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American politics

glasgowspur said:
Sorry but colour is irrelevant, white poor and black poor don't have the same services, treatment and benefits of white or black rich people.
Poverty, and it's inequalities, isn't exclusive to certain skin colours.
If you want to compare a poor white person and poor black person and say there is inequality in their treatment fine, but your argument there doesn't work.
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Well, I sort of mentioned that - 'poor', predominantly black communities exist in a different world to 'rich' white communities, and this has been the case for the entirety of the history of the United States. Sure, poor white communities also get the boot in terms of being spit on by the wonderful 'American Dream', but they are at least *marginally* higher on the social strata than poor black people are, and that is reflected in the marginally greater access they have to employment opportunities, social services and non-lethal methods of law enforcement than poor black folk do. At least, that's the case in big urban areas - white poverty in rural America is a different matter entirely, and also a deeply dismaying issue.
 
scaramanga said:
Swap US for UK and race for class (which is a pretty good comparison) and you have the very same adversity that I and many others have overcome to be successful.

The answer to not having what one wants is not being a whiny little bitch and it's not being a thug. The answer is being better and more ruthless than the competition and making a world where ones children and grandchildren can follow in success. Apologies for typos, I'm a couple of bottles deep.
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Maybe it was the drink talking, but I hope you didn't really mean to imply that the racial divide in the United States is comparable to the class divide in the UK. For one, the greatest assaults on class privilege in the UK were made in the period roughly following the end of the First World War and extended to Clement Attlee's historic victory in 1945 and his subsequent loss in 1951 - the struggle of black folk just to be seen as equal human beings in America only really came to an end in 1968 - never mind addressing the social, cultural and economic divides between white and black America, many of which persist to this day. The racial divide is much deeper and more damaging than the issue of class in the UK. Which is still a problem, don't get me wrong - but not one which is likely to see you being carelessly killed by the police for being a chav at the wheel of a car, or (in decades past) lynched for being a poor person talking to a rich lady. The dynamic is different.

It isn't a good comparison, is what I'm saying. Your 'bootstraps' advice may or may not work for the average poor person in Britain, but it probably won't work in the same way for black people, because they tried it - there was a time when black communities tried to prove their worth by being economically successful, as in the city of Tulsa in the 1910's and early 1920's. Tulsa was home to Greenwood, a large district known as the 'Black Wall Street' because of its affluence relative to the poorer white communities around it. It was an example of self-reliance and competitiveness on the part of the black community - and it infuriated the white folk in Tulsa so much that they burned it to the ground, using torches, dynamite and aircraft making bombing runs in one big race riot in 1921. Along the way, they killed around 300 black folk and destroyed the black community there forever. That was the reward black folk got for trying to 'bootstrap' their way up in America - that sort of thing has *never* happened in the history of class antagonism in the United Kingdom. There is no community of lower-class folk come good which was exterminated by middle-and-upper-class Brits in a day of violence - that sort of hatred never existed.

There are different, damaging prejudices at play, sure. But it's not the same.
 
DubaiSpur said:
Well, I sort of mentioned that - 'poor', predominantly black communities exist in a different world to 'rich' white communities, and this has been the case for the entirety of the history of the United States. Sure, poor white communities also get the boot in terms of being spit on by the wonderful 'American Dream', but they are at least *marginally* higher on the social strata than poor black people are, and that is reflected in the marginally greater access they have to employment opportunities, social services and non-lethal methods of law enforcement than poor black folk do. At least, that's the case in big urban areas - white poverty in rural America is a different matter entirely, and also a deeply dismaying issue.
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No, you don't.
You state black poor people and rich white people almost as if there is no rich black people or poor white people.
It's poor argument, and one that actually allows the racists to level the charge of victim mentality.

There is obviously a problem in America, what the answer is I don't know, the sad thing is no one else seems to.
 
glasgowspur said:
No, you don't.
You state black poor people and rich white people almost as if there is no rich black people or poor white people.
It's poor argument, and one that actually allows the racists to level the charge of victim mentality.

There is obviously a problem in America, what the answer is I don't know, the sad thing is no one else seems to.
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I think the answer to the problem is time + people continuing to fight against injustices levelled against them. I'm sure back in the days of Jim Crow laws, some people were saying to protesting blacks "hey, you're not slaves anymore, what's the problem?" You get the same kind of thing today "hey, we don't have Jim Crow anymore, you won civil rights and we had Obama, what's the problem?" but there are people who will rightly ignore that and fight on, to be treated properly by police, the criminal justice system etc.
 
glasgowspur said:
No, you don't.
You state black poor people and rich white people almost as if there is no rich black people or poor white people.
It's poor argument, and one that actually allows the racists to level the charge of victim mentality.

There is obviously a problem in America, what the answer is I don't know, the sad thing is no one else seems to.
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I'm not sure what your point is, to be honest - mind clarifying a bit?. This is the sentence you took issue with -

"The long and short of it is that, in this particular instance, predominantly black, poor communities already *know* that they don't exist in the same society as rich white folk - they don't get the same services, the same treatment, the same benefits, or even the same right to *live* when faced with interactions with the police that a white person would walk away from."

Is any of that factually incorrect? I don't mention rich black people or poor white people because the comparison being made is between poor black communities and rich white communities. And it isn't just a 'poor versus rich' thing - not at all. I actually advocate for a left that partially de-emphasizes identity politics in favour of class-based discourse again, but in this case, it isn't fair to pretend that a poor black person and poor white person have the same chance of being shot dead by a police officer in identical scenarios. And I mentioned that ,too.
 
My point is that the colour is irrelevant, those getting the services are getting because they are rich and can afford them. A rich black person can afford and get the same services as a rich white person.

By comparing a rich white person with a poor black person you open up the route many take of saying see they just want everything because they see themselves as entitled victims.
It would be much better to compare the conditions of black and whites of similar economic standings.

I hope I'm not coming across as aggressive or not on your side, it's just that what I perceive as a weak argument let's people wriggle off the hook.
 
DubaiSpur said:
Maybe it was the drink talking, but I hope you didn't really mean to imply that the racial divide in the United States is comparable to the class divide in the UK. For one, the greatest assaults on class privilege in the UK were made in the period roughly following the end of the First World War and extended to Clement Attlee's historic victory in 1945 and his subsequent loss in 1951 - the struggle of black folk just to be seen as equal human beings in America only really came to an end in 1968 - never mind addressing the social, cultural and economic divides between white and black America, many of which persist to this day. The racial divide is much deeper and more damaging than the issue of class in the UK. Which is still a problem, don't get me wrong - but not one which is likely to see you being carelessly killed by the police for being a chav at the wheel of a car, or (in decades past) lynched for being a poor person talking to a rich lady. The dynamic is different.

It isn't a good comparison, is what I'm saying. Your 'bootstraps' advice may or may not work for the average poor person in Britain, but it probably won't work in the same way for black people, because they tried it - there was a time when black communities tried to prove their worth by being economically successful, as in the city of Tulsa in the 1910's and early 1920's. Tulsa was home to Greenwood, a large district known as the 'Black Wall Street' because of its affluence relative to the poorer white communities around it. It was an example of self-reliance and competitiveness on the part of the black community - and it infuriated the white folk in Tulsa so much that they burned it to the ground, using torches, dynamite and aircraft making bombing runs in one big race riot in 1921. Along the way, they killed around 300 black folk and destroyed the black community there forever. That was the reward black folk got for trying to 'bootstrap' their way up in America - that sort of thing has *never* happened in the history of class antagonism in the United Kingdom. There is no community of lower-class folk come good which was exterminated by middle-and-upper-class Brits in a day of violence - that sort of hatred never existed.

There are different, damaging prejudices at play, sure. But it's not the same.
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Not at all.

What I'm saying is that the divide in the US is one of class, not race. But because of the fact that black men are so heavily represented in the US working class, it's often confused for it.

All of the history you've posted is just that. I'm sure that history goes some or all of the way to explaining the make up of the working classes, but race isn't that cause of the divide.
 
scaramanga said:
Not at all.

What I'm saying is that the divide in the US is one of class, not race. But because of the fact that black men are so heavily represented in the US working class, it's often confused for it.

All of the history you've posted is just that. I'm sure that history goes some or all of the way to explaining the make up of the working classes, but race isn't that cause of the divide.
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There is definitely a class divide. But take a rich black man and a rich white man, put them in the same car (individually) and see which one gets pulled over by the cops and how they end up treated by the police. See the Wendell Pierce video I posted above; why is that experience so typical for black men in America? It's because there is a race divide, as well as class/money ones.
 
the dza said:
You'll notice when he describes being pulled over, he is so matter of fact about having a system "wallet on the dash, open the door from the outside" because it happens so often (being pulled over driving while black) and that if he doesn't do these things, he increases his risk of getting shot.

I hear Jerry Seinfeld talk about this all the time because of his similar experiences with police...
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That is really sad. One of my favourite actors as well. Shocking that these things go on.
 
scaramanga said:
Not at all.

What I'm saying is that the divide in the US is one of class, not race. But because of the fact that black men are so heavily represented in the US working class, it's often confused for it.

All of the history you've posted is just that. I'm sure that history goes some or all of the way to explaining the make up of the working classes, but race isn't that cause of the divide.
Click to expand...

Oh, I see - I misread your post, sorry. Well, as I explained to @glasgowspur, I partially disagree. Yes, it is definitely a class issue to some extent, but it's also the case that poor white folk and poor black folk still differ in terms of access to social services, equitable treatment by law enforcement and opportunities to move up the social ladder. A working class white person is less likely to end up dead or brutalized in a police encounter than a working class black person, even accounting for the disparity in crime rates between white and black America. A black person is likelier to be arrested on suspicion of drug possession, despite the fact that they do not disproportionately use or sell drugs compared to the white population. And working class white communities (in urban areas) enjoy greater access to government services and opportunities than working class black communities.

Is the issue one of class? Yes, and even Martin Luther King acknowledged as much when he mused about the fight for economic justice, a new Bill of Rights for all Americans and the need for democratic socialism (although I suspect you wouldn't like any of his thoughts on the issue :p ). But not *entirely* - race still plays a disproportionate role here. Which makes the UK-US comparison imperfect at best, and inapplicable at worst.
 
DubaiSpur said:
Oh, I see - I misread your post, sorry. Well, as I explained to @glasgowspur, I partially disagree. Yes, it is definitely a class issue to some extent, but it's also the case that poor white folk and poor black folk still differ in terms of access to social services, equitable treatment by law enforcement and opportunities to move up the social ladder. A working class white person is less likely to end up dead or brutalized in a police encounter than a working class black person, even accounting for the disparity in crime rates between white and black America. A black person is likelier to be arrested on suspicion of drug possession, despite the fact that they do not disproportionately use or sell drugs compared to the white population. And working class white communities (in urban areas) enjoy greater access to government services and opportunities than working class black communities.

Is the issue one of class? Yes, and even Martin Luther King acknowledged as much when he mused about the fight for economic justice, a new Bill of Rights for all Americans and the need for democratic socialism (although I suspect you wouldn't like any of his thoughts on the issue :p ). But not *entirely* - race still plays a disproportionate role here. Which makes the UK-US comparison imperfect at best, and inapplicable at worst.
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What about the disparity in treatment between working class black and Asian Americans? Or the difference in treatment between men and women - there must be some misogynists on the force too, right?

As for the disparity in arrests, most analyses I've read (not just right-leaning publications, brickrags like the Huffington Post too) point out the fact that the difference is down to the fact that black working class Americans tend to live in more densely populated areas. Police focus on more densely populated areas because their "hit rate" will be higher and because the damage caused by crime will have more effect than in less densely populated areas.
 
“I’m not good for medical. In other words, if you cut your finger and there’s blood pouring out, I’m gone,” he told Stern.

The former reality TV host then shares a story with Stern about the time he thought a man died in front of him during a charity event at his Palm Beach club Mar-a-Lago and, rather than helping the injured man, Trump turned away in disgust at the sight of his blood.

“I was at Mar-a-Lago and we had this incredible ball, the Red Cross Ball, in Palm Beach, Florida. And we had the Marines. And the Marines were there, and it was terrible because all these rich people, they’re there to support the Marines, but they’re really there to get their picture in the Palm Beach Post… so you have all these really rich people, and a man, about eighty years old—very wealthy man, a lot of people didn’t like him—he fell off the stage,” said Trump.

Trump proceeds to explain that it was a $100,000/table fundraiser filled with deep-pocketed billionaires, and that the Marines were—for whatever reason—given tables in the very back of the ballroom (“the worst table in the whole place”). Oh, and that he was more preoccupied with his ballroom’s pristine marble floor than the octogenarian bleeding out on it.

“So what happens is, this guy falls off right on his face, hits his head, and I thought he died. And you know what I did? I said, ‘Oh my GHod, that’s disgusting,’ and I turned away,” said Trump. “I couldn’t, you know, he was right in front of me and I turned away. I didn’t want to touch him… he’s bleeding all over the place, I felt terrible. You know, beautiful marble floor, didn’t look like it. It changed color. Became very red. And you have this poor guy, eighty years old, laying on the floor unconscious, and all the rich people are turning away. ‘Oh my GHod! This is terrible! This is disgusting!’ and you know, they’re turning away. Nobody wants to help the guy. His wife is screaming—she’s sitting right next to him, and she’s screaming.”

Thank GHod for the Marines. “What happens is, these ten Marines from the back of the room… they come running forward, they grab him, they put the blood all over the place—it’s all over their uniforms—they’re taking it, they’re swiping [it], they ran him out, they created a stretcher. They call it a human stretcher, where they put their arms out with, like, five guys on each side,” shared Trump.

“I was saying, ‘Get that blood cleaned up! It’s disgusting!’ The next day, I forgot to call [the man] to say he’s ok,” said Trump, adding of the blood, “It’s just not my thing.”

http://www.thedailybeast.com/the-ti...ust-while-a-man-bled-to-death-in-front-of-him
 
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