AVB's System, 4-3-3, and the Transfer Window

[braineclipse]

The issue being if you play Bale on the right, so he cuts in on his stronger foot, then you can't play Lennon there to keep the width.


I wouldn't be that surprised if Bale was the central player in the front three either really.

I think Bale could play either side of a front 3 in a 4-3-3 and quite possibly as the central striker too. Lennon could play on the right and perhaps on the left.

Options and all that...

I don't know why we can't just keep Bale central where he's killing it, keep Lennon in the team and just buy a creative playmaker on the left and a striker. Rather than shoehorning players into a system that doesn't fit.

The system fit us well in recent games...

We're just discussing a possible change, I don't think anyone is saying that it's bound to happen, just some fun speculation. At least on my part, I don't think a move to 4-3-3 is a foregone conclusion at all.

 

[Spursalot]

I think Bale could play either side of a front 3 in a 4-3-3 and quite possibly as the central striker too. Lennon could play on the right and perhaps on the left.

Options and all that...



The system fit us well in recent games...

We're just discussing a possible change, I don't think anyone is saying that it's bound to happen, just some fun speculation. At least on my part, I don't think a move to 4-3-3 is a foregone conclusion at all.

Wouldn't want Bale and Lennon both trying to cut in though, but options are always good.

Bale Left/Right/Central
Lennon Right
Townsend Left/Right
Dempsey Left (maybe right)

Need to pick up another central or two though.


It's not a foregone conclusion no, there are signs that it could be happening but it could be coincidental.

 

[Rossi22]

I don't agree.

Ignoring the GK and back five. We have a DM. We don't have a playmaker, we don't have a dynamic box-to-box player. We have no one on the left unless you count Dempsey(I don't as I think he's horrible) and we have no suitable striker. Not to mention we're now sacrificing an important player like Lennon so we can play the latest fad formation for no particular reason other than it's cooler than the formation we're currently playing(which is practically 442 but we'll call it 4231 if you like).

 

[Spursalot]

I don't agree.

Ignoring the GK and back five. We have a DM. We don't have a playmaker, we don't have a dynamic box-to-box player. We have no one on the left unless you count Dempsey(I don't as I think he's horrible) and we have no suitable striker. Not to mention we're now sacrificing an important player like Lennon so we can play the latest fad formation for no particular reason other than it's cooler than the formation we're currently playing(which is practically 442 but we'll call it 4231 if you like).

No playmaker, Left sided player or striker?

Those are issues with the 4-2-3-1 as well aren't they?


(Plus the formation we've played over the last 3-4 games has been 4-3-3 for the most part, Emirates Marketing Project for 60 minutes being the notable exception)

 

[Rossi22]

My playmaker would be on the left. Man Utd have a similar set up, I don't know why we have to change.

We only played 433 because Lennon was injured, he's not going to be injured all the time.

 

[Spursalot]

My playmaker would be on the left. Man Utd have a similar set up, I don't know why we have to change.

We only played 433 because Lennon was injured, he's not going to be injured all the time.

Fair, so we're two players away from what you'd want in your 4-2-3-1.

Whereas we're three players away from what i'd think is a suitable 4-3-3.


That's hardly a world of difference. Honestly? I think it will depend on who is available in the summer. If we have the chance to get in that top quality creative central midfielder then i think we'll see the shift to 4-3-3. If we don't or if we're not looking then i'd agree we'll stick with the 4-2-3-1.

We're not far from either.


Strangely in a thread about 'AVB's System, 4-3-3, and the Transfer Window' there will inevitably be discussion about a move to 4-3-3.

 

[Raziel]

That's hardly a world of difference. Honestly? I think it will depend on who is available in the summer. If we have the chance to get in that top quality creative central midfielder then i think we'll see the shift to 4-3-3. If we don't or if we're not looking then i'd agree we'll stick with the 4-2-3-1.

We're not far from either.


Strangely in a thread about 'AVB's System, 4-3-3, and the Transfer Window' there will inevitably be discussion about a move to 4-3-3.

Key point, I think we will do everything we can do get a #1 striker, everything else will probably be based on who's available.

Lloris/VDV were perfect examples of sometimes you buy a quality player simply because they are available and the price is right.

 

[Nigeyman]

Yep its all pie in the sky...........

generally a manager has to pick a style to suit the players at his disposal rather than impose a style which playing staff feel uncomfortable......generally ends in disaster. ask stoke to play like barca and see the joy.

so AVB might think right....'if I can get the one or two I like i might start next season 4-3-3 and give it 5-6 games.

if he cant then he might continue as we are and upgrade squad quality where he can....... lots of ifs and buts.........we still need rid of the likes of Bentley imo and thats without the uncertainty of the BALE future.

Gonna be an interesting summer................I wonder if we will sign striker...............i wonder if all on this forum will give seal of approval.....(maybe damiao)

I Do think AVB will try the 4-3-3 next season. we shall see..........until then we may as well wee into the wind.

 

[kroakie123]

But in the main we've struggled to beat teams at home who park the bus so how would the 4-3-3 system resolve this ongoing issue? 4-2-3-1 has worked superbly away from home which is why we've only lost on our travels against the following teams;
Arsenal
Emirates Marketing Project
Liverpool
Everton
Saudi Sportswashing Machine
Bar Saudi Sportswashing Machine they all can be considered champions league contending teams, and arguably we shouldn't have lost against Liverpool and Everton so the 4-2-3-1 has worked a blinder away from home, it's at home it's somewhat failed to fit the requirements of what would allow the players to perform against teams who park the bus, who by coincidence are the teams in the bottom half of the table. How would the 4-3-3 fix this problem?

 

[elltrev]

But in the main we've struggled to beat teams at home who park the bus so how would the 4-3-3 system resolve this ongoing issue? 4-2-3-1 has worked superbly away from home which is why we've only lost on our travels against the following teams;
Arsenal
Emirates Marketing Project
Liverpool
Everton
Saudi Sportswashing Machine
Bar Saudi Sportswashing Machine they all can be considered champions league contending teams, and arguably we shouldn't have lost against Liverpool and Everton so the 4-2-3-1 has worked a blinder away from home, it's at home it's somewhat failed to fit the requirements of what would allow the players to perform against teams who park the bus, who by coincidence are the teams in the bottom half of the table. How would the 4-3-3 fix this problem?

To be honest I'm not sure anyone is proposing that playing 4-3-3 resolves any particular issue; people are just interested in discussing what the team would look like in that formation.

But in response to your post, personally I don't think Bale should be playing in the No.10 role against teams who defend deep - I think you need more of a creative team-player there, and IMO the closest thing we have to that is Siggy or Holtby.

I also think we shouldn't underestimate how much our struggles in breaking down defensive opposition is caused by our poor striker options, rather than a flaw in the team or system as a whole.

 

[DMac]

My playmaker would be on the left. Man Utd have a similar set up, I don't know why we have to change.

We only played 433 because Lennon was injured, he's not going to be injured all the time.

Well if the playmaker's on the left then we also need a better left back who's going to overlap. AVB seems to like having a playmaker in the left forward position though (Mata).

I would say that what we definitely need this summer regardless of the formation is at least 1 striker, a player for the left wing, and a Modric-style midfielder. What I was trying to get at in the first post was that the way Porto played was often by overloading the right wing with 3 players - the right sided central midfielder, the right back, and the right forward. I've actually seen Emirates Marketing Project do the same sort of thing, it allows for a lot of potential movements that can open up a defense. If the forward stays wide then the midfielder can move through the space between the left back and center back. If the winger cuts inside the midfielder can go wide on the overlap, so the opponent has to maintain their width. Ramires did it pretty well at Chelsea. Dembele would be perfect on the other side but I think he may be too left footed to do it on the right side. So I'm just sort of wondering what AVB has in mind, I'm not trying to advocate that we switch to 4-3-3 it's just speculation.

 

[elltrev]

Well if the playmaker's on the left then we also need a better left back who's going to overlap. AVB seems to like having a playmaker in the left forward position though (Mata).

I would say that what we definitely need this summer regardless of the formation is at least 1 striker, a player for the left wing, and a Modric-style midfielder. What I was trying to get at in the first post was that the way Porto played was often by overloading the right wing with 3 players - the right sided central midfielder, the right back, and the right forward. I've actually seen Emirates Marketing Project do the same sort of thing, it allows for a lot of potential movements that can open up a defense. If the forward stays wide then the midfielder can move through the space between the left back and center back. If the winger cuts inside the midfielder can go wide on the overlap, so the opponent has to maintain their width. Ramires did it pretty well at Chelsea. Dembele would be perfect on the other side but I think he may be too left footed to do it on the right side. So I'm just sort of wondering what AVB has in mind, I'm not trying to advocate that we switch to 4-3-3 it's just speculation.

The exact same thing can happen with 4-2-3-1 though, with the No.10 providing those movements rather than the right-midfielder in a 4-3-3. Indeed, when Bale does play as the No.10 I'd like to see him move to wide positions more frequently to create those kinds of overloads, like Ozil does for Madrid.

 

[braineclipse]

Fair, so we're two players away from what you'd want in your 4-2-3-1.

Whereas we're three players away from what i'd think is a suitable 4-3-3.


That's hardly a world of difference. Honestly? I think it will depend on who is available in the summer. If we have the chance to get in that top quality creative central midfielder then i think we'll see the shift to 4-3-3. If we don't or if we're not looking then i'd agree we'll stick with the 4-2-3-1.

We're not far from either.


Strangely in a thread about 'AVB's System, 4-3-3, and the Transfer Window' there will inevitably be discussion about a move to 4-3-3.

Very good post, agree with all of it

Important point that despite 6 signings in the summer that have all been quite heavily involved with the first team and with most of them being successful we're still missing key players to fit our current formation. Says a bit about the job AVB had to do in the summer in the transfer market.

 

[DMac]

The exact same thing can happen with 4-2-3-1 though, with the No.10 providing those movements rather than the right-midfielder in a 4-3-3. Indeed, when Bale does play as the No.10 I'd like to see him move to wide positions more frequently to create those kinds of overloads, like Ozil does for Madrid.

Yeah maybe, though besides Bale our only winger who is reasonably good at cutting inside from a wide position is Dempsey, from the left. Perhaps that's why AVB seems to play him so much. Though I think I like the idea of Holtby playing AM, doing the overlapping job, with Bale and Lennon switching flanks, at least for the rest of the season.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

There are quotes from AVB saying he thinks 433 is the best way to play, so that's why people think he will want to switch to it.

 

[Nigeyman]

There is really good points here about 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1 what are players are best at and not suitable for.......

My personal opinion is that a savvy manager is adaptable can read the flow of a game and make adjustments (in game) to give his side every advantage he can....something I have always admire reg mourinho - long time ago but does anyone remember the game quite a few years ago when we played chelsea at the bridge mourinho in charge...... please any1 with better memory than me feel free to correct me but I think we were 2-0 up the egyptian dude we had (cant remember name) scored the opener for us....and I remember defoe missing golden chance when 1-1 to seal game for us.......either way im sure jose ringed the changes and completly changed the course of that game.

In line with this thread topic my personal opinion is that we will see Avb use 4-3-3 more in the future........and defo next season if he gets some players in he wants. We need a consistent goalscorer up top but which team doesnt.

But I also think AVB would be foolish to just say next season......right 4-3-3 and thats not gonna change from now on.........maybe he made that mistake at chelsea?
Either way its all dependent on what happens player's in and out wise.......either way we are not good enough....squad wise to pin down a set way of playing and never change.....we have to adapt to the opposition and circumstances during play.

 

[africanspurs]

how does anyone know that is AVBs preferred system for sure?

 

[BrainOfLevy]

how does anyone know that is AVBs preferred system for sure?

There's quite an often cited interview where he says its the best play to play. On my phone right now so can't link it easily but can try to later.

 

[africanspurs]

There's quite an often cited interview where he says its the best play to play. On my phone right now so can't link it easily but can try to later.

seems to me that he just plays with whatever ingredient he has in his disposal.

the interview would help though.....

 

[BrainOfLevy]

www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/...ndre-Villas-Boass-footballing-philosophy.html

He says he's a 4-3-3 fan. He does make reference to saying that you need to organising the team based on it's strengths and also on the dynamics within it. But he's clearly a 4-3-3 fan and it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if he went to it next season. There's definite justification for people speculating on that because to me it's clearly his preferred method of playing.