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Social change / growing old

M

Mr Gogolak

Milenko Acimovic
I'm not quite sure this deserves its own thread but I don't really know where it fits in either so...

First, my mind isn't really set on any of the following and that's precisely why I'm interested in reading other opinions. If it sounds confused, that's probably because it is.

I happen to work in football (as a translator, don't get excited) and I was reading a text about football coach instructors. I noticed that they really put a lot of focus on teaching people how to create a 'safe, inclusive and respectful' training environment and it got me thinking.

If you're over 40, you probably remember that people like Ferguson, Clough, Souness, Graham, Lobanovsky, Cruyff, Ivic... didn't care much about respect (at least for the players) and safety. The training environment was a reflection of the world they grew in, I'm guessing: clear, strong hierarchy. I've got a few friends who grew up in the UK and who are slightly older than me (around 60) and they described a very harsh school environment - let's just say we're not talking micro-aggressions, there...

And, at the same time, society as a whole was fairly permissive in the 80s and, I'd say, up until the 90s. I remember buying Sex Pistols tapes with Sid Vicious wearing swastika T-shirts on them. People were smoking everywhere. And you had Stone Cold Steve Austin on TV (childhood hero).

Now, 30 years later, people are talking about respect and inclusion and yet a) social relationships are tense to say the least and b) the only thing people seem to be interested in is bans and prohibition. It needs to be said at this point that this isn't about whether it's a 'good' or 'bad' thing. It's difficult to put the words on it, but I'm more curious about whether people have a different... let's say, if they see a different picture or if they feel differently about it.

As mentioned earlier, I haven't reached the stage where I can form an opinion. It's more like... I was reading this and suddenly, something felt... 'off' for lack of a better word.

As often, there's more than one explanation. For instance, it's clear that our perception of time has changed. Teaching and educating take time, and nobody wants to wait. Thus, forbidding is the easiest way to solve a problem (at least, in the short term). It could also be a natural thing. If I could go back in time and talk to my grand-parents, maybe they'd say something similar. The times they are a-changin' and it just so happens that you can't keep up with them. Everything suddenly looks... weird, out of place or whatever. It could also be the other way round and whatever environment you grow in sets the norm and when things finally change, you can't really adapt.

(or maybe I'm just looking for something to keep me away from work...)

Anyway, I just know about France and Croatia. Maybe it's different elsewhere. I'm also curious to know if other people sees it differently. Is it a personal, generational or general issue? So if you feel like sharing...
 
Mr Gogolak said:
If you're over 40, you probably remember that people like Ferguson, Clough, Souness, Graham, Lobanovsky, Cruyff, Ivic... didn't care much about respect (at least for the players) and safety.
Click to expand...

Great post by the way. I didn't reply to all of it but did pull out one of the key phases out of your post.

So I'm Teddy Sheringham and Cloughy says to me "I hope you washed your hands Edward". My response would have been. "Look I went to a grammar school and got called by my surname for 5 years. Please pay me the respect of calling me by my chosen name Teddy". I would not have even entertained whether he wanted to know whether I washed my hands or not. None of his business.

I remember when I was 17 years old and had just been pulled up into our 1st team in my first year of men's football. So had 2 other mates of mine of the same age. The old manager had gone and the new manager had wanted ball players (lol - at that level). So we lost the match 2-0 and it was clear that the "protected few" (by the old manager) were going to use that to get their mate back in charge. The old manager was even in there. So a row ensued in the changing room and after 10 mins the "seniors" were getting nowhere. So I took my boots off and put my shoes on and got up to walk out in full kit. I was told to sit down, so I gave the old guard a round of f_u_cks and walked out in full kit. I'd played for that club since 8 years old. I could see what was really happening. The new manager was just laughing as I left and the rest of them sat there for another 30 mins apparently after I left. I was captain of that club at 21.

I guess the point I'm making is that there has always been respect both ways. You just have to earn it..both directions. Cloughy was loved by his players but would have reacted positively to feedback from Teddy. He wouldn't have dropped Teddy but would have started calling him "Teddy". He knew Teddy was a great trainer, great guy and great footballer. Whatever he put on for show in front of the cameras wouldn't apply. He just wanted happy players who behaved and executed what he asked for.

With myself I think most of that club knew that I was being more proprietorial about it than them. They knew that club was a birth right where my family had been raised. They knew my dad played for that club and they knew they were politicking rather than focusing on football. I just called them out on it. I was always the arm round the shoulder type with all my managers in sport and work. I played with lots of players that weren't though. However, most of that type in my age group never took anything personally. They just moved on.

What we're really talking about now though is that horrible term "snowflake generation". I swear I'd never really used the word "entitled" for most of my life. I never had a high awareness about traits like "passive aggression". Entitlement and passive aggression seems to be way more prominent now. I think they are the 2 traits that the older generation managers may have struggled with. Teddy was neither to Clough or Fergie. I'm not sure I'd say the same about some of our current players.
 
Mr Gogolak said:
I'm not quite sure this deserves its own thread but I don't really know where it fits in either so...

First, my mind isn't really set on any of the following and that's precisely why I'm interested in reading other opinions. If it sounds confused, that's probably because it is.

I happen to work in football (as a translator, don't get excited) and I was reading a text about football coach instructors. I noticed that they really put a lot of focus on teaching people how to create a 'safe, inclusive and respectful' training environment and it got me thinking.

If you're over 40, you probably remember that people like Ferguson, Clough, Souness, Graham, Lobanovsky, Cruyff, Ivic... didn't care much about respect (at least for the players) and safety. The training environment was a reflection of the world they grew in, I'm guessing: clear, strong hierarchy. I've got a few friends who grew up in the UK and who are slightly older than me (around 60) and they described a very harsh school environment - let's just say we're not talking micro-aggressions, there...

And, at the same time, society as a whole was fairly permissive in the 80s and, I'd say, up until the 90s. I remember buying Sex Pistols tapes with Sid Vicious wearing swastika T-shirts on them. People were smoking everywhere. And you had Stone Cold Steve Austin on TV (childhood hero).

Now, 30 years later, people are talking about respect and inclusion and yet a) social relationships are tense to say the least and b) the only thing people seem to be interested in is bans and prohibition. It needs to be said at this point that this isn't about whether it's a 'good' or 'bad' thing. It's difficult to put the words on it, but I'm more curious about whether people have a different... let's say, if they see a different picture or if they feel differently about it.

As mentioned earlier, I haven't reached the stage where I can form an opinion. It's more like... I was reading this and suddenly, something felt... 'off' for lack of a better word.

As often, there's more than one explanation. For instance, it's clear that our perception of time has changed. Teaching and educating take time, and nobody wants to wait. Thus, forbidding is the easiest way to solve a problem (at least, in the short term). It could also be a natural thing. If I could go back in time and talk to my grand-parents, maybe they'd say something similar. The times they are a-changin' and it just so happens that you can't keep up with them. Everything suddenly looks... weird, out of place or whatever. It could also be the other way round and whatever environment you grow in sets the norm and when things finally change, you can't really adapt.

(or maybe I'm just looking for something to keep me away from work...)

Anyway, I just know about France and Croatia. Maybe it's different elsewhere. I'm also curious to know if other people sees it differently. Is it a personal, generational or general issue? So if you feel like sharing...
Click to expand...
Not sure if this is in any way contributing to the conversation or just a braindump from me...

I remember two incidents from when I played as a kid.

First one was when 17 of us showed up to a pre season friendly game at under 12. I was a 'keeper at the time but they'd brought in another lad who was better than me. They agreed that it'd be 11 plus 5 subs with the opposition. I was told I was the one who wouldn't even be on the bench. I was distraught and remember going home in tears really upset about it. I was determined it'd never happen again though and it didn't.

Second one, I was in the dressing room before a game probably about a year later and the chairman (same fella who made the above decision) was saying a few words before the game and I was talking to my mate. In front of the squad, he said "After your performance last week, you've no business laughing and joking. Get serious". It was a dagger through my heart to be spoken to like that and in front of a dressing room. But even at 12 years of age, I knew he was right and never really held it against him.

Neither incident would happen nowadays and, as a parent of two kids who play the game, I'd probably react much worse to it happening to them than I would have when it happened to me. Maybe that's because I had control over how I dealt with it and maybe I'm underestimating their resilience. Maybe the "snowflake" problem isn't the kids, it's parents who try to protect their kids from every little setback or criticism.

I know a few months ago, my 13 year old lad played and generally his attitude is good on the pitch. On that morning, his attitude stank the place out. Whinging and bitching at team mates, not tracking back. tinkle poor overall. That said, he had a hand in both goals his team scored. At half time I went around, pulled him aside and hammered him. Badly ("You're a f**king disgrace out there"). He burst into tears. I regretted it straight away because it's not something I ever do but I just can't abide a bad attitude on a pitch. It wasn't my place to do it at half time and I went way too hard anyway so I did apologise after the game. He hasn't done it since though so not sure if the end somewhat justified the means and he dealt with it or I've done something that will be more damaging in the long term.
 
There's two things that bug me about modern society (probably a lot more but two I can think of now).

The incessant comparisons to everyone else, driven by and driving social media. Going to a gig, an event, a holiday is no longer about the experience for you, but to show it off. Make you feel better about yourself as you watch the hundreds of stories from the other people you follow every day.

And this idea that everything has to be for everyone. It's fine if you don't like something. Move on, no one cares. Women's football is probably the clearest example I can give. And that's probably aligned well with Ricky Gervais' joke:

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(dunno if this aligns with the theme of discipline)
 
It's not exactly like the first post was a philosophical masterpiece perfectly articulated so let's not worry about whether the replies are consistent with the theme at all. As I mentioned, I'm grateful for any kind of imput because I'm at that stage where I can 'feel' something is bugging me but I still can't quite put my finger on it.

Best way to deal with it, as far as I'm concerned, is to ask around, see if it resonates with someone or something and if something will help me push the thought any further. That's the cool thing with message boards - it's like tossing a bottle into the sea. You never know what's going to come out of it.

Unfortunately, I've just turned 50 which is that ridiculous age bracket where you're no longer young, but you still don't feel old. With that in mind, I think it's undeniable that the way criticism is perceived has considerably changed. I got a lot of stick as a kid because of the long hair, but taking the jibes on the chin was part of the schooling, or so it felt anyway. Like, you had to go through that, then you'd become an adult and you could say 'fudge you'.

Now, it seems people have gone the other way and they very much want to protect their kids, but on the flip side, this has spread to the whole society - even as an adult, you're still being 'looked after' and it seems to come with the price that, as an adult, you're no longer allowed to say 'fudge you', just 'thank you'.

Again, I'm not saying this is a good or a bad thing. I'm not there yet and using that kind of labels is pretty much like shaking your fist at the sky. It makes you feel better, but doesn't change anything. At this point, I'd just like to get a clearer idea of... let's say of that change or evolution or whatever you want to call it.
 
Mr Gogolak said:
It's not exactly like the first post was a philosophical masterpiece perfectly articulated so let's not worry about whether the replies are consistent with the theme at all. As I mentioned, I'm grateful for any kind of imput because I'm at that stage where I can 'feel' something is bugging me but I still can't quite put my finger on it.

Best way to deal with it, as far as I'm concerned, is to ask around, see if it resonates with someone or something and if something will help me push the thought any further. That's the cool thing with message boards - it's like tossing a bottle into the sea. You never know what's going to come out of it.

Unfortunately, I've just turned 50 which is that ridiculous age bracket where you're no longer young, but you still don't feel old. With that in mind, I think it's undeniable that the way criticism is perceived has considerably changed. I got a lot of stick as a kid because of the long hair, but taking the jibes on the chin was part of the schooling, or so it felt anyway. Like, you had to go through that, then you'd become an adult and you could say 'fudge you'.

Now, it seems people have gone the other way and they very much want to protect their kids, but on the flip side, this has spread to the whole society - even as an adult, you're still being 'looked after' and it seems to come with the price that, as an adult, you're no longer allowed to say 'fudge you', just 'thank you'.

Again, I'm not saying this is a good or a bad thing. I'm not there yet and using that kind of labels is pretty much like shaking your fist at the sky. It makes you feel better, but doesn't change anything. At this point, I'd just like to get a clearer idea of... let's say of that change or evolution or whatever you want to call it.
Click to expand...

Not sure is this is on brand with the theme or whats meant, so apologies on the segway but we were talking about things as you get older and what you would change, how your feelings change and perceptions and its interesting to see what people say. Someones kid being teased for long hair at school and we said how a journey likely goes that the kid will cut his hair off but come 14 he would grow it back and not give 2 flying fcuks.

As I have got older I have cared less and less about perception, if anything my 20s gave me anxiety on what people thought, then you notice things where you notice in reality it doesn't matter and many peoples opinion, in reality don't matter.........within reason.

Easier now I am 43 and I have my own business to take that a step further. I work with who I want to, when I want to and I care little for people who drag me down or have the potential too, I have to say, I have never been happier.

Social media is creating a new world, one in which I don't like, it is a world of extremes, I often scroll YT shorts and the comments section is just so sad and extreme, its either extreme hero worship or jealousy based anger, no middle ground, no nuance, no thought process
 
MartyFunkhouser said:
Social media is creating a new world, one in which I don't like, it is a world of extremes, I often scroll YT shorts and the comments section is just so sad and extreme, its either extreme hero worship or jealousy based anger, no middle ground, no nuance, no thought process
Click to expand...
I hardly do any social media (probably long form YT the most) BUT I (for no apparent reason) have never gone near or thought about trawling the comment section on any platform.....it's just so faceless, does it ever add anything?
 
Muttley said:
Great post by the way. I didn't reply to all of it but did pull out one of the key phases out of your post.

So I'm Teddy Sheringham and Cloughy says to me "I hope you washed your hands Edward". My response would have been. "Look I went to a grammar school and got called by my surname for 5 years. Please pay me the respect of calling me by my chosen name Teddy". I would not have even entertained whether he wanted to know whether I washed my hands or not. None of his business.

I remember when I was 17 years old and had just been pulled up into our 1st team in my first year of men's football. So had 2 other mates of mine of the same age. The old manager had gone and the new manager had wanted ball players (lol - at that level). So we lost the match 2-0 and it was clear that the "protected few" (by the old manager) were going to use that to get their mate back in charge. The old manager was even in there. So a row ensued in the changing room and after 10 mins the "seniors" were getting nowhere. So I took my boots off and put my shoes on and got up to walk out in full kit. I was told to sit down, so I gave the old guard a round of f_u_cks and walked out in full kit. I'd played for that club since 8 years old. I could see what was really happening. The new manager was just laughing as I left and the rest of them sat there for another 30 mins apparently after I left. I was captain of that club at 21.

I guess the point I'm making is that there has always been respect both ways. You just have to earn it..both directions. Cloughy was loved by his players but would have reacted positively to feedback from Teddy. He wouldn't have dropped Teddy but would have started calling him "Teddy". He knew Teddy was a great trainer, great guy and great footballer. Whatever he put on for show in front of the cameras wouldn't apply. He just wanted happy players who behaved and executed what he asked for.

With myself I think most of that club knew that I was being more proprietorial about it than them. They knew that club was a birth right where my family had been raised. They knew my dad played for that club and they knew they were politicking rather than focusing on football. I just called them out on it. I was always the arm round the shoulder type with all my managers in sport and work. I played with lots of players that weren't though. However, most of that type in my age group never took anything personally. They just moved on.

What we're really talking about now though is that horrible term "snowflake generation". I swear I'd never really used the word "entitled" for most of my life. I never had a high awareness about traits like "passive aggression". Entitlement and passive aggression seems to be way more prominent now. I think they are the 2 traits that the older generation managers may have struggled with. Teddy was neither to Clough or Fergie. I'm not sure I'd say the same about some of our current players.
Click to expand...
So full kit w**ker? Am I taking the wrong message from this ?
 
Mr Gogolak said:
It's not exactly like the first post was a philosophical masterpiece perfectly articulated so let's not worry about whether the replies are consistent with the theme at all. As I mentioned, I'm grateful for any kind of imput because I'm at that stage where I can 'feel' something is bugging me but I still can't quite put my finger on it.

Best way to deal with it, as far as I'm concerned, is to ask around, see if it resonates with someone or something and if something will help me push the thought any further. That's the cool thing with message boards - it's like tossing a bottle into the sea. You never know what's going to come out of it.

Unfortunately, I've just turned 50 which is that ridiculous age bracket where you're no longer young, but you still don't feel old. With that in mind, I think it's undeniable that the way criticism is perceived has considerably changed. I got a lot of stick as a kid because of the long hair, but taking the jibes on the chin was part of the schooling, or so it felt anyway. Like, you had to go through that, then you'd become an adult and you could say 'fudge you'.

Now, it seems people have gone the other way and they very much want to protect their kids, but on the flip side, this has spread to the whole society - even as an adult, you're still being 'looked after' and it seems to come with the price that, as an adult, you're no longer allowed to say 'fudge you', just 'thank you'.

Again, I'm not saying this is a good or a bad thing. I'm not there yet and using that kind of labels is pretty much like shaking your fist at the sky. It makes you feel better, but doesn't change anything. At this point, I'd just like to get a clearer idea of... let's say of that change or evolution or whatever you want to call it.
Click to expand...
School has changed massively I think. I remember being in school and fights were commonplace. I remember being in a few myself where noses were bloodied and eyes blackened. I went to school near a couple or rougher areas and there was a group of 4-5 lads from notorious families who spent their days bullying everyone else. It was physical, it was verbal and it was financial (literally taking lunch money). Like every other kid in my year, I got it when it was my turn. You just sort of accepted it as part of school. I didn't hate them - when it wasn't my turn I was reasonably friendly with them. I don't carry any resentment over it. It's just the way it was - they didn't really target me any more than anyone else. It's mad when you think of it.

Today, that doesn't happen for my kids. I don't think either of my kids have ever been in a proper fight. They go to school in a better area admittedly. Then again, they have to deal with things I didn't - things like social media and the app the school has that reports any bad behaviour or absence to parents in real time. Their world is very different from mine when I was their age.

Are kids less resilient? Definitely, in some respects they are less resilient. That has transferred to the workplace too. I manage a team of 30 people and there is some people about half my age. They've very different expectations and demands. I was always of the view that "if I'm not bringing in as much as my salary or saving the company the equivalent of my salary, I shouldn't be here". Now there is a very different sense of entitlement regardless of the standard and impact of their work and I'm not sure how I feel about it.

In terms of what I can say or do in an office/work environment, I'm so careful now compared to 10, 15 or 20 years ago. Any comments that are even mildly sexual are well off limits. Any comments that could demean anyone in any way are also off limits. Criticism has to be very carefully delivered to the point that it can be barely recognisable as criticism. I don't like the aversion to criticism bit but I do fully appreciate the restrictions on some of the comments that would have been acceptable decades ago. To me they are innocuous but I'm a white, heterosexual male. I'd never have intended any offence but I may have caused some (not that I was going around talking like Alf Garnett or any differently to many people in the offices I worked in).

So yeah...what was I talking about again? :)
 
MartyFunkhouser said:
Not sure is this is on brand with the theme or whats meant, so apologies on the segway but we were talking about things as you get older and what you would change, how your feelings change and perceptions and its interesting to see what people say. Someones kid being teased for long hair at school and we said how a journey likely goes that the kid will cut his hair off but come 14 he would grow it back and not give 2 flying fcuks.

As I have got older I have cared less and less about perception, if anything my 20s gave me anxiety on what people thought, then you notice things where you notice in reality it doesn't matter and many peoples opinion, in reality don't matter.........within reason.

Easier now I am 43 and I have my own business to take that a step further. I work with who I want to, when I want to and I care little for people who drag me down or have the potential too, I have to say, I have never been happier.

Social media is creating a new world, one in which I don't like, it is a world of extremes, I often scroll YT shorts and the comments section is just so sad and extreme, its either extreme hero worship or jealousy based anger, no middle ground, no nuance, no thought process
Click to expand...

Not just directed at you Marty but if you use Apple devices 1Blocker is a fantastic ad blocker that also has the option to hide comments. I often find myself scrolling down to read YT comments, seeing they’re not visible and thinking “oh yeah, why on earth would I want to read those anyway?”
 
tommysvr said:
There's two things that bug me about modern society (probably a lot more but two I can think of now).

The incessant comparisons to everyone else, driven by and driving social media. Going to a gig, an event, a holiday is no longer about the experience for you, but to show it off. Make you feel better about yourself as you watch the hundreds of stories from the other people you follow every day.

And this idea that everything has to be for everyone. It's fine if you don't like something. Move on, no one cares. Women's football is probably the clearest example I can give. And that's probably aligned well with Ricky Gervais' joke:

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(dunno if this aligns with the theme of discipline)
Click to expand...

On point for me too!
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
I hardly do any social media (probably long form YT the most) BUT I (for no apparent reason) have never gone near or thought about trawling the comment section on any platform.....it's just so faceless, does it ever add anything?
Click to expand...

No it doesn't and I really probably shouldn't, I only read the top level and give up, with good reason.

But I have to say, its a worrying insight into the world

@tommysvr thanks pal, will give it a gander
 
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