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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

scaramanga said:
It's a marginal call either way. Fact is, those that were trying to put down AVB's points total would also have to put down Poch's as well.

Personally, I think both have done very well and would rather congratulate both than try and shoehorn criticism around a manager I don't understand.
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I read it is as people making a comparison between which team they enjoy watching most rather than putting down/bigging up either points total.

Whether you understand what AVB was trying t do or not, it's obvious we are more exciting/less boring to watch under Poch than we were under AVB. You can say that without taking away from anything AVB achieved.
 
Millsy_Yiddo said:
I read it is as people making a comparison between which team they enjoy watching most rather than putting down/bigging up either points total.

Whether you understand what AVB was trying t do or not, it's obvious we are more exciting/less boring to watch under Poch than we were under AVB. You can say that without taking away from anything AVB achieved.
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That's entirely subjective. I don't mind possession football at all - I've said a number of times that I prefer to watch Spurs with the ball than chase after the opposition with it (although I also very much enjoy our current style).

Don't forget that we've had some less than exciting matches under both managers - when Kane wasn't firing, for example. We've also had some very good football under both. Whilst you can say that in your opinion the football's better, you can't make a definitive statement as it's an entirely subjective view.
 
scaramanga said:
That's entirely subjective. I don't mind possession football at all - I've said a number of times that I prefer to watch Spurs with the ball than chase after the opposition with it (although I also very much enjoy our current style).

Don't forget that we've had some less than exciting matches under both managers - when Kane wasn't firing, for example. We've also had some very good football under both. Whilst you can say that in your opinion the football's better, you can't make a definitive statement as it's an entirely subjective view.
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Fair do's. I struggle to understand how if you take Poch's team playing at his best and AVB's team playing at their best anyone can feel they'd prefer to watch AVB but as you say, opinion, objective, fair enough.

I actually think the systems AVB and Poch both employee are similar. They both press high, work hard etc, but the key difference (and the reason why I much prefer to watch Poch's team) is that as soon as a Poch team wins the ball back they look forward. AVB's first thought was to retain possession of the ball then start an attack which often gave the opposition time to re-organise and we ended up passing the ball about from side to side in front of them.
 
Millsy_Yiddo said:
Fair do's. I struggle to understand how if you take Poch's team playing at his best and AVB's team playing at their best anyone can feel they'd prefer to watch AVB but as you say, opinion, objective, fair enough.

I actually think the systems AVB and Poch both employee are similar. They both press high, work hard etc, but the key difference (and the reason why I much prefer to watch Poch's team) is that as soon as a Poch team wins the ball back they look forward. AVB's first thought was to retain possession of the ball then start an attack which often gave the opposition time to re-organise and we ended up passing the ball about from side to side in front of them.
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don't really agree ... both prefer to posses the ball, both teams can play quite high up the pitch, that's about it

Poch to me is different (and it takes a while to see it, for it to work)

- with AVB it seemed possession itself was the goal (you can't be hurt if you have the ball), hence it was a "don't lose first" mentality (not surprising seeing his mentor in Jose) and often his football played out quite negative. AVB's high line also seemed naïve.
- Poch, possession is just part of the overall philosophy vs. end goal. Poch's teams will fall back if we don't regain possession within a time period.
- AVB also struggled with how he intended to offensive, there he seemed to depend on, require individual brilliance (usually a key passer in midfield -> quality wide/striker), hence the Bale, Moutinho, Hulk extra needs.
- Poch is based on quick transitions, mostly short passes to a fluid/flexible front line (players switch from left to right, deep runs, etc.), goals are often spread more

Honestly the only advantage I give AVB is how he talks and presents himself (before things go tits up)
 
Shropshire Yid said:
not good enough for some spurs fans but Valencia take a chance on Gary Neville! What a great opportunity for him!!
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It is a great opportunity and I think that it is a good idea for him to learn his trade away from the spotlight of the English media.

I would take argument with the not good enough for some Spurs fans comment though. It is hardly unreasonable to want the club to appoint someone with experience and a track record. Besides, there is no vacancy at Spurs at the moment and hopefully there will not be one for a long time to come.
 
Raziel said:
don't really agree ... both prefer to posses the ball, both teams can play quite high up the pitch, that's about it

Poch to me is different (and it takes a while to see it, for it to work)

- with AVB it seemed possession itself was the goal (you can't be hurt if you have the ball), hence it was a "don't lose first" mentality (not surprising seeing his mentor in Jose) and often his football played out quite negative. AVB's high line also seemed naïve.
- Poch, possession is just part of the overall philosophy vs. end goal. Poch's teams will fall back if we don't regain possession within a time period.
- AVB also struggled with how he intended to offensive, there he seemed to depend on, require individual brilliance (usually a key passer in midfield -> quality wide/striker), hence the Bale, Moutinho, Hulk extra needs.
- Poch is based on quick transitions, mostly short passes to a fluid/flexible front line (players switch from left to right, deep runs, etc.), goals are often spread more

Honestly the only advantage I give AVB is how he talks and presents himself (before things go tits up)
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I probably didn't put my point across clearly enough, but I think you actually do agree with me, you've just explained it better. See bold below.

- with AVB it seemed possession itself was the goal (you can't be hurt if you have the ball), hence it was a "don't lose first" mentality (not surprising seeing his mentor in Jose) and often his football played out quite negative. AVB's high line also seemed naïve. This is what I meant when I said AVB's first thought was to retain possession i.e 'don't lose first'

- Poch, possession is just part of the overall philosophy vs. end goal. Poch's teams will fall back if we don't regain possession within a time period. Possession vs end goal: Exactly, which is why Poch allows his teams to think 'forward first' as soon as they win the ball back as I said. AVB's teams also fell back if they don't retain possession within a time period, as do Klopps teams and pretty much all teams that press (assuming that's what you mean)

- AVB also struggled with how he intended to offensive, there he seemed to depend on, require individual brilliance (usually a key passer in midfield -> quality wide/striker), hence the Bale, Moutinho, Hulk extra needs. Again this is a symptom of the keep possession at all costs thing AVB has going on. The reason he struggled to break teams down is because his teams regain possession first then try and start attacks once the opposition are setup again. So he needed individual brilliance. Poch doesn't because his teams play forward at every viable opportunity and the opposition does not get time to be organised.

- Poch is based on quick transitions, mostly short passes to a fluid/flexible front line (players switch from left to right, deep runs, etc.), goals are often spread more Quick transitions= win ball back and quickly turn things into attack, playing it forward with short passes. Granted he is a lot more flexible than AVB though. The goals are spread more because of this but also because of the previous point that AVB allows opposition to get into shape before starting an attack. This means it tends to be the best (individually brilliant as you say) players that score the most, because they have the ability to do so against a well organised defence.

Still similar systems at a high level; Both like possession, press high, fit, athletic players, a liking for 4231, just different philosophies on how the game should be played within that system. I much pefer Poch's.
 
Let's see how things go in the second half of the season. With our pressing style i fear we (or at least certain very key players, such as Kane, Dier, Toby, Jan, perhaps Eriksen) could burn-out and crash post February.

I think AVB, whilst not being the most outright attacking/risky of our recent managers seemed to be able to set us up so we didn't have late season burnout.

If you think back to our form in the 2012/13 season, our form was crazy good after that crazy late loss to Everton: only losing 2 our of our remaining 22/23 game would easily have got us 4th in any other season. It was only the fact that Arsenal's form after we beat them was actually obscene/demented that stopped us getting that 4th spot.

Only when we go similarly close with Poch to getting 4th or actually achieving 4th can we start making pronouncements about how Poch is better than AVB. Of course if we want to talk about preffered style and who was more entertaining, by all means we can discuss, but as i said before we should hold back before we start sucking all our (and Poch's) d1cks just yet...
 
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glorygloryeze said:
Let's see how things go in the second half of the season. With our pressing style i fear we (or at least certain very key players, such as Kane, Dier, Toby, Jan, perhaps Eriksen) could burn-out and crash post February.

I think AVB, whilst not being the most outright attacking/risky of our recent managers seemed to be able to set us up so we didn't have late season burnout.

If you think back to our form in the 2012/13 season, our form was crazy good after that crazy late loss to Everton: only losing 2 our of our remaining 22/23 game would easily have got us 4th in any other season. It was only the fact that Arsenal's form after we beat them was actually obscene/demented that stopped us getting that 4th spot.

Only when we go similarly close with Poch to getting 4th or actually achieving 4th can we start making pronouncements about how Poch is better than AVB. Of course if we want to talk about preffered style and who was more entertaining, by all means we can discuss, but as i said before we should hold back before we start sucking all out (and Poch's) d1cks just yet...
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Thats a reasoned arguement. But i still think that AVB is poo poo head.
 
Yermiyahu said:
I so wanted him to succeed, The matinee idol looks, the sharp suits, the beard. The essence of manliness, all had me weak at the knees.

However, the turgid football did it for me I'm afraid. People can say what they like but I saw with my own eyes TURGID.
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Not strictly fair, especially not in his first season - that 'turgid' football (I think we ran out of that term in 2013/2014: good to see we've got unused stocks lying around now :p ) was hailed by a lot of us for the defensive solidity it provided, the never say die attitude it fostered (which personified itself in the wins against United and City, and the draw against United at home where Dempsey equalized in the last minute) and the brilliance it unleashed in Bale. We'd seen none of those things under Harry, so they were indeed very welcome developments at the time.

He was a sexy beast, there's no doubting it (still is, as a matter of fact), but he was also a good manager, and that's something often overlooked by our supporters when they criticise him for falling to the 6-0 thumpings and humiliations in the second season with new signings that, by and large, he didn't really want.
 
DubaiSpur said:
Not strictly fair, especially not in his first season - that 'turgid' football (I think we ran out of that term in 2013/2014: good to see we've got unused stocks lying around now :p ) was hailed by a lot of us for the defensive solidity it provided, the never say die attitude it fostered (which personified itself in the wins against United and City, and the draw against United at home where Dempsey equalized in the last minute) and the brilliance it unleashed in Bale. We'd seen none of those things under Harry, so they were indeed very welcome developments at the time.

He was a sexy beast, there's no doubting it (still is, as a matter of fact), but he was also a good manager, and that's something often overlooked by our supporters when they criticise him for falling to the 6-0 thumpings and humiliations in the second season with new signings that, by and large, he didn't really want.
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I guess the problem was /is for me at least that people tend to be remembered for the last things they did, rather than the best things they did. I liked him, up until the point when I didn't. nevertheless you make some very valid points . I still love the word turgid though.
 
Spur of the moment said:
Blimey! Was that response really appropriate BE? Or are you just tinkleed off with anyone who dares to disagree with you today?

I'm a big fan of Poch and never at any point took to AVB but am ready to concede that most of the points modric makes have a certain validity. I also consider it a sign of weakness when a poster resorts to insult and insinuation in their attempts win the argument.
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I have no problems with people disagreeing with me.

Modric THFC seems to complain that people are disagreeing with him in an unfair manner. All I'm pointing out is that if he worded his disagreements with Pochettino a bit differently it would probably lead to more reasonable responses to him.

If he's actually tired of having this conversation in the way it's currently being had he can change that himself. I thought that worth pointing out.
 
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