationalities or borders. There is one way to contain this, at present. A few countries, like NZ and Australia have been successful. Everyone else is floundering - and slowly realising that they should have followed the NZ model from the start.

 

[scaramanga]

That’s exactly the thinking that has got the UK into this mess.

A virus doesn’t recognise nationalities or borders. There is one way to contain this, at present. A few countries, like NZ and Australia have been successful. Everyone else is floundering - and slowly realising that they should have followed the NZ model from the start.

Empty the country of all the people?

Not sure that's a realistic plan.

 

[djp82]

That’s exactly the thinking that has got the UK into this mess.

A virus doesn’t recognise nationalities or borders. There is one way to contain this, at present. A few countries, like NZ and Australia have been successful. Everyone else is floundering - and slowly realising that they should have followed the NZ model from the start.

Can’t compare us to NZ/Aus. Yes they have done well. They are not travel hubs . They traced a lot of spread from the Ski resorts of Northern Europe 1000s of Brits and Europeans skiing moved it about. Take East coast of America. NY hardest hit first. Not surprising as that’s a major travel hub from Europe. It was entrenched before they got a handle on it and that was that.
NZ and Aus are not connection points for travel they are mainly end points.They are isolated. NZ has 5 million people. Less than in London alone.

So as much as they are a shining light they are not to be compared to us. Compare Europe to us.

 

[Mikey10]

Can’t compare us to NZ/Aus. Yes they have done well. They are not travel hubs . They traced a lot of spread from the Ski resorts of Northern Europe 1000s of Brits and Europeans skiing moved it about. Take East coast of America. NY hardest hit first. Not surprising as that’s a major travel hub from Europe. It was entrenched before they got a handle on it and that was that.
NZ and Aus are not connection points for travel they are mainly end points.They are isolated. NZ has 5 million people. Less than in London alone.

So as much as they are a shining light they are not to be compared to us. Compare Europe to us.

What was stopping us closing our borders like they did when they realised that there was a potentially lethal virus spreading around the world which we knew very little about? If it wasn’t the right thing to do then why do it now?

Our government tried to prioritise the economy over people’s lives and managed to fudge up massively on both counts. To make matters worse they then repeated the same actions in the Autumn.

And if you do just want to compare us to Europe, we’ve taken the biggest economic hit of any European country - and we are top of the pops in the death rates too.

 

[djp82]

What was stopping us closing our borders like they did when they realised that there was a potentially lethal virus spreading around the world which we knew very little about?

Our government tried to prioritise the economy over people’s lives and managed to fudge up massively on both counts. To make matters worse they then repeated the same actions in the Autumn.

And if you do just want to compare us to Europe, we’ve taken the biggest economic hit of any European country and we are top of the pops in the death rates too.

That’s fine to compare us to Europe. Have no problem with that.

I’m in total agreement why were flights/ferry’s etc still coming and going. In hindsight looks like a major fudge up. I’m not defending Boris it’s played out in front of our eyes just how shambolic this has been. Also does not help that NHS was in a dire state before this all started.

Just I keep seeing the comparison to NZ/AUS it just holds no weight.

 

[Diamond Lights]

ok so it seems people are either again, missing the point entirely because they don't get the point or are wilfully choosing to ignore it. Let's say it again slowly for you...

I am not discussing the similarities of travel hubs, population density etc between the UK and Australia. So when I have mentioned NZ/Aus, it is purely on the context to how their governments have reacted to the virus.

The point made, is to have an effective control of the virus, you MUST have an effective test and tracing system, which countries like Taiwan and South Korea haver managed, and for added bonus, stronger border controls and quarantine procedures, something we are looking to implement 1 year and 80,000 deaths later like Aus and NZ.

Both of these things are achievable in the UK. The fact we are now looking at quarantine procedures highlights again our failures.

Regarding test and trace, again, a key pillar since day 1 on controlling the pandemic which we spent millions on Tory donors and friends instead.

Stop making a straw man of "oh we ain't the same as Aus/NZ" when it's nothing to do with geographies but competence. Something this government clearly lacks.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[djp82]

ok so it seems people are either again, missing the point entirely because they don't get the point or are wilfully choosing to ignore it. Let's say it again slowly for you...

I am not discussing the similarities of travel hubs, population density etc between the UK and Australia. So when I have mentioned NZ/Aus, it is purely on the context to how their governments have reacted to the virus.

The point made, is to have an effective control of the virus, you MUST have an effective test and tracing system, which countries like Taiwan and South Korea haver managed, and for added bonus, stronger border controls and quarantine procedures, something we are looking to implement 1 year and 80,000 deaths later like Aus and NZ.

Both of these things are achievable in the UK. The fact we are now looking at quarantine procedures highlights again our failures.

Regarding test and trace, again, a key pillar since day 1 on controlling the pandemic which we spent millions on Tory donors and friends instead.

Stop making a straw man of "oh we ain't the same as Aus/NZ" when it's nothing to do with geographies but competence. Something this government clearly lacks.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

Again you are comparing countries like South Korea and Taiwan to the UK.

There’s many factors to this. They have had practice with the outbreak of the original SARS and had already learned how to handle deadly virus outbreaks . Another is the relationship between their population and Government. Also the attitude of the people is different to the west. They are far more accepting of their Governments implementing Tracing and Lockdowns.

There’s lots of factors that some country’s have handled their Pandemics differently. I’m not against comparison at all but let’s do it with Europe.

European country’s populations are far less receptive to over reaching government. Track Trace and Lockdowns. This is a massive factor into continued spread. People don’t give a brick about the rules in this country. Not everyone but enough to keep it moving. Look at Holland just yesterday protesting Lockdown. You don’t see it in the places you mentioned.

Again I stress that I’m not saying this government has not made a total fudge up of its response to this pandemic. It’s plain to see. But it’s the constant comparison to country’s who have circumstances In no way similar to the UK.

 

[scaramanga]

ok so it seems people are either again, missing the point entirely because they don't get the point or are wilfully choosing to ignore it. Let's say it again slowly for you...

I am not discussing the similarities of travel hubs, population density etc between the UK and Australia. So when I have mentioned NZ/Aus, it is purely on the context to how their governments have reacted to the virus.

The point made, is to have an effective control of the virus, you MUST have an effective test and tracing system, which countries like Taiwan and South Korea haver managed, and for added bonus, stronger border controls and quarantine procedures, something we are looking to implement 1 year and 80,000 deaths later like Aus and NZ.

Both of these things are achievable in the UK. The fact we are now looking at quarantine procedures highlights again our failures.

Regarding test and trace, again, a key pillar since day 1 on controlling the pandemic which we spent millions on Tory donors and friends instead.

Stop making a straw man of "oh we ain't the same as Aus/NZ" when it's nothing to do with geographies but competence. Something this government clearly lacks.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

Methods such as those used in China, Taiwan and South Korea are unacceptable.

Has any country with a population density resembling civilisation successfully kept the spread down without such measures?

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

The Tories maintained open borders with Europe months after it was apparent that the disease was out of control there. They didn't act, because as always they put money ahead of people's welfare and lives. I said months ago that Johnson would have blood on his hands and I have been proven right. Not that it was a hard call.

 

[Legohamster]

What was stopping us closing our borders like they did when they realised that there was a potentially lethal virus spreading around the world which we knew very little about? If it wasn’t the right thing to do then why do it now?

Our government tried to prioritise the economy over people’s lives and managed to fudge up massively on both counts. To make matters worse they then repeated the same actions in the Autumn.

And if you do just want to compare us to Europe, we’ve taken the biggest economic hit of any European country - and we are top of the pops in the death rates too.

Ask sage, it wasn’t the gov that advised against it.

China are also back into lockdown again, are we saying they didn’t lockdown hard enough?

They also have the hotel system in place.

Germans track and trace was said to be the best in Europe, they are in the same situation as we are now.

With out Government basically saying all the time there is mutations we won’t go back to normal, this won’t end.

 

[Legohamster]

The Tories maintained open borders with Europe months after it was apparent that the disease was out of control there. They didn't act, because as always they put money ahead of people's welfare and lives. I said months ago that Johnson would have blood on his hands and I have been proven right. Not that it was a hard call.

They followed the science that sage advised.

Why does this get ignored continually.