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Ange in or out?

Ange in or out?

  • In

    Votes: 82 43.4%
  • Out

    Votes: 107 56.6%

  • Total voters
    189
It's not what you spend it's what you buy that's important.

Do you not think we've bought well then? You didn't say that obviously, but would be interesting to get a perspective.

Mine is that I think we have bought well for the phase we were in. Now it is quality over quantity argument all the way from this point. I think the right 2 or 3 (for Ange) could make a significant impact on our ability to execute his tactical system. It's could be our tipping point.
 
Yes, so is there any point writing about how much we've spent? We could have the most expensive team in the league or Europe and without the right manager they could still fail to deliver. This point has been proved frequently in our league and in Europe.

You realise i was answering a post that asked about how much we spent compared to the teams around us?
 
Do you not think we've bought well then? You didn't say that obviously, but would be interesting to get a perspective.

Mine is that I think we have bought well for the phase we were in. Now it is quality over quantity argument all the way from this point. I think the right 2 or 3 (for Ange) could make a significant impact on our ability to execute his tactical system. It's could be our tipping point.

I think its virtually impossible to rate our recent purchases as none of them have been able to play in a settled side or in some cases not reach their potential. Some look reasonable squad players. I certainly agree we need 2/3 players who will walk straight into the team.
 
I think, deep down, it boils down to whether you want to see Postecoglou rewarded for getting a trophy. Whether it's the eye test or stats, there's nothing solid that suggests he will do better next term (and by better, I mean getting results in the league and in European competition, we're not so big that we can afford to play two cup competitions on top of that). The only thing I read is the excuses/explanations I've read all season (injuries, prioritizing one competition, not having the players he wants/need) and the fact that he's done something nobody, except for Juande Ramos and Gorgeous George, has been able to do in recent history.

If you want him to stay and you're reading that, by no way am I belittling your opinion. It's not better or worse than any other but let's face it, before these 90 minutes at San Mames - hours before -, there were very few people who wanted him to carry on. So, that's a decision based on the outcome of that Europa League run, clearly.

And if it doesn't work, it's just one season to write off, after all. What's one season compared to rewarding a job well done? We all know he will be gone by December if we get more of the same in the league. I was thinking along those lines this afternoon and then I wondered... maybe some Everton fans thought: 'hey, it's only one season' after Kendall left in 87... not saying the same will happen here, of course, but you never know.

If I were him, I'd walk away in the summer. He's won his bet and he will never have it any better than that here, his reputation will never be higher. If he finishes mid-table next season, everyone will think the Europa League was a fluke. For now, it's a masterpiece. But that's not the way high-level sportsmen think.

I wish him well either way. If it were my decision, I'd let him go without a second thought but I completely understand why some people would want to see it through and see if he can use that momentum to turn things around.
 
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You realise i was answering a post that asked about how much we spent compared to the teams around us?

No but I still think any discussion about how much we spend is not as important on getting the right fit. Buying any player is a gamble and fans have very different opinions on who we should buy without any knowledge of the mechanics of transfers and the team strategy. I haven't a clue who should be our next manager or players to purchase but I'm certain whatever we spend it will be no guarantee of success. I find it amusing so many people have such rigid opinions on the subject.
 
I'm not going round in circles with this again as there's an obvious divide amongst quite a few of us as to what we consider a good season. Some base it on cup runs, others on league form and to be honest I'm getting bored of repeating myself.
Winning the Europa League does not constitute a ‘disaster’ of a season. Every club in England except Liverpool would swap places.
 
I'm not going round in circles with this again as there's an obvious divide amongst quite a few of us as to what we consider a good season. Some base it on cup runs, others on league form and to be honest I'm getting bored of repeating myself.
No one is arguing that the league campaign has been a poor one, but that in isolation does not constitute a season - a season is all the competitions you are involved in. Yes we have been well under par in the league, but any season where we win a European trophy and as such a Champions league place certainly does not constitute a disaster of a season. You don't witness scenes like yesterday off the back of a disaster of a season....
 
Winning the Europa League does not constitute a ‘disaster’ of a season. Every club in England except Liverpool would swap places.
It's been a disaster of a league season and a brilliant Europa League campaign.

The league is the bread and butter though. It's what gives most successful clubs the platform to win silverware. You can fluke yourself to a final. You can't fluke yourself to a decent league position.
 
Are we looking to replace romero, johnson, porro etc..?
Me, no.
But the fact remains they were bought for conte.
They trained in conte systems.
They have had to transition to ange system and integrate new players and a new belief system.
It's been a hugely disrupted two seasons with injuries.
That accounts for some, and I do mean some, of our form.
I have doubts about whether ange is the right man, I also think there is enough there to rake a risk and to be perfectly honest I am totally unconvinced that any of the names being banded about are going to meet the expectations of some fans.

We appear to be heading towards a goldilocks scenario with the fanbase, any trophies we can realistically win are beneath and the ones we aspire to our out of our reach without serious investment and time.
 
Me, no.
But the fact remains they were bought for conte.
They trained in conte systems.
They have had to transition to ange system and integrate new players and a new belief system.
It's been a hugely disrupted two seasons with injuries.
That accounts for some, and I do mean some, of our form.
I have doubts about whether ange is the right man, I also think there is enough there to rake a risk and to be perfectly honest I am totally unconvinced that any of the names being banded about are going to meet the expectations of some fans.

We appear to be heading towards a goldilocks scenario with the fanbase, any trophies we can realistically win are beneath and the ones we aspire to our out of our reach without serious investment and time.

We started off really well under ange but results (europa aside) have declined over the last 2 years. Getting progressively worse.
 
It's not 2 years though. Look at the squad and tell me when the players signed. Of our EL winning squad, we had Udogie owned and on loan before Ange joined. We had Romero, Biss, Bents, Richi purchased in the 2 years leading up to Ange's appointment. That final piece of the EL jigsaw was Danso who made a superb sub appearance in my mind.

A project doesn't start when a manager starts. We opened up revenue streams in 2019 when that stadium was opened. We then got hit badly by Covid in 2020 and 21. We've then had 4 years of significant investment in Ange's squad, not to mention the years of work transforming the academy.

We are not 2 years in. We are absolutely 4 or 5 years in at this point.

As for other clubs, it's probably evens to be fair. Toon seem to be on a steady progression whilst Utd are in a rough place. City have declined but from a massive height. Arsenal perhaps have plateau'd after progression. Villa progression but has it got solid foundations? Chelsea perhaps the tough one to call. History tells us that door always opens in the top 4 (now top 5).

Those games involving 3rd to 7th tomorrow are intriguing.

You named four starters there, add in son Porro all here before ange, difficult to argue that's his team.
A team bought for his requirements
Danso came four months ago (and helped us to a EL trophy BTW), it's a bit disingenuous to include him.
 
Winning the Europa League does not constitute a ‘disaster’ of a season. Every club in England except Liverpool would swap places.
It’s a better season than every team in this country apart from pool
Palace and Saudi Sportswashing Machine will argue their own perspective but neither of their cups is of the same stature
This win is a double bubble, CL and significant silverware
That’s as good as season as any club would have as an ambition
Shame we ave the native vibes still bouncing around and I dread to think what some will say after tomorrow
 
It’s a better season than every team in this country apart from pool
Palace and Saudi Sportswashing Machine will argue their own perspective but neither of their cups is of the same stature
This win is a double bubble, CL and significant silverware
That’s as good as season as any club would have as an ambition
Shame we ave the native vibes still bouncing around and I dread to think what some will say after tomorrow
Eachy peachy between us and the toon imo.
Our cup is better than theirs, but their league position and form is better than ours.
We just shade it, just.
 
Some thoughts to share, starting back at the eve of Ange's first season, offering bullet points reasons behind what has been going on (from my perspective anyway) and concluding with why it is 'Ange In' for me...


1. He lost Harry Kane on the eve of his first Prem match in charge. I will spare you the goal stats; you can look them up and see what that immediately took away.

2. He was not given a replacement/time to sign one.

3. He was given a remit to be part of a CLUB-ORCHESRATED cultural change in both attitude and operation, which included bringing in new people above him to work between him and Levy.

4. The Chelsea match saw some bad luck. It also saw him take a stand; whether you liked that stand is personal choice.

5. The combination of World Cup hangover fatigue merged with pre-season and international tournaments meant that as we got into the New Year 2024, fatigue was starting to bed in.

6. NEVER forget, elements of our support base were so obsessed with allowing City to beat us so as to ensure the goons did not win the title. Postecoglu was visibly taken aback by it. Toxic vibes everywhere. Those three points cost us CL football.

7. Postecoglu and the staff/club made some mistakes coming into this season, both in terms of recruitment and planning. He has been very open about how pre-season should've been conducted differently in hindsight. Players such as Romero, off the back of yet another grueling summer tournament, needed a softer early season landing.

8. Despite trying early season rotation, the accumulation of overall football for several years led to an increase in injuries.

9. Once 'packs' of injuries happened, combined with the inexperience of our squad overall, the transfer window was vital. That injury crisis, BTW, was unique and unlike anything we will see again IMO.

10. Nobody expected a Vicario injury, and Forster was not the right backup. This was a major mistake made in the summer (not signing the right sort of backup), who knows exactly who was at fault there, but it cost us (to my mind) at least 9 points.

11. We only partially addressed our issues in January. Kinsky? Excellent signing. Tel? Potentially great but never going to be a short term bail out. We stuck with our remit as a club from summer 2023.

12. Once Postecoglu saw what the state of play was in the window, and once we lost to Liverpool in the CC, he has explained what some of us assumed, that he made a decision to focus on one tournament which would deliver both a trophy and CL football.

13. Some have questioned why he couldn't fight on two fronts from Feb onwards. I'm sure the reasons will be forthcoming in the weeks ahead, but put simply, between long-lay off players coming back and being rusty, to rotating in players who had not spent much time training with each other for some time due to said-injuries, to trying to protect the blue-chip players who he could absolutely rely on, he made the decision to focus on one competition.

14. Most teams in our pitiful league position would've seen mutiny within the dressing room by March. Indeed, the much venerated 'winner' Jose Mourinho managed to explode the dressing room so badly that he got sacked before a Final (yes, he really f-uc-king DID). Our dressing room went the opposite way, with players closing ranks despite the best efforts of pundits and journos to drag bits of gossip and back-talking out of them.

15. Postecoglu had been quietly tweaking his 'Angeball' for a few months from February; the media were so obsessed with how 'out of control' we were that they refused to acknowledge it.

16. Make no mistake; league performances were largely sloppy and (in a few specific cases) absolutely unacceptable with regards to the players. For the most part, we paid the price for silly individual errors, and lost the vast majority of our games by a single goal margin. again, there were certainly some awful performance in there, no argument.

17. You sensed by the time we played Frankfurt that the players buy-in with Postecoglu was pretty big. And as we've seen in the last two months, it has grown into something, well, historic for us.

18. We have seen that Postecoglu took an incredibly ballsy gamble, asked the players to buy-in, got their buy-in, and in doing so, both got rewarded for their efforts by winning the Europa League and getting into the CL. In doing so, and in taking THIS specific path with this group of players, it is hard not to assume that there has been a fortification and establishment of something very special in terms of belief. The buy-in will remain total in whatever he wants them to do. Providing we back him as HE wants to be backed, we should IMO persevere next season.

Ange in.

p.s. Ferguson was on the verge of the sack when he won the cup with Utd in 89/90. They finished their league season 13th, just 5 points above the relegation zone.
 
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