Eric Dier

[Olle73]

It's a beautiful ideology, but sadly just not a realistic one and has never existed in competitive sports.
By comparison we are squeeky clean

Utimately it is we, as supporters, that is paying and approving this kind of behaviour. If the supporters leaves a cheating club, that club will be no more. Personally such behaviour could in the end cost my support of the club, at least economically.

 

[braineclipse]

Utimately it is we, as supporters, that is paying and approving this kind of behaviour. If the supporters leaves a cheating club, that club will be no more. Personally such behaviour could in the end cost my support of the club, at least economically.

I think the financial incentives of being successful and winning things more than outweighs the financial incentives of some fans being unhappy with "such behaviour" (whatever it is you're referring to).

TV-money, price money, sponsorship earnings, growth of fan base... So much coming in financially from success on the pitch.

Personally things like a bit of shirt pulling, cynical fouls, challenging somewhat unfairly for an aerial duel etc is all part of the game.

 

[Spur of the moment]

FA-cup semi final coming up against Chelsea. Would you rather see us lose than be sneaky?

Yes, absolutely. What the hell is the point of watching football if it all comes down to is which side is the best at deliberate cheating? Is not that why we call them Cheatski? What respect does it command?

You may think it's clever but I do not. I want to be entertained not tinkled off by what I am witnessing. Of course I have to accept that a fair bit of it goes on and always will but it's not what Tottenham are about and if it ever does become the way we play in order to win trophies then I'm out.

I have nothing but contempt for teams that put winning at all costs above the art of the beautiful game. It's why I despise Leicester City, the way Huth was allowed to get away with thuggishness game after game means for me the trophy they won was worth nothing. I do not give a fig what others think either, that is for them to deal with.

 

[braineclipse]

Yes, absolutely. What the hell is the point of watching football if all it come down to ultimately is which side is the best at deliberate cheating? Is not that why we call them Cheatski? What respect does it command?

You may think it's clever but I do not. I want to be entertained not tinkled off by what I am witnessing. Of course I have to accept that a fair bit of it goes on and always will but it's not what Tottenham are about and if it ever does become the way we play in order to win trophies then I'm out.

I have nothing but contempt for teams that put winning at all costs above the art of the beautiful game. It's why I despise Leicester City, the way Huth was allowed to get away with thuggishness game after game means for me the trophy they won was worth nothing. I do not give a fig what others think either, that is for them to deal with.

Part of your posts makes it seem like you either think of or try to talk about this this as an either/or situation. Something I don't think it is.

I'm not saying we should try to maximize our cheating. But accepting that a fair bit of it goes on (as you say) I don't want us to be at a clear disadvantage to our competitors and thus making it all the more difficult to succeed and win trophies.

This is what I mean by saying that Dier should learn to be sneaky like Vertonghen. Saying that I want Dier to be more sneaky in aerial duels to me has very little to do with what you bring up. What does what I have to say to do with football coming down to which side is the best at cheating, or wanting to be entertained rather than tinkled off?

 

[Olle73]

TV-money, price money, sponsorship earnings, growth of fan base... So much coming in financially from success on the pitch.

What is the core, the engine for that? The fans. No fans means no money , in the end. So we as a homogenous group (something that we aren't) have the power to decide, but only if we act as group. But it is enough to read in this forum to draw the conclusion that we will never be able to act as group.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Yes, absolutely. What the hell is the point of watching football if all it come down to ultimately is which side is the best at deliberate cheating? Is not that why we call them Cheatski? What respect does it command?

You may think it's clever but I do not. I want to be entertained not tinkled off by what I am witnessing. Of course I have to accept that a fair bit of it goes on and always will but it's not what Tottenham are about and if it ever does become the way we play in order to win trophies then I'm out.

I have nothing but contempt for teams that put winning at all costs above the art of the beautiful game. It's why I despise Leicester City, the way Huth was allowed to get away with thuggishness game after game means for me the trophy they won was worth nothing. I do not give a fig what others think either, that is for them to deal with.

Found something i can agree on with you.

 

[braineclipse]

What is the core, the engine for that? The fans. No fans means no money , in the end. So we as a homogenous group (something that we aren't) have the power to decide, but only if we act as group. But it is enough to read in this forum to draw the conclusion that we will never be able to act as group.

Fans are attracted to very different things. And some of the fans of one club withdrawing from their club (for whatever reason) will do little to change the overall financial potential of that club if that club manages to maintain (or improve) success on the pitch.

Like you say we're far from a homogenous group, and that's one of the strengths of football in my mind. The real world financial impact of what described is very small compared to the financial impact of success (or failure) on the pitch.

 

[Spur of the moment]

Part of your posts makes it seem like you either think of or try to talk about this this as an either/or situation. Something I don't think it is.

I'm not saying we should try to maximize our cheating. But accepting that a fair bit of it goes on (as you say) I don't want us to be at a clear disadvantage to our competitors and thus making it all the more difficult to succeed and win trophies.

This is what I mean by saying that Dier should learn to be sneaky like Vertonghen. Saying that I want Dier to be more sneaky in aerial duels to me has very little to do with what you bring up. What does what I have to say to do with football coming down to which side is the best at cheating, or wanting to be entertained rather than tinkled off?

I am frankly appalled that you want to see Dier to become as sneaky as Vertonghen. It has everything to do with what I bring up and I am astonished that you seem unable to recognise how fundamental it is to the way we play the game.

I wholly reject your argument that if the other side cheats then you have to sink to their level. You just don't. We have brilliantly outplayed Cheatski a couple of times in recent years without ever resorting to their sly tactics or gamesmanship so we have proved that it is not necessary to sink to their level in order to win.

Clearly for many fans winning trophies has become the be-all and end-all but for me it will always come a poor second to playing the game the way it should be played. I repeat I want to enjoy watching football, not cheatball. I have absolutely no problem with playing the game physically hard and with passion, in fact I relish it - so long us it does not extend to deliberately trying to put others out of the game through reckless Roy Keane-type leg-breakers.

But sneakiness is something I have always abhorred and always will. It is something I will never ever be able to bring myself to approve of, no matter the price we have to pay.

As Danny once said, the game is about glory. I take pride in the fact we emblazon these words around are stadium. Long may we continue to aspire to them.

 

[braineclipse]

I am frankly appalled that you want to see Dier to become as sneaky as Vertonghen. It has everything to do with what I bring up and I am astonished that you seem unable to recognise how fundamental it is to the way we play the game.

I wholly reject your argument that if the other side cheats then you have to sink to their level. You just don't. We have brilliantly outplayed Cheatski a couple of times in recent years without ever resorting to their sly tactics or gamesmanship so we have proved that it is not necessary to sink to their level in order to win.

Clearly for many fans winning trophies has become the be-all and end-all but for me it will always come a poor second to playing the game the way it should be played. I repeat I want to enjoy watching football, not cheatball. I have absolutely no problem with playing the game physically hard and with passion, in fact I relish it - so long us it does not extend to deliberately trying to put others out of the game through reckless Roy Keane-type leg-breakers.

But sneakiness is something I have always abhorred and always will. It is something I will never ever be able to bring myself to approve of, no matter the price we have to pay.

As Danny once said, the game is about glory. I take pride in the fact we emblazon these words around are stadium. Long may we continue to aspire to them.

How sneaky is Vertonghen in your mind then?

Is he on the level of Costa or Suarez? Or just at the level of an average Chelsea player? Or at the level of one of the more tolerable Chelsea players?

Is he one you would want us to get rid of because he's so sneaky?

I really don't think Vertonghen is anywhere near as bad as your post makes it seem you think he is. If we look at this season do you have a handful of his worst transgressions you feel are beyond what is acceptable?

 

[glasgowspur]

There is a line between cheating and being sneaky, it is a contact sport after all.
It's brilliant to watch our free flowing football, but in some games you need to roll up your sleeves and play a different game.

I don't care if it was harry, Toby or Hugo if they pulled any Suarez biting, vardy taking a head but or terrys racism I would demand them sold.

Dele was very close to it for me with that tackle against Ghent.
What the team you support does reflects on you.

 

[Spur of the moment]

How sneaky is Vertonghen in your mind then?

Is he on the level of Costa or Suarez? Or just at the level of an average Chelsea player? Or at the level of one of the more tolerable Chelsea players?

Is he one you would want us to get rid of because he's so sneaky?

I really don't think Vertonghen is anywhere near as bad as your post makes it seem you think he is. If we look at this season do you have a handful of his worst transgressions you feel are beyond what is acceptable?

Fortunately Vertonghen is nowhere near the level of either of those out-and-out clams (although Costa seems to be less of a clam recently) but he definitely registers on the Richter scale.

To be fair though he has been in such excellent form this season we've seen a lot less nonsense from him. Which only goes to underline my argument that you don't need to cheat if you are good enough. But sneakily grabbing hold of players out of view of the ref and feigning /exaggerating injury like he has been poleaxed have been two of his less becoming traits in the past.

As to whether I want rid, like I said I have to be pragmatic. I doubt there is a club anywhere in the world that doesn't have at least one or two sneaky bastards; they're not all going to be Harry Kanes. But there's a difference between feeling obliged to live with a pervasive but irreduceable level of sneakiness / cheating on the one hand and wanting to encourage it on the other, which is what you have been advocating for Eric Dier.

 

[AjaxDeSuperYids]

Interesting video on jake Livermore on skysports.com who is back in the England squad, presumably as back up to Eric Dier in DM.

http://www.skysports.com/football/n...turing-his-england-call-up-and-west-brom-role

Could be a good idea to bring him home, as I'm still not comfortable with putting Dier in DM when Wanyama is injured or we play weaker opposition and he gets a rest.

Because in both circumstances it means moving Dier into his place and whilst I'm happy with Wimmer coming into the back 3, it would mean Dier would never get a rest and would play every single game of the season.

Unless from time to time we drop Dier to the bench and play Wimmer in his place, which isn't a bad idea.

 

[milo]

Interesting video on jake Livermore on skysports.com who is back in the England squad, presumably as back up to Eric Dier in DM.

http://www.skysports.com/football/n...turing-his-england-call-up-and-west-brom-role

Could be a good idea to bring him home, as I'm still not comfortable with putting Dier in DM when Wanyama is injured or we play weaker opposition and he gets a rest.

Because in both circumstances it means moving Dier into his place and whilst I'm happy with Wimmer coming into the back 3, it would mean Dier would never get a rest and would play every single game of the season.

Unless from time to time we drop Dier to the bench and play Wimmer in his place, which isn't a bad idea.

I think that would be a backward step.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I think that would be a backward step.

I agree it would t be the right signing for us

However I will add Livermore is a decent premier league player who works hard and covers ground. He isn't a high end player but is better than possibly a lot of Spurs fans thought

 

[milo]

I agree it would t be the right signing for us

However I will add Livermore is a decent premier league player who works hard and covers ground. He isn't a high end player but is better than possibly a lot of Spurs fans thought

I agree. I like Livermore but he isn't good enough for us and I don't think that you improve our squad by signing a worse midfielder than Dier, so that Dier can concentrate on being a central defender.

 

[AjaxDeSuperYids]

Well we should have signed Morgan Schneiderlin then or we should accept from time to time next season that Dier is benched and Wimmer starts in his place.

 

[milo]

Well we should have signed Morgan Schneiderlin then or we should accept from time to time next season that Dier is benched and Wimmer starts in his place.

Wimmer and Dier play on opposite sides of defence and Poch seems pretty rigid on only playing defenders on their favoured side, so they are not competing for the same place.

If we lost Wanyama for a few games, I think that Poch would just switch back to 4-2-3-1 and move Dier into midfield. I think that Poch is a manager who puts out his best 11 players and then finds a formation to fit. I think that it was this and trying to accommodate Wanyama and Dier in the same side that saw us switch to 3-4-2-1.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Well we should have signed Morgan Schneiderlin then or we should accept from time to time next season that Dier is benched and Wimmer starts in his place.

Scheniderlain was almost invisible the other week when we played them

I used to rate him but his time at united has stagnated him and I can't see how being a reserve for us would help him

We need another young hungry player to come in for that role or as suggested let Poch flex the team to suit the players who are fit

 

[DubaiSpur]

Scheniderlain was almost invisible the other week when we played them

I used to rate him but his time at united has stagnated him and I can't see how being a reserve for us would help him

We need another young hungry player to come in for that role or as suggested let Poch flex the team to suit the players who are fit

To be fair, Wanyama was pretty up and down at Soton last year - their fans were laying into him, suggesting that he'd gotten lazy and that he only tried in the big games (so he could put himself in the shop window). He comes to us, many (although by no means all) Southampton fans are glad to see the back of him, and then he immediately goes from being an on-and-off red card magnet with limited passing ability to being the second-best enforcer in the league behind Kante, a brutal physical specimen who allies excellent close control with magnificently precise, controlled aggression.

I think in Schneiderlin's case it's more to do with us just being very good on the day, because GOT seems to rate him really highly overall. I think, like Wanyama, he needed the move away from United to flourish - he's doing that at Everton, and good luck to him.

 

[AjaxDeSuperYids]

To be fair, Wanyama was pretty up and down at Soton last year - their fans were laying into him, suggesting that he'd gotten lazy and that he only tried in the big games (so he could put himself in the shop window). He comes to us, many (although by no means all) Southampton fans are glad to see the back of him, and then he immediately goes from being an on-and-off red card magnet with limited passing ability to being the second-best enforcer in the league behind Kante, a brutal physical specimen who allies excellent close control with magnificently precise, controlled aggression.

I think in Schneiderlin's case it's more to do with us just being very good on the day, because GOT seems to rate him really highly overall. I think, like Wanyama, he needed the move away from United to flourish - he's doing that at Everton, and good luck to him.

Yeah and the same with mane, looked okayish to me at soton and the transformation to now is startling.

I actually thought Schneiderlin did well against us and produced a couple of excellent defensive moments.