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Ange in or out?

Ange in or out?

  • In

    Votes: 78 41.3%
  • Out

    Votes: 111 58.7%

  • Total voters
    189
This is why we will never push on, like @glasgowspur said the fans are as much of the problem as anyone. Actually remind me of what I was like with women for years, didn't know what I wanted - 'I just want to win trophies' followed by 'I don't care about trophies, I just want to see good football' Now we've won a European trophy it's I just want to see us be top 5-8 - Oh I can't wait for these glory days coming up :D

Even with Poch by the end there was a large portion wanting him gone at the first bad period we had. What will happen is whenever the new manager comes in we will have a decent few months, perhaps qualify for Europe and it will be all 'See this is what a decent manager can do' and then the next season expectations will be higher, and we will end up reverting to type and coming to the realisation that Frank or whoever isn't the second coming and the fans will soon get fed up of his football. And then our wonderful managerial cycle can go round spinning once again....
So is the answer to stay with Ange and get relegated, because that could well happen?
 
Sorry but how does someone who has just won a European trophy at a club renowned for not winning them deserve the title of being out of his depth ???

He has earned the right to show that the league this season was an anomaly, by winning a competition against his peers and securing champions league football. Like any manager next season he will be a few defeats from the sack at all times, it's the game, after all. However to say he's out of his depth after the post Harry fifth, and the full squad refresh that has happened right before our eyes, then winning the EL, the out of his depth comment has become more tired and irrelevant than it was when used earlier in the season.
Now think about the future. There is no logical reason why our league performances will change, so we will in turn continue to lose game after game. At some point Levy will have to sack him, then we play catch up for the rest of the season. It doesn't take a crystal ball to work this out, it's common sense. What you are suggesting is we reward Ange with a bit more time to the cost of the supporters. As much as I have enjoyed winning the EL, think about who we had to beat to do it!
 
Levy is in a tight spot to be fair. The manager has vastly underperformed in the league, whether knowingly due to focus being elsewhere or otherwise. He's now done a generational thing for us and won a cup. Levy is thus damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. If he keep Ange and it backfires next season he's a fool. If he sacks him and a new manager starts slowly he's equally a fool.

If Ange has the job come the start of next season, expect the tabloids to be running a constant line on who is being cued up to replace him. The pressure and the odds on him failing are going to be the highest in the league.

Exactly.

Levy's other dilemma is that it's not even his decision. He would lose a lot of face if he put this new leadership group in place to run football operations and then undermined them. He may not recover from that as those guys find their reasons to work for a better employer. All he can do is offer his opinion and experience. He should know by now that his football DNA isn't that strong in these situations.

Also, I'd like the Ange decision to be a football decision. It's clearly not just about a manager's tactics and ability to lead and nurture a great bunch of young guys. The trophy alters a damaged belief system internally and externally. Fans, media, players etc. As you say he is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

Last thought is that it's OK saying sack the manager, but you still need to have a replacement. That guy needs to be in place by July 1st to run pre-season. Ideally before, as there is an entire plan to build for pre-season prior to them joining. In some ways Levy and co are in a win, win position. If they keep Ange and he gets them CL football for the 26/27 season then he meets their objectives. If he doesn't, then another pipeline of managers appear and the ones like Silva, Glasner, Iraola etc may not have as high a stock as they do right now. If they do, then they endorse their credentials for our job even more. Then there is Poch getting ever closer to the end of his US contract.
 
But why would it be, after the first ten games of his tenure we have been dreadful, why do you think this will change?
I don't just like you don't know if it will be better or worse. The difference is I will support the manager until the board says otherwise. If the board decide to stick with Ange will you support him because he will have my support
 
there will be some supporters who will also howl at every misplaced pass,
Welcome to WHL - it was like that in the 80s, when I started going to the Lane. I'm gradually coming round to accepting that Levy will see the Trophy as a watershed moment, and give Ange another crack. Personally I doubt Ange is good enough to succeed in the PL, when everything he has shown us is the reverse - but give him a great goalscorer, a Robbie Keane, a Defoe and who knows?
 
This is why we will never push on, like @glasgowspur said the fans are as much of the problem as anyone. Actually remind me of what I was like with women for years, didn't know what I wanted - 'I just want to win trophies' followed by 'I don't care about trophies, I just want to see good football' Now we've won a European trophy it's I just want to see us be top 5-8 - Oh I can't wait for these glory days coming up :D

Even with Poch by the end there was a large portion wanting him gone at the first bad period we had. What will happen is whenever the new manager comes in we will have a decent few months, perhaps qualify for Europe and it will be all 'See this is what a decent manager can do' and then the next season expectations will be higher, and we will end up reverting to type and coming to the realisation that Frank or whoever isn't the second coming and the fans will soon get fed up of his football. And then our wonderful managerial cycle can go round spinning once again....
Warning, lengthy post 🙄.


For as long as I've been on this board there has posters saying all they want is a cup, something to celebrate, our moment in the sun, to get monkey off our back and lose the sexy tag.
There's also been some who want to concentrate on CL qualification at all costs.
Generally speaking I don't have the memory to say which posters are which and I'm not trying to call anyone out as imo both are valid views.

Where it becomes as issue is the lack of appreciation that maybe doing both of those in the same season (Cup and top four) is not something we have had a squad good enough to compete across four competitions.
We should be looking for one or the other.
If the PL form is good you concentrate on top four.
If it's really good you can ease off and go a bit harder on the EL or FA cup. In that order.
If the PL form is spectacular you throw everything at it.
If PL form is OK and we're fighting for 5-8 place you lean more to cups.
I don't think we should be further down than that, but it's football and odd things happen now and again. Worse than 8th then you throw everything at your best chance of a trophy. It's the only thing that will save your season.

Now I don't see that as as big a deal, it would appear many others do.

The PL is the strongest league in the world, it's not easy to rotate or cope with too many injuries.

Unless you are unlucky in the draw the carabao Cup you can probably a chance to rotate and play some kids.

Same with the FA Cup.

EL it depends on how the fixtures are arranged. You may have to play the higher seeded teams early, if so and results don't go your way you can't coast against the lesser teams and need to put out the first team.

Go far enough in the CC and you can be playing in four competitions at once. I think we may have been this year.

In the domestic cup competitions we played city, man utd, Liverpool (twice) and villa.
Against all of them we had selection problems.
There wasn't many opportunities to rotate and hope to progress in these games.


That all adds to a lot of games and a lot of pressure.

We are not the only club to be suffering from this, currently Aston villa and Saudi Sportswashing Machine are trying find the same balance.
Villa missed out on CL and Saudi Sportswashing Machine only got in because of the extra place.
The extra games and the expectation that you can push on are a heavy burden.
A burden that currently only Emirates Marketing Project or Liverpool can bear.

We want success is the cry I have been hearing for a long time, few people will actually quantify what that success is.
I get the impression that whatever we achieve it's always the other one we want.

Some of that comes from those on high, the club don't appear to know what they want half of the time, or how to get it.
Will be interesting to see what they do with the manager and how they approach the CC this season.

We should always be aiming as high as we can, but we also need a huge dose of realism, it's a rigged game, a game we don't have the clout to compete in across all the battlefields.
Pick the battles you can win, glory in those wins and try to grow stronger.
A trophy win that should have united us appears to have divided us even more.
 
there will be some supporters who will also howl at every misplaced pass,
Welcome to WHL - it was like that in the 80s, when I started going to the Lane. I'm gradually coming round to accepting that Levy will see the Trophy as a watershed moment, and give Ange another crack. Personally I doubt Ange is good enough to succeed in the PL, when everything he has shown us is the reverse - but give him a great goalscorer, a Robbie Keane, a Defoe and who knows?
Indeed, our front line is currently bereft of any real quality
 
Warning, lengthy post 🙄.


For as long as I've been on this board there has posters saying all they want is a cup, something to celebrate, our moment in the sun, to get monkey off our back and lose the sexy tag.
There's also been some who want to concentrate on CL qualification at all costs.
Generally speaking I don't have the memory to say which posters are which and I'm not trying to call anyone out as imo both are valid views.

Where it becomes as issue is the lack of appreciation that maybe doing both of those in the same season (Cup and top four) is not something we have had a squad good enough to compete across four competitions.
We should be looking for one or the other.
If the PL form is good you concentrate on top four.
If it's really good you can ease off and go a bit harder on the EL or FA cup. In that order.
If the PL form is spectacular you throw everything at it.
If PL form is OK and we're fighting for 5-8 place you lean more to cups.
I don't think we should be further down than that, but it's football and odd things happen now and again. Worse than 8th then you throw everything at your best chance of a trophy. It's the only thing that will save your season.

Now I don't see that as as big a deal, it would appear many others do.

The PL is the strongest league in the world, it's not easy to rotate or cope with too many injuries.

Unless you are unlucky in the draw the carabao Cup you can probably a chance to rotate and play some kids.

Same with the FA Cup.

EL it depends on how the fixtures are arranged. You may have to play the higher seeded teams early, if so and results don't go your way you can't coast against the lesser teams and need to put out the first team.

Go far enough in the CC and you can be playing in four competitions at once. I think we may have been this year.

In the domestic cup competitions we played city, man utd, Liverpool (twice) and villa.
Against all of them we had selection problems.
There wasn't many opportunities to rotate and hope to progress in these games.


That all adds to a lot of games and a lot of pressure.

We are not the only club to be suffering from this, currently Aston villa and Saudi Sportswashing Machine are trying find the same balance.
Villa missed out on CL and Saudi Sportswashing Machine only got in because of the extra place.
The extra games and the expectation that you can push on are a heavy burden.
A burden that currently only Emirates Marketing Project or Liverpool can bear.

We want success is the cry I have been hearing for a long time, few people will actually quantify what that success is.
I get the impression that whatever we achieve it's always the other one we want.

Some of that comes from those on high, the club don't appear to know what they want half of the time, or how to get it.
Will be interesting to see what they do with the manager and how they approach the CC this season.

We should always be aiming as high as we can, but we also need a huge dose of realism, it's a rigged game, a game we don't have the clout to compete in across all the battlefields.
Pick the battles you can win, glory in those wins and try to grow stronger.
A trophy win that should have united us appears to have divided us even more.
Would it be possible to have a 20-word summary, please? ;)
 
So is the answer to stay with Ange and get relegated, because that could well happen?

I keep seeing this, it's a valid point of view.
Are you willing to accept that all of the managers so far linked are just as big a punt as ange was?
Since September I've seen plenty of "all we need is" posts.
Ireola.
Glasner.
Frank.
De Silva.
Formations galore,
Double pivots
Play the kids.
It's not that easy, even longer history tells us that.

I have absolutely no grief with sacking ange.
My issue is expectation that with a few changes everything will be rosey in the garden.
 
I just think the two sides, if it can even be described as that, are talking at cross purposes. Best way i can think to describe it is as thus :

Compare us with Arsenal this season/right now - we've won a trophy & qualified for the CL while having a GHod awful league season. Arsenal didn't win a trophy but finished 2nd in the league and went deep in the CL. There's a very strong argument for us having had the better season based on that and I'd personally agree that we have due to the level of trophy won (a European trophy) BUT if you're looking in to next season and beyond as to who is better placed to be successful moving forwards then surely everyone can agree who that team is?
 
I just think the two sides, if it can even be described as that, are talking at cross purposes. Best way i can think to describe it is as thus :

Compare us with Arsenal this season/right now - we've won a trophy & qualified for the CL while having a GHod awful league season. Arsenal didn't win a trophy but finished 2nd in the league and went deep in the CL. There's a very strong argument for us having had the better season based on that and I'd personally agree that we have due to the level of trophy won (a European trophy) BUT if you're looking in to next season and beyond as to who is better placed to be successful moving forwards then surely everyone can agree who that team is?
There is clearly two sides one wants Ange gone you being one of them the other want him to stay. As for scum they can fudge off we had a better season. As for going forward I couldn't give 2 fudges what the scum do they could implode & have a brick year & we could have an outstanding year you don't no.
 
I just think the two sides, if it can even be described as that, are talking at cross purposes. Best way i can think to describe it is as thus :

Compare us with Arsenal this season/right now - we've won a trophy & qualified for the CL while having a GHod awful league season. Arsenal didn't win a trophy but finished 2nd in the league and went deep in the CL. There's a very strong argument for us having had the better season based on that and I'd personally agree that we have due to the level of trophy won (a European trophy) BUT if you're looking in to next season and beyond as to who is better placed to be successful moving forwards then surely everyone can agree who that team is?
What does being successful moving forwards mean? Back to just hoping to finish top 5 and hoping to win a trophy? We aren't ever going to be a club winning trophies year after year with this ownership, shiny stadium or no shiny stadium. Only the biggest spenders have ever competed in the league and won trophies, it's coming ever increasingly more difficult to do both.

Don't really see the point of a comparison with the Goons - they are a bigger club with bigger resources and Arteta has been at the Goons 5 or 6 years and since caretaking them to the FA Cup has won nothing and they have plateaued. Like @ricky2tricky4city said yesterday all situations and circumstances in football are different and comparisons pretty irrelevant.

The question for Ange is whether he can use this cup win as a foundation and build on starting with of course better league performances....
 
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