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Thomas Frank - Head Coach

Muttley said:
I think it's OK saying we need more quality. I guess that never stops being the case with any top club.

More than that though, I think Frank needs access to Solanke and Kulu. When I think back to the Ange teams, they were nothing without these 2 guys. Ange became so dependent on Solanke as his movement is top class and he is always making himself available for a pass. He drags people around to create space for other players, something Kulu was benefitting greatly from.

I also still feel the lopsidedness of the team. I like Spence but really want to see a leftie at LB. Spence isn't getting on the outside and is congesting Xavi's space. When you have a double pivot midfield you need wide full-backs. It's then the wide fullbacks that keep their markers occupied and create the space for the inside players to be creative. We are missing that at the moment on the left when Udogie isn't in the team.

Put Solanke dragging people around and creating space up top along with the full-backs doing the majority of their work in the wide space and I reckon this thing starts to look different. Creative space will then appear.
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What Solanke and Kulusevski would give us more than anything is better hold up play, target man type players.

We're imo playing a style that requires that, without having those players in the front line.

We're not even trying to play through the middle, particularly with Romero out. Only around the sides or long. Simons/Bergvall are very technical, but not really getting on the ball in that 10 role.

I'm not a big fan of this style personally, but it can definitely work with the right players. Solanke and Kulusevski would add a good deal of what we miss.

I hope Frank has a plan for playing more through the middle at some point.
 
I can’t actually believe the fallacy that Ange played good, exciting football still exists tbh but I think that’s set in mythology forever now.

I think playing in the Chanpions League this season has skewed the idea of how good we actually are for some, I don’t think we’re currently Champions league level personally, we’re there because we won the Europa League (which is one thing I will always thank Ange for just for balance) which let’s be honest, is a very different set of teams with a different quality level.

In terms of consistently playing in a way that would actually achieve us CL through the league I really do think we’re some way off. I’m expectant and ok with us finishing about 7th this season, I just want European qualification, so EL or ECL. We should be playing in Europe every year, and as much as I’d love us to be in the CL I think we’re have to be realistic about what this team is consistently capable of.

We need a LB, we’re absolutely crying out for a real quality option at both LW and ST, and honestly I’d look for an additional option for the middle who can actually link that solid base with our attacking players with some quality on the ball. A lot of people are still caught in the mentality of the last 20 years, I think we need some time, patience and to see how the new set up with Vini, Frank, his coaching team, Paratici and Lange all shakes out. We’ve made a lot of changes off the pitch and that needs some time and windows for a new strategy to pay off.

We were absolutely rotten the other night, and rightfully called on it. I do think Frank, given time, can really achieve something here, and I completely get that after so many near misses and false dawns it’s hard to talk about having patience again. However I think we simply have to be patient here, and give it all time for the skilled people we have in place to work it all out. I’m hopeful we can get some business done in January, and I also think we will see a difference when Solanke, Kulusevski and some others are back.
 
braineclipse said:
What Solanke and Kulusevski would give us more than anything is better hold up play, target man type players.

We're imo playing a style that requires that, without having those players in the front line.

We're not even trying to play through the middle, particularly with Romero out. Only around the sides or long. Simons/Bergvall are very technical, but not really getting on the ball in that 10 role.

I'm not a big fan of this style personally, but it can definitely work with the right players. Solanke and Kulusevski would add a good deal of what we miss.

I hope Frank has a plan for playing more through the middle at some point.
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This, essentially, is the only question which really counts. It's the one which I think all conversations over the past week lead to. It's certainly where I'm at. And I suppose it will require patience and this season to see if such plans become visible. The horseshoe is not a philosophy I want to see us built on.
 
thfcsteff said:
This, essentially, is the only question which really counts. It's the one which I think all conversations over the past week lead to. It's certainly where I'm at. And I suppose it will require patience and this season to see if such plans become visible. The horseshoe is not a philosophy I want to see us built on.
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Agreed.

I think it will be a challenging change to make. A significant part of our increased defensive solidity is built on not taking risks. Not playing through the centre, not pushing that many players forward a step.

Hopefully this is step one, integrating a style that we can then continue to use in some games, in some phases of games.

Right now though having two of Palhinha, Bentancur and Sarr in midfield and having them almost always take the "safe" option seems the only way we know how to play unless being a goal down and throwing all caution to the wind at the end.

For me personally a change to that cannot come quickly enough. I'm surprised that what we saw against Burnley (Gray, Sarr, Bergvall trio in midfield) hasn't been built on as one approach (two of Simons, Bergvall, Gray in the midfield three) to also take. But I respect that Frank sees it differently to me and that he knows a hell of a lot more than me about everything football related.
 
Sorry if I’ve missed it but has Frank said anywhere that his plan is to fix the defence first then move on to the attack or is that the collective assumption? I’ve heard and read that this is the case but not seen him explicitly say it
 
Rafa87 said:
I can’t actually believe the fallacy that Ange played good, exciting football still exists tbh but I think that’s set in mythology forever now.

I think playing in the Chanpions League this season has skewed the idea of how good we actually are for some, I don’t think we’re currently Champions league level personally, we’re there because we won the Europa League (which is one thing I will always thank Ange for just for balance) which let’s be honest, is a very different set of teams with a different quality level.

In terms of consistently playing in a way that would actually achieve us CL through the league I really do think we’re some way off. I’m expectant and ok with us finishing about 7th this season, I just want European qualification, so EL or ECL. We should be playing in Europe every year, and as much as I’d love us to be in the CL I think we’re have to be realistic about what this team is consistently capable of.

We need a LB, we’re absolutely crying out for a real quality option at both LW and ST, and honestly I’d look for an additional option for the middle who can actually link that solid base with our attacking players with some quality on the ball. A lot of people are still caught in the mentality of the last 20 years, I think we need some time, patience and to see how the new set up with Vini, Frank, his coaching team, Paratici and Lange all shakes out. We’ve made a lot of changes off the pitch and that needs some time and windows for a new strategy to pay off.

We were absolutely rotten the other night, and rightfully called on it. I do think Frank, given time, can really achieve something here, and I completely get that after so many near misses and false dawns it’s hard to talk about having patience again. However I think we simply have to be patient here, and give it all time for the skilled people we have in place to work it all out. I’m hopeful we can get some business done in January, and I also think we will see a difference when Solanke, Kulusevski and some others are back.
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The teams we have played in the CL so far this campaign have been reasonably Europa League quality IMO. We have also had a pretty easy start to the season in terms of league and cup fixtures (the tough bit of the season started against Villa last weekend).

I am similar to you in hoping for European qualification, though I want that to be Europa League. We actually have a reasonable chance of winning that competition if we qualify for it. Though, I really do think that you have to sacrifice league position to do so (as we did last season).

I agree 100% that we need another option for left back (and have said that for a long while). Spence defends the left flank well but our attacking threat is vastly reduced when he plays at left back because he is largely unable to go on the outside (which Frank's tactics demand). Regarding the CF position, I was quietly enthused by Muani's performance when he came on Wednesday night. He actually seemed to be able to compete with the opposition's defenders, get on the ball and bring others into play, things that we don't get from Richarlison, who currently looks to me as though he is going through the motions as opposed to giving his all.
 
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braineclipse said:
Agreed.

I think it will be a challenging change to make. A significant part of our increased defensive solidity is built on not taking risks. Not playing through the centre, not pushing that many players forward a step.

Hopefully this is step one, integrating a style that we can then continue to use in some games, in some phases of games.

Right now though having two of Palhinha, Bentancur and Sarr in midfield and having them almost always take the "safe" option seems the only way we know how to play unless being a goal down and throwing all caution to the wind at the end.

For me personally a change to that cannot come quickly enough. I'm surprised that what we saw against Burnley (Gray, Sarr, Bergvall trio in midfield) hasn't been built on as one approach (two of Simons, Bergvall, Gray in the midfield three) to also take. But I respect that Frank sees it differently to me and that he knows a hell of a lot more than me about everything football related.
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I'm surprised as well that the Bentancur/Paulinha axis appears so favourable regardless of opposition. As a sidenote we need to be careful with Paulinha, he really does give his all, EVERY game. With a tough run approaching I'd have tried to give him a game off or at least hooked him on 60-70 mins in some games.

I digress, we have quality, albeit young, options in midfield, but they need to play. Sarr was on a roll, now barely playing. Archie looks a massively assured player whenever I've seen him. Lucas can give us drive and connection with the front 3 or 4.

I can wait though. 1 month is the new 3 months these days, unless you don't read about football too much (as largely, what's the point).
 
braineclipse said:
Agreed.

I think it will be a challenging change to make. A significant part of our increased defensive solidity is built on not taking risks. Not playing through the centre, not pushing that many players forward a step.

Hopefully this is step one, integrating a style that we can then continue to use in some games, in some phases of games.

Right now though having two of Palhinha, Bentancur and Sarr in midfield and having them almost always take the "safe" option seems the only way we know how to play unless being a goal down and throwing all caution to the wind at the end.

For me personally a change to that cannot come quickly enough. I'm surprised that what we saw against Burnley (Gray, Sarr, Bergvall trio in midfield) hasn't been built on as one approach (two of Simons, Bergvall, Gray in the midfield three) to also take. But I respect that Frank sees it differently to me and that he knows a hell of a lot more than me about everything football related.
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Feels strange to me for a manager to have 'step 1' to implement his style. From what I remember of Frank's Brentford team what we are seeing now IS the style and not just 'step 1'.

From what I've seen so far I think Frank needs to realise that he is no longer at a small club like Brentford and has to deploy a more attacking gameplan by default, only reverting to 'Brentford ball' against certain teams or in certain situations in games.
 
The first thing Frank must do is understand he is at a club where he can never satisfy all the fanbase. Our fans are as split as the Labour party with factions wanting different things, football with style, winning trophies, getting in CL, winning at all cost sod style, clean sheets, pragmatism, great players, consistent players, formation (pick one you like) and not getting beat.
Once he can tick a few of those boxes he has a chance of being acceptable to some.
 
clownfoot said:
Sorry if I’ve missed it but has Frank said anywhere that his plan is to fix the defence first then move on to the attack or is that the collective assumption? I’ve heard and read that this is the case but not seen him explicitly say it
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He spoke about it at the fans forum a week or two ago (around 35:40):

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braineclipse said:
Agreed.

I think it will be a challenging change to make. A significant part of our increased defensive solidity is built on not taking risks. Not playing through the centre, not pushing that many players forward a step.

Hopefully this is step one, integrating a style that we can then continue to use in some games, in some phases of games.

Right now though having two of Palhinha, Bentancur and Sarr in midfield and having them almost always take the "safe" option seems the only way we know how to play unless being a goal down and throwing all caution to the wind at the end.

For me personally a change to that cannot come quickly enough. I'm surprised that what we saw against Burnley (Gray, Sarr, Bergvall trio in midfield) hasn't been built on as one approach (two of Simons, Bergvall, Gray in the midfield three) to also take. But I respect that Frank sees it differently to me and that he knows a hell of a lot more than me about everything football related.
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When we did throw caution to the wind against Villa we easily could have scored, lesson for Frank there really.
 
Bedfordspurs said:
Every time we press and chase we do well
When we sit and park we are awful because we don’t pass well
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That's rubbish. The difference is that when we press and chase, if we win the ball back, we're often 30-50 meters closer to their goal, and with fewer defenders behind the ball. When we sit back, it's a long way to the goal, and more defenders to get by.
 
Bedfordspurs said:
But we dont pass well
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thfcsteff said:
Technically we are once again not executing even simple passes properly. That is undeniable.
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We are lucky to see any two touch, let alone any one touch passing at the moment. Stop. Look. Assess. Turn. Look. Stop etc. then often the safe pass, probably because any progressive pass option has been covered by now. Yeah I suppose relationships are building?

On a wider note...One thing I find baffling or at least a conundrum is the ability of top players to feel nervous, unconfident and lacking in belief when it comes to the relative simple task of passing and moving.
The reason I say this, is because when we played Bodo this year their ability to make passing look easy, and I mean not just in the safe areas of the pitch, but all over, astounded me. These are a gaggle of players brought together way up in the artic circle. Hardly a desirable place to play or earn big money, yet even they can make the game look so smooth and simple. Yes, their coach has had them for a long time BUT it just goes to show that even that far down the scale it must be mostly a mentality thing. And you might think they'd only play with such personality in their own league, but they don't, they play just the same whether it's us, Roma, Lazio, Porto.
What would then ultimately limit them is their ability but what they do prove is the level of ability to carry out fluid passing doesn't have to be that high.
 
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