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***OMT - Tottenham Hotspur v Borussia Dortmund - first leg***

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Ok, i see the context better with that.

However, to be fair to @Robspur12 "our strongest possible line up" could have meant starting with Dembele (who was in the 18) in place of one of Carrol or Mason instead of having him come on as a sub. It could also have meant starting Lamela (who was in the 18) in place of Chadli instead of bringing him on as a sub. Perhaps if Kane had been brought on when it was 2-0 instead of when we were already 3-0 down that would have been stomached a bit more easily as well.

Just one or two of those in the 18 starting ahead of others could easily have been seen as "strongest possible."
However, starting Carrol AND Mason in the CM positions AND having Onomah start and with no Dembele alongside any of them gave the impression of going totally the opposite way..

I get that but we also do not know what Dembele's current fitness levels are. If he had started Dembele and he had limped off after 20 minutes then people would have been complaining about him being risked in a competition that we were never going to win and throwing away our title challenge.
 
I get that but we also do not know what Dembele's current fitness levels are. If he had started Dembele and he had limped off after 20 minutes then people would have been complaining about him being risked in a competition that we were never going to win and throwing away our title challenge.

Yeah, perhaps. Though we've probably already thrown away our title challenge and it's probably really about consolidating a top 3 finish, i take your overall point.
 
Yeah, perhaps. Though we've probably already thrown away our title challenge and it's probably really about consolidating a top 3 finish, i take your overall point.

We are closer to winning the PL than we are the EL, even before last night's game.
 
From The Grauniad:

Tottenham supporters’ trust critical of authorities over Dortmund crush

• Seventeen Spurs fans received treatment following use of pepper spray • Dortmund Police claim ‘confrontations’ led to forced closure of stadium gates


Friday 11 March 2016 23.08 GMT

The co-chairman of the Tottenham Hotspur Supporters’ Trust has described a crush that developed outside Borussia Dortmund’s ground as one of the worst experiences he has had since the 1970s.

Seventeen Spurs fans were treated for injuries caused by police pepper spray while another fan was reportedly carried away on a stretcher prior to the Europa League tie on Thursday.

Martin Cloake, of THST, described a large group of Tottenham supporters being led to the wrong entrance of the Westfalenstadion by police. A crush developed as they were directed towards the correct entrance while more fans attempted to make their way into the ground, with the situation exacerbated when the gate was closed.

Cloake said: “I’ve been going to football since the late 70s and it’s one of the worst experiences I’ve had to get into a ground.

“I was very surprised because you expect it to be well organised. It’s one of the largest stadiums in Europe.

“There was a complete breakdown of communication between the stewards inside the ground and the police, who were responsible for everything that happens outside. No one seemed willing or able to take responsibility for what was happening outside the gates. I think it was back to this old mentality of seeing the fans as a potential problem.

“It had been very good-natured during the day. There hadn’t been any hint of any aggression at all. It was just this 45 minutes before kick-off where they made serious mistakes outside the ground.”

Cloake and his co-chair, Katrina Law, met officials from both clubs after the game and are continuing their dialogue.

Dortmund Police said in a statement: “The majority of English fans arrived at the stadium shortly before the game, so there was pressure on the north entrance. This allowed about 80 supporters of Tottenham to come freely into the stadium.

“At first the entrance gates were temporarily closed by the security service. They then reopened the entrances to confrontations between visiting fans and security service employees. Due to the conflicts, the gates had to be closed again, which was only possible through the support of police forces.

“In order to prevent an uncontrolled entrance of the followers of Tottenham, pepper spray and baton was used by the police, in which 17 English supporters were slightly injured due to eye irritation.

“Furthermore a police officer and five employees of the security service were wounded in the course of these measures.”

Tottenham were unhappy with the situation, with a spokesman saying: “The misdirection of our fans by police along with the closing of turnstiles created a potentially dangerous situation. The use of pepper sprays was completely unnecessary and unacceptable.

“We arranged for our fans to meet officials of Borussia Dortmund immediately after the game. We have also spoken to officials at the club and they have taken on board our concerns.”

Law expressed relief that there appear to have been no serious injuries and hopes their concerns will be listened to. She cited the experience of Tottenham fans at an FA Cup semi- final at Hillsborough eight years prior to the disaster that cost the lives of 96 Liverpool supporters.

Law said: “It was a dangerous situation and it could have been a fatal situation. This is not about trying to get anything done in terms of last night, in terms of fines or anything. It’s about Dortmund learning what went wrong and making the necessary measures to make sure this doesn’t happen to any other set of fans in the future.

“We’ve been through this before. If people had listened to what happened to Spurs fans at Hillsborough, then Hillsborough wouldn’t have happened. So it’s key for us that Dortmund listen.”
 
I think a club of our stature should be able to compete on two fronts so I'm a little annoyed that we didn't field our strongest XI as, for me, games like this are the glamour ties which we are aiming to be in regularly and should be taken seriously.


Edit: re the crush, was terrible mismanagement from Dortmund - closed the gates whilst thousands were still trying to get in - ugly scenes as the stewards/police got physical with the supporters pushing through, who returned in kind - I was lucky and got through in time to catch kick off, others weren't so lucky and got in with most of the first half gone
 
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I did the day trip with Sport Options...up at 4.30am and back home 2.30am this morning!

There were a lot of unhappy Spurs fans on the way back although the amount of beer could have played a big part. I understand where they're coming from but personally for me I feel Poch has more than earned my trust with the teams he picks. It didn't work and yes like many others I thought we could play a stronger team in Dortmund with a weaker one at Villa, if need be and still pick up the desired results but it wasn't to be. Poch shouldn't be adverse of ever receiving criticism but we've come too far to just lose faith in him.

I was more shocked than anything with the team selection, it seemed the perfect opportunity to test a strong team against the type of side we're striving to face in the CL next season and would have been an exceptional chance to benchmark ourselves.

It wasn't to be, Poch has his reasons.

I thoroughly enjoyed my trip, if quite a long day and not the result we wanted.

We arrived at the ground pretty early so avoided the crushing etc...hope everyone involved are all ok.
 
I was talking purely in terms of the probability of either event occurring. Statistically, the league win is far more likely.

Without trying to turn this into a statsfest, how are we statistically far more likely to win he league than the EL this season?
 
I think a club of our stature should be able to compete on two fronts so I'm a little annoyed that we didn't field our strongest XI as, for me, games like this are the glamour ties which we are aiming to be in regularly and should be taken seriously.


Edit: re the crush, was terrible mismanagement from Dortmund - closed the gates whilst thousands were still trying to get in - ugly scenes as the stewards/police got physical with the supporters pushing through, who returned in kind - I was lucky and got through in time to catch kick off, others weren't so lucky and got in with most of the first half gone

I kind of agree with you in spirit; we should be able to handle two competitions at this stage.
However, i honestly think the last two league results have caused jitters in the Spurs hierarchy and perhaps Poch himself is worried about fatigue setting in (as is often the case at this stage with 'high-pressing' teams). You have to also bear in mind that Poch himself is not used to being in a hunt for a CL place as a manager (let alone a title race!) and i think a 'solidify and keep what we have' approach has set in with the various parts of Spurs Management.

I honestly think if we'd gone on to beat Arsenal (and let's face it we really should have) and spent even a few hours on top of the PL, we'd have played one or two more first-teamers yestrerday. It's the fear of us "Spurs.ing things up" that led to the team selection yesterday imo..and when you look at it like that, can you blame him/us?
 
Tottenham 1-0 Palace
Swansea 2-2 Tottenham
Bournemouth 1-5 Tottenham
Arsenal 1-1 Tottenham
Tottenham 0-0 Chelsea
Tottenham 1-2 Saudi Sportswashing Machine
Tottenham 0-1 Palace (FA Cup)
Tottenham 2-1 Swansea

Here's the table based on the 7 league rounds that came after European games:

17 Leicester
16
15
14 Watford
13 West Ham
12 Tottenham, Crystal Palace
11 Emirates Marketing Project, Arsenal, Man Utd Stoke, West Brom
10 Liverpool
9 Bournemouth
8 Everton
7 Chelsea, Southampton, Sunderland
6 Norwich, Saudi Sportswashing Machine
5 Swansea
4
5
2
1 Aston Villa
You just had to go and put things in perspective, didn't you? :eek:
 
From The Grauniad:

Tottenham supporters’ trust critical of authorities over Dortmund crush

• Seventeen Spurs fans received treatment following use of pepper spray • Dortmund Police claim ‘confrontations’ led to forced closure of stadium gates


Friday 11 March 2016 23.08 GMT

The co-chairman of the Tottenham Hotspur Supporters’ Trust has described a crush that developed outside Borussia Dortmund’s ground as one of the worst experiences he has had since the 1970s.

Seventeen Spurs fans were treated for injuries caused by police pepper spray while another fan was reportedly carried away on a stretcher prior to the Europa League tie on Thursday.

Martin Cloake, of THST, described a large group of Tottenham supporters being led to the wrong entrance of the Westfalenstadion by police. A crush developed as they were directed towards the correct entrance while more fans attempted to make their way into the ground, with the situation exacerbated when the gate was closed.

Cloake said: “I’ve been going to football since the late 70s and it’s one of the worst experiences I’ve had to get into a ground.

“I was very surprised because you expect it to be well organised. It’s one of the largest stadiums in Europe.

“There was a complete breakdown of communication between the stewards inside the ground and the police, who were responsible for everything that happens outside. No one seemed willing or able to take responsibility for what was happening outside the gates. I think it was back to this old mentality of seeing the fans as a potential problem.

“It had been very good-natured during the day. There hadn’t been any hint of any aggression at all. It was just this 45 minutes before kick-off where they made serious mistakes outside the ground.”

Cloake and his co-chair, Katrina Law, met officials from both clubs after the game and are continuing their dialogue.

Dortmund Police said in a statement: “The majority of English fans arrived at the stadium shortly before the game, so there was pressure on the north entrance. This allowed about 80 supporters of Tottenham to come freely into the stadium.

“At first the entrance gates were temporarily closed by the security service. They then reopened the entrances to confrontations between visiting fans and security service employees. Due to the conflicts, the gates had to be closed again, which was only possible through the support of police forces.

“In order to prevent an uncontrolled entrance of the followers of Tottenham, pepper spray and baton was used by the police, in which 17 English supporters were slightly injured due to eye irritation.

“Furthermore a police officer and five employees of the security service were wounded in the course of these measures.”

Tottenham were unhappy with the situation, with a spokesman saying: “The misdirection of our fans by police along with the closing of turnstiles created a potentially dangerous situation. The use of pepper sprays was completely unnecessary and unacceptable.

“We arranged for our fans to meet officials of Borussia Dortmund immediately after the game. We have also spoken to officials at the club and they have taken on board our concerns.”

Law expressed relief that there appear to have been no serious injuries and hopes their concerns will be listened to. She cited the experience of Tottenham fans at an FA Cup semi- final at Hillsborough eight years prior to the disaster that cost the lives of 96 Liverpool supporters.

Law said: “It was a dangerous situation and it could have been a fatal situation. This is not about trying to get anything done in terms of last night, in terms of fines or anything. It’s about Dortmund learning what went wrong and making the necessary measures to make sure this doesn’t happen to any other set of fans in the future.

“We’ve been through this before. If people had listened to what happened to Spurs fans at Hillsborough, then Hillsborough wouldn’t have happened. So it’s key for us that Dortmund listen.”


Disgraceful...never easy going there to watch a game. I was detained going to kaiserslautern back in 99 and that was at Frankfurt Airport arriving at 9am. They held me for a few hours!!!!!!
 
I kind of agree with you in spirit; we should be able to handle two competitions at this stage.
However, i honestly think the last two league results have caused jitters in the Spurs hierarchy and perhaps Poch himself is worried about fatigue setting in (as is often the case at this stage with 'high-pressing' teams). You have to also bear in mind that Poch himself is not used to being in a hunt for a CL place as a manager (let alone a title race!) and i think a 'solidify and keep what we have' approach has set in with the various parts of Spurs Management.

I honestly think if we'd gone on to beat Arsenal (and let's face it we really should have) and spent even a few hours on top of the PL, we'd have played one or two more first-teamers yestrerday. It's the fear of us "Spurs.ing things up" that led to the team selection yesterday imo..and when you look at it like that, can you blame him/us?

Mate.
We are dealing with injuries and fatigue. A suspension in there too.
Both Rose and Dier had knocks against the Filth.
He has NO FEAR of that term you've used...he is managing the club, that's all, managing the squad, and doing so with a lot more information than any of the sideline coaches here. There isn't a Spurs fan that isn't disappointed by Thursday night, but IMO, there should also not be a Spurs fan who doesn't believe he made the selection he made because it was the best decision he could make for the club given all the balls he had to juggle. My belief is that he has earned that level of trust.
 
From The Grauniad:

Tottenham supporters’ trust critical of authorities over Dortmund crush

• Seventeen Spurs fans received treatment following use of pepper spray • Dortmund Police claim ‘confrontations’ led to forced closure of stadium gates


Friday 11 March 2016 23.08 GMT

The co-chairman of the Tottenham Hotspur Supporters’ Trust has described a crush that developed outside Borussia Dortmund’s ground as one of the worst experiences he has had since the 1970s.

Seventeen Spurs fans were treated for injuries caused by police pepper spray while another fan was reportedly carried away on a stretcher prior to the Europa League tie on Thursday.

Martin Cloake, of THST, described a large group of Tottenham supporters being led to the wrong entrance of the Westfalenstadion by police. A crush developed as they were directed towards the correct entrance while more fans attempted to make their way into the ground, with the situation exacerbated when the gate was closed.

Cloake said: “I’ve been going to football since the late 70s and it’s one of the worst experiences I’ve had to get into a ground.

“I was very surprised because you expect it to be well organised. It’s one of the largest stadiums in Europe.

“There was a complete breakdown of communication between the stewards inside the ground and the police, who were responsible for everything that happens outside. No one seemed willing or able to take responsibility for what was happening outside the gates. I think it was back to this old mentality of seeing the fans as a potential problem.

“It had been very good-natured during the day. There hadn’t been any hint of any aggression at all. It was just this 45 minutes before kick-off where they made serious mistakes outside the ground.”

Cloake and his co-chair, Katrina Law, met officials from both clubs after the game and are continuing their dialogue.

Dortmund Police said in a statement: “The majority of English fans arrived at the stadium shortly before the game, so there was pressure on the north entrance. This allowed about 80 supporters of Tottenham to come freely into the stadium.

“At first the entrance gates were temporarily closed by the security service. They then reopened the entrances to confrontations between visiting fans and security service employees. Due to the conflicts, the gates had to be closed again, which was only possible through the support of police forces.

“In order to prevent an uncontrolled entrance of the followers of Tottenham, pepper spray and baton was used by the police, in which 17 English supporters were slightly injured due to eye irritation.

“Furthermore a police officer and five employees of the security service were wounded in the course of these measures.”

Tottenham were unhappy with the situation, with a spokesman saying: “The misdirection of our fans by police along with the closing of turnstiles created a potentially dangerous situation. The use of pepper sprays was completely unnecessary and unacceptable.

“We arranged for our fans to meet officials of Borussia Dortmund immediately after the game. We have also spoken to officials at the club and they have taken on board our concerns.”

Law expressed relief that there appear to have been no serious injuries and hopes their concerns will be listened to. She cited the experience of Tottenham fans at an FA Cup semi- final at Hillsborough eight years prior to the disaster that cost the lives of 96 Liverpool supporters.

Law said: “It was a dangerous situation and it could have been a fatal situation. This is not about trying to get anything done in terms of last night, in terms of fines or anything. It’s about Dortmund learning what went wrong and making the necessary measures to make sure this doesn’t happen to any other set of fans in the future.

“We’ve been through this before. If people had listened to what happened to Spurs fans at Hillsborough, then Hillsborough wouldn’t have happened. So it’s key for us that Dortmund listen.”

germans abusing jews...what's new?

too soon?
 
Tottenham 1-0 Palace
Swansea 2-2 Tottenham
Bournemouth 1-5 Tottenham
Arsenal 1-1 Tottenham
Tottenham 0-0 Chelsea
Tottenham 1-2 Saudi Sportswashing Machine
Tottenham 0-1 Palace (FA Cup)
Tottenham 2-1 Swansea

Here's the table based on the 7 league rounds that came after European games:

17 Leicester
16
15
14 Watford
13 West Ham
12 Tottenham, Crystal Palace
11 Emirates Marketing Project, Arsenal, Man Utd Stoke, West Brom
10 Liverpool
9 Bournemouth
8 Everton
7 Chelsea, Southampton, Sunderland
6 Norwich, Saudi Sportswashing Machine
5 Swansea
4
5
2
1 Aston Villa
So.

Post-Europa:
P7 W2 D3 L2 GF11 GA8 Pts9 PPG 1.28

All other PL results:
P22 W13 D4 L2 GF40 GA16 Pts46 PPG 2.09

Our average points haul following Europa games would yield around 48pts over a full season, leaving us somewhere around mid-table.

Our average points haul in all other games would yield at least 79pts which this season would likely be enough to win us the League title.

These stats tend to suggest we have been at a significant disadvantage compared with Leicester City and there's a good chance that once the Europa is out of the way our results should improve.

(Never seems to work like that though, does it! :rolleyes:)

Edit : just noticed the Palace game post-Europa was FA Cup but for this exercise can reasonably be equated to a League game anyway.
 
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..........

From the for some reason locked Europa League thread

..................


The pattern here seems to be that it's an ongoing thread on our progress (or otherwise), which is suspended once an OMT is created. Once the 2nd leg OMT is fading and/or draw for next round is made the EL thread re-opens.

Similar with FA Cup thread?


Reason .... to focus comment?.
 
That you can't get away with it against Dortmund was painfully obvious last night but anyone who travels away to a Europa League game expecting a full strength side either hasn't been paying attention or is a fool.




Wow, I am really surprised that you have that opinion as I have always thought you were a reasonable type of guy.



Mind you may have a point and I am a fool, having spent the best part of three days traveling to and from Germany ( and spent several hundred pounds doing it) expecting to see a strong Spurs side take on one the best teams in Europe ( who are chasing a treble) how foolish of me to expect us to put out a side who would be able to not beat them maybe but to at least give them a good game.



Instead Poch ( and before going any further I have said on here that I think he is doing a great job and have no problems with what he had done) however that team was never going to be able to compete at that level, the vast majority of the fans at the game, in the bars after and on the way home were gobsmacked that he choose such a weak side and they all said on hearing the side that we would be lucky to escape a heavy defeat ( and it really could have been a lot worse in reality).

As I have said before ( in other threads) I am not one to moan about ticket prices and no one holds a gun against my head and makes me goes to these games ( so its my OWN fault when I see these things happen). Now I have someone suggesting I am a fool because I was naïve enough to believe we would have named a stronger side, as I said maybe I am and what I should do is give up my ST and buy 50 inch TV and become a armchair supporter and be satisfied with that, then when guys who do get of their arses and make the effort to actually go and support their team moan about the weak sides in major games I can call them fools.



Poor form Milo from you, poor form.
 
This is a disgraceful team selection, performance and result ! This defeat is up there with the 0-8 humiliation to Cologne in the Intertoto Cup in 1996 which caused us to be banned from Europe. Well, if Pochettino doesn't wants to take the EL seriously he might well ask us to be banned from it now. Didn't expect us to win especially with our shyte away record in Europe and Dortmund's current form. But was expecting us to give our best against them. Find it hard to accept us throwing away the match by playing a very weak team full of youngsters. With us losing 0-3, not sure how we will approach the return leg at home now. It is clear Pochettino still has the small-club mentality as he has never won a Cup in his managerial career. If he had, maybe he would understand our Cup traditions more instead of just thinking about the league !

We did start the match promisingly and could have scored as early as the first minute. Eriksen should have scored from his chance but his shot was weak and direct to the goalie. Similiarly, Son had 2 good chances to score but was too slow to shoot allowing the defenders to tackle him. Apart from those chances, we didn't look like scoring a goal. In fact, we were very lucky not to lose by more goals. Dortmund had many goal scoring chances that they could have scored form. Pochettino should have brought on Kane or Lamela at half time to try to save the match. Afterall, Lamela is our top scorer in Europe with 6 goals. By the time Kane and Lamela came on, the match was already lost at 0-3.

It is no logic to start Caroll and Mason in midfield. They both are too error prone to play together in midfield. This made it easier for Dortmund to put pressure on our goal. With Alli suspended, we should not have rested too many regulars. Can understand why Pochettino rested Dier. But he should have atleast started with Dembele or Lamela in midfield. Lamela with this defensive duties could have helped our midfield to cope wih Dortmund. Unfortunately, both Chadli and Son didn't have good match.

Our defending were too weak for all their 3 goals. The Dortmund player had virtually a free header for their first goal. Similiarly, our defence should have done better for their second and third goals. We virtually had our best defence playing with Lloris, Alderweireld and Wimmer starting. So, we should have been more alert for all their goals. Maybe it would have helped us to have Dier and Lamela protecting the defence from midfield.

This is the first time we have let our opponents score more than 2 goals against us this season. Not sure how this well affect our defence mentally. If Pochettino has any intention of saving some pride in the return leg, he will need to take Dortmund more seriously by playing our best available players.
 
Mate.
We are dealing with injuries and fatigue. A suspension in there too.
Both Rose and Dier had knocks against the Filth.
He has NO FEAR of that term you've used...he is managing the club, that's all, managing the squad, and doing so with a lot more information than any of the sideline coaches here. There isn't a Spurs fan that isn't disappointed by Thursday night, but IMO, there should also not be a Spurs fan who doesn't believe he made the selection he made because it was the best decision he could make for the club given all the balls he had to juggle. My belief is that he has earned that level of trust.

I would echo this post.

A club of our stature should be able to compete on multiple fronts but it does mean you have to use your squad to do so. I feel Poch didn't help himself by failing to play benteleb and next season we will have a proper back up striker and in all honesty that player should be in our squad now.

How different things could have been with benteleb, lamela and berahino starting in Dortmund instead of onamah, eriksen and carroll. Throw in the pen we should have had too.

The result would have been very different and we'd still have done it utilising the squad.
 
Wow, I am really surprised that you have that opinion as I have always thought you were a reasonable type of guy.



Mind you may have a point and I am a fool, having spent the best part of three days traveling to and from Germany ( and spent several hundred pounds doing it) expecting to see a strong Spurs side take on one the best teams in Europe ( who are chasing a treble) how foolish of me to expect us to put out a side who would be able to not beat them maybe but to at least give them a good game.



Instead Poch ( and before going any further I have said on here that I think he is doing a great job and have no problems with what he had done) however that team was never going to be able to compete at that level, the vast majority of the fans at the game, in the bars after and on the way home were gobsmacked that he choose such a weak side and they all said on hearing the side that we would be lucky to escape a heavy defeat ( and it really could have been a lot worse in reality).

As I have said before ( in other threads) I am not one to moan about ticket prices and no one holds a gun against my head and makes me goes to these games ( so its my OWN fault when I see these things happen). Now I have someone suggesting I am a fool because I was naïve enough to believe we would have named a stronger side, as I said maybe I am and what I should do is give up my ST and buy 50 inch TV and become a armchair supporter and be satisfied with that, then when guys who do get of their arses and make the effort to actually go and support their team moan about the weak sides in major games I can call them fools.



Poor form Milo from you, poor form.

Have you read the subsequent posts where I explain what I meant? I would be amazed if anyone went to that game who had not considered the possibility that players would be rested.
 
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