***OMT - Spurs vs Liverpool***

[Robspur12]

In my opinion, when teams of equal or more ability than us want to press us high, we struggle because we refuse to adapt our game plan and we don't have good enough technical players to handle it; namely, Dier, Lloris and Wanyama -- all pretty poor in possession when under constant pressure/given few passing options by opposition aggressive pressing.

Opposition will be more aggressive away from home, more so when they are equal/better teams.

The players I mentioned are mostly good for us and an asset. The way we play is perfect for most of our games, as we are better than most opposition we face. For away games against the best sides, Poch need to adapt the tactics and be more pragmatic. We'll still lose our share of these tough away games, but it's not good enough to do what we did today, namely suicidal football. We got lucky against City, we didn't get that today, but the overall game was similar.

I love Poch, but this performance is on him. He is asking players like Lloris, Dier, Wanyama and Davies to handle an aggressive high press with the aplomb of Guardiola's Barca. That's not going to happen and I don't blame those players, I blame the way they were asked to play today.

4 words from Poch would have seen an improvement -- sit deep, go direct.

I have just watched "highlights." Felt very sorry for our defence as Poch's tactics left them wide open. Mistakes were pounced upon and we should not judge Ben Davies or Eric Dier on this match. Agree that we should have sat deeper and not allowed such big spaces between the defence and midfield. Strange from Poch to get it so wrong.

 

[the dza]

I have just watched "highlights." Felt very sorry for our defence as Poch's tactics left them wide open. Mistakes were pounced upon and we should not judge Ben Davies or Eric Dier on this match. Agree that we should have sat deeper and not allowed such big spaces between the defence and midfield. Strange from Poch to get it so wrong.

I haven't watched any highlights yet, but when I was watching the game, especially first half, I thought that Wanyama was very often caught ahead of the ball when Liverpool were in possession -- I guess because we were trying to somehow press them, but all we did was create space for them to play their game. One or two passes and you have their quick attackers running at our defence.

Definitely a bad day at the office for Poch -- I think even with Vertonghen and Rose in the side in place of Dier and Davies, today would have been a struggle with how we approached it.

 

[Robspur12]

I haven't watched any highlights yet, but when I was watching the game, especially first half, I thought that Wanyama was very often caught ahead of the ball when Liverpool were in possession -- I guess because we were trying to somehow press them, but all we did was create space for them to play their game. One or two passes and you have their quick attackers running at our defence.

Definitely a bad day at the office for Poch -- I think even with Vertonghen and Rose in the side in place of Dier and Davies, today would have been a struggle with how we approached it.

Absolutely agreed. Cannot understand why Poch got the organization so wrong, would love to know his thinking today.

 

[Yermiyahu]

Conclusion - Poch is still out thought by the top coaches. Cue our CL results.

By and large I would say that this is true. He's doing a good job but he is learning on the job. Remember, he has never won anything as a manager. He us undoubtedly talented and committed to our club. He will be fine long term I expect and at least the ride is interesting.

 

[the dza]

By and large I would say that this is true. He's doing a good job but he is learning on the job. Remember, he has never won anything as a manager. He us undoubtedly talented and committed to our club. He will be fine long term I expect and at least the ride is interesting.

I think Poch has shown signs of growing as a manager, for example his switches to a back 3 and the really excellent performances that resulted. Also, our home form is much better than last season and imo, all top teams are built on a foundation of being near invincible at home. I think it's something we have worked on, being more creative v defensive teams (see the WBA game).

Hopefully, he will learn the lessons from these recent away games v City and Liverpool and develop even more flexibility in his tactical approach to games.

 

[Abbeyspur]

At the end of last season it was clear that we had an outstanding First X1 players but as soon as anyone was injured or suspended the quality quickly declined. So Poch stayed with the same 11 players and played them for almost the whole 90 minutes over the last 5-6 games such that eventually they were worn out or suspended and the reserves out of practice.

In the summer we thought this was being remedied with the additions of Wanyama, Janssen, Nkoudou and Sissoko but no we also sold/loaned Mason, Chadli, Bentaleb, Njie & Pritchard. The net result is, while Wanyama (today excluded) is now in our best 11, are the others really better than the players loaned or sold so we are still short of adequate back up. How often this season have we looked at the bench to improve the performance and, Harry Winks excepted, have seen no-one who will improve the team.

I can see we are getting in the same position as last year. In my opinion our best X1 is Lloris, Walker, Toby, Jan, Rose, Wanyama, Dembele, Eriksen, Alli, Lamela and Kane with Dier, Son, Winks and possibly Trippier as good back up. I don't think we have ever been able to field this best X1 so far this season due to injury and while we can cope with 1 or maybe even 2 omissions from the best X1 we cannot cope with 3 as we did today.

I suggest we have the thinnest squad in the Premiership and just need more bodies that might have an impact from the bench, e.g. a third striker such as the Fulham/Celtic Dembele, another creative midfielder, good cover for Danny Rose. Can't help thinking that had Bentaleb been on the bench today he would have replaced Davies at half-time for instance.

This is probably knee-jerk reaction but I fear for the rest of the season. It has been clear from our recent FA Cup performances that we need a core of 6-7 of the best X! to progress in the FA Cup and Europa League and probably near full-strength when we place the top sides. So we will again risk wearing out our strongest players by the time we play the tough fixtures in May.

I just hope I am wrong.

 

[mudshark]

Absolutely agreed. Cannot understand why Poch got the organization so wrong, would love to know his thinking today.

Ditto. It was fairly widely acknowledged that we were quite fortunate to escape with a point from City away. He's just repeated the same mistakes as in that game, when we had a further weakened defensive set-up even less able to cope. I can't see further at the moment than he asked for it today and he got it. I suppose we can only hope here endeth the lesson.

 

[Glenda's Legs]

I don't think Poch is out thought, I actually think its a mistake that Pep/Wenger/Klopp all make.

- The belief that playing your style outweighs playing to another teams obvious stregths/weaknesses.

My hope in Poch is I have seen him adapt, but its usually when he believes the opponent is significantly better than us. I think he felt we were Pools equals or betters and playing our way was the right answer.

All part of learning, no need for us to overeact, it's the middle of February, only our 3rd league defeat, none against sides that we should not expect tough games against, still good place in table, points, GD, etc.

I think this was the crux today. Poch has his philosophy and his way of playing and that isn't going to change significantly based on the opposition. Yes, the formation has been tweaked now and again but the tactics are largely the same. He is not going to send out a team to sit deep, absorb pressure and play balls over the top. Hopefully it will be a part of his learning curve that there are times when you have to do what is necessary, even if it is contrary to the preferred philosophy. I hope so, as we have to be able to adapt far better than we did today.
And the only possible reason for not doing so is that Poch firmly believed our style of play would be superior enough to see us through. That's fine, if a bit naive. Except when it was so, so clearly going so very,very wrong, why didn't he do anything to change it sooner?
I had to leave the house straight after the final whistle to meet friends who have no interest whatsoever in footbal. So I was forced, thankfully, to put it out of my mind for a few hours. Now sitting back indoors I am a bit more sanguine about it all. Hugely disappointed of course. More than a little perplexed as to why Poch couldn't see what was so obvious to almost everyone else. But the anger has subsided. We're still second (although no doubt third after tomorrow). Still in two cups which will hopefully be given more focus now that the title is almost definitely beyond reach. Key players to return to the team. Winks showing that he is a real gem in the making. We know we are better than today.
There are still plenty of positives about our season. We just have to find a way to build on those, learn from today (Poch in particular) and continue to look up the table and not behind us.
Days like today just make it that bit harder.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Only saw the fist 25 mins after which the family and i went out for the evening. ABSOLUTELY HORRIFIC performance at that point; sounds like it didn't get much better; the naivety shown by Poch was truly shocking.
It's no disgrace to lose to Pool (admit it; how many of us have seen us win there in over 50 years or so); it's a disgrace to get well and truly battered AND supply THEM with the vaseline FFS.

Momentum is everything in football and if we don't get top 4 it will be this weekend i'll look back on; when we HAD A WHOLE FUKKING WEEK to prepare for them.

Sort it out Poch!

[/Rant]

 

[glorygloryeze]

I think this was the crux today. Poch has his philosophy and his way of playing and that isn't going to change significantly based on the opposition. Yes, the formation has been tweaked now and again but the tactics are largely the same. He is not going to send out a team to sit deep, absorb pressure and play balls over the top. Hopefully it will be a part of his learning curve that there are times when you have to do what is necessary, even if it is contrary to the preferred philosophy. I hope so, as we have to be able to adapt far better than we did today.
And the only possible reason for not doing so is that Poch firmly believed our style of play would be superior enough to see us through. That's fine, if a bit naive. Except when it was so, so clearly going so very,very wrong, why didn't he do anything to change it sooner?
I had to leave the house straight after the final whistle to meet friends who have no interest whatsoever in footbal. So I was forced, thankfully, to put it out of my mind for a few hours. Now sitting back indoors I am a bit more sanguine about it all. Hugely disappointed of course. More than a little perplexed as to why Poch couldn't see what was so obvious to almost everyone else. But the anger has subsided. We're still second (although no doubt third after tomorrow). Still in two cups which will hopefully be given more focus now that the title is almost definitely beyond reach. Key players to return to the team. Winks showing that he is a real gem in the making. We know we are better than today.
There are still plenty of positives about our season. We just have to find a way to build on those, learn from today (Poch in particular) and continue to look up the table and not behind us.
Days like today just make it that bit harder.

This is the funny thing; Poch HAS been shown he will do it; witness games vs Arsenal away almost every time. I cannot understand why he cannot even for part of the match, say at the start, do this away to Liverpool. To get to the next level a good coach HAS to tweak his style depending on the opposition - especially away from home vs a top 6 rival. It what distinguishes the Wengers from the Mourinhos in those pressure-cooker games...

 

[glorygloryeze]

Great work by the mods on the OP's avatar though

 

[Cochise]

This whole brick about Mané going to them only after we passed due to wage demands kind of shows where we are. We can't afford to spend the money to get ready made upgrades yet in either wages or price tags. I guess it's gutting, because we have good players that just need the right reinforcements to push on.

I honestly didn't expect us to get anything today, but the loss still hurts. This is gonna kick start their form for the rest of the season whilst we are likely going to stumble onwards and doggedly hold on to the top 4 until the last 3 weeks.

 

[the dza]

This whole brick about Mané going to them only after we passed due to wage demands kind of shows where we are. We can't afford to spend the money to get ready made upgrades yet in either wages or price tags. I guess it's gutting, because we have good players that just need the right reinforcements to push on.

I honestly didn't expect us to get anything today, but the loss still hurts. This is gonna kick start their form for the rest of the season whilst we are likely going to stumble onwards and doggedly hold on to the top 4 until the last 3 weeks.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. Today, we re-enforced the idea of how not to play against Liverpool, they will continue to struggle against sides that sit deep and counter-attack. Their whole game is winning possession high up the pitch, once you take that away from them and close off the space in behind by sitting deep, then they are left with 70% of the ball and Milner and Clyne not having a clue what to do with all the space in wide areas but none in behind.

 

[jabbathehut]

No goals from open play in our last 3 games and 2 of those games were teams at the bottom.This is worrying more than anything else.We could easily be the 6th team in that bunch and it could be sooner rather than later.I don't see any point bringing on Janssen with 10 minutes to go.There is nothing about him that says impact.I think we screwed up replacing Chadli and N'jie with Nkoudo and Sissoko but he team is set and we have to move forward.

 

[Hemant]

I haven't watched any highlights yet, but when I was watching the game, especially first half, I thought that Wanyama was very often caught ahead of the ball when Liverpool were in possession -- I guess because we were trying to somehow press them, but all we did was create space for them to play their game. One or two passes and you have their quick attackers running at our defence.

Definitely a bad day at the office for Poch -- I think even with Vertonghen and Rose in the side in place of Dier and Davies, today would have been a struggle with how we approached it.

I noticed Wanyama was lagging too. But I put that down to him losing confidence during the game. Poch seemed to be unhappy with the players performance.
It was interesting to see how hard their players worked back, Lallana was behind Milner at times. Winajldum and Henderson ran back at pace right to the end. Dembele tried to do the same for us but Wanyama did not.
He has played well in many games for us this season but I thought he was hiding today. Technically he is limited but both our beasts struggle to pass forward creatively or quickly. Hence, I was surprised to see Winks so late.

 

[thfcsteff]

And your evidence for that is the City game is it?

I hope he does though.

No mate, my evidence is that we never slide and slump for weeks on end, and this manager has delivered a higher league position than his previous each season. He learns fast and, critically, isn't afraid to learn.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[thfcsteff]

I get the feeling there is something not quite right in the squad. We have now failed to score in open play in our last three games. We have largely stopped creating chances. Kane is getting little service - and doesn't look like creating something out of nothing. Can't put my finger on it just yet but it may be something to do with the mini break in Barca. We havent looked the same since.

Allow me to help you.

No Rose, no Vertonghen, no Lamela.
Poor return from Sissoko and Janssen.
Nkoudo injured, not an option.
Probably only 4 games this season where the manager has had his first eleven available.

Interesting to read that Mane would've come to us as Poch wanted him, but someone would not sanction his wages. I wonder if that was the final straw for Mitchell? Mane would fit well into our side and system.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[SteveAWOL]

That's....not encouraging.

Just the win against City in all our away visits across three years.

Conclusion - Poch is still out thought by the top coaches. Cue our CL results.

Fwiw...

16/17 - 15/16 - 14/15 (Total away)
Liverpool: W2 D2 L0 - W2 D2 L1 - W1 D1 L3 (W5 D5 L4)
Chelsea: W1 D1 L2 - W1 D3 L1 - W1 D3 L1 (W3 D7 L4)
ManU: W0 D1 L1 - W2 D1 L2 - W2 D1 L2 (W4 D3 L5)
Emirates Marketing Project: W1 D0 L2 - W1 D1 L3 - W1 D2 L2 (W3 D3 L7)
Arsenal: W0 D1 L3 - W0 D3 L2 - W1 D2 L2 (W1 D6 L7)
Spurs: W0 D2 L3 - W1 D3 L1 - W0 D1 L4 (W1 D6 L8)

16/17 - 15/16 - 14/15 (Total home)
ManU: W1 D2 L1 - W3 D2 L0 - W3 D2 L0 (W7 D6 L1)
Chelsea: W3 D0 L1 - W1 D2 L2 - W3 D2 L0 (W7 D4 L3)
Spurs: W2 D1 L0 - W2 D3 L0 - W2 D1 L2 (W6 D5 L2)
Liverpool: W2 D2 L0 - W1 D3 L1 - W2 D1 L2 (W5 D6 L3)
Emirates Marketing Project: W1 D1 L1 - W1 D1 L3 - W3 D1 L1 (W5 D3 L5)
Arsenal: W1 D1 L1 - W2 D2 L1 - W1 D3 L1 (W4 D6 L3)

 

[afsoc4life]

Not going to blame Pochettino for this. Dier and Davies were poor. Very poor. Wimmer needs to come in. This is not the first time that Dier has messed up. We have no choice with Davies. The players refused to show their quality. Simple things were not done by the team.

 

[Spur of the moment]

I think this was the crux today. Poch has his philosophy and his way of playing and that isn't going to change significantly based on the opposition. Yes, the formation has been tweaked now and again but the tactics are largely the same. He is not going to send out a team to sit deep, absorb pressure and play balls over the top. Hopefully it will be a part of his learning curve that there are times when you have to do what is necessary, even if it is contrary to the preferred philosophy. I hope so, as we have to be able to adapt far better than we did today.
And the only possible reason for not doing so is that Poch firmly believed our style of play would be superior enough to see us through. That's fine, if a bit naive. Except when it was so, so clearly going so very,very wrong, why didn't he do anything to change it sooner?
I had to leave the house straight after the final whistle to meet friends who have no interest whatsoever in footbal. So I was forced, thankfully, to put it out of my mind for a few hours. Now sitting back indoors I am a bit more sanguine about it all. Hugely disappointed of course. More than a little perplexed as to why Poch couldn't see what was so obvious to almost everyone else. But the anger has subsided. We're still second (although no doubt third after tomorrow). Still in two cups which will hopefully be given more focus now that the title is almost definitely beyond reach. Key players to return to the team. Winks showing that he is a real gem in the making. We know we are better than today.
There are still plenty of positives about our season. We just have to find a way to build on those, learn from today (Poch in particular) and continue to look up the table and not behind us.
Days like today just make it that bit harder.

Excellent post.

But I'm not so sure it's solely down to Poch that we never adapt our attacking approach away to the top teams. I sense it's also Levy's influence in the background.

If you remember the first thing he did when Enic took over was to sack the negative George Graham. Then there was the fall-out with Santini over his decision to park the bus in the notorious 0-0 at Stamford Bridge that led directly to the Frenchman's resignation.

We have emblazened all around our stadium phrases like To Dare is to Do and The Game is about Glory.

So I suspect Levy might also have something to do with it.