'Soldier beheaded' outside barracks in Woolwich

[DHSF]

Re: 'Soldier beheaded' oustide barracks in Woolwich

and christians kill muslims as well. its not just the other way around....you just dont hear about it nearly as much....

Usually in retaliation maybe? Its happened in Egypt yeah - but only in retaliation cos they have had enough of the lack of protection. Did you know that Morsi (the President) wanted to charge Christians in order to continue protecting them? Hows that for them being ****s.

In rsponse to your first and initial reply - I was just playing devils advocate and I guess playing along with others on here. In all honesty like I said not all Muslims are 'bad'. I still do not know the motive for this killing and not sure if there has been conclusive evidence to suggest what the motive was. All I have seen is the video where he continues to talk about people leaving muslims alone. Which is ironic because in Egypt its the Muslims who should leave us alone.

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: 'Soldier beheaded' oustide barracks in Woolwich

there's not really any argument to be made that they weren't Muslims after what has come about them in the days after the incident Im afraid, reading the Standard today for example it's quite clear these two guys have been radicalized at some point in the past decade or so - both converted to the religion in their mid to late teens and both attended mosques, extremist rallies and the like.

unless of course you want to don a tin foil hat :lol:

Come on Billy.

You've read what I've been posting in this thread?

I will repeat the apology I made for dismissing out of hand their connection with any form of Islam, etc, but what I will also do is absolutely repeat that these idiots are NOT Muslims just because they have been radicalized!
Radical 'Muslims' are no more Muslims than the Westboro Baptist Church are Christians! That is the point being made. Nothing to do with 'tin hats' and everything to do with trying to make sure this whole sorry fudging affair doesn't end up becoming a tool for people to wield. Plenty of Muslim organizations have come out and condemned this act, and quite rightfully so.

I trust you have also seen that there is suspicion they tried to enter Somalia? That the main guy came from a Catholic upbringing? That he was a drug-dealer and liked to posture the 'thug-life'? That before that he was very quiet? That his family moved to try and keep him away from gangs? There is much more to this, and to him.

Final comment for now. I know you were chief in the discussion of whether this was a 'terrorist' act. If you have the time and fortitude, go back a few pages and check out the link I placed to a quite excellent Guardian op ed on this very question. To call it 'terrorism' is churlish, unless we are now expanding the term even further than Bush and Blair did when they declared 'war on terrorism' (you cannot, as I always understood it, officially declare war on something which is not, at least, a sovereign state).

 

[Bullet]

Re: 'Soldier beheaded' oustide barracks in Woolwich

Bonsaiboy / DHSF

I was driving home at about 1pm today and Jeremy Vine was talking to a man on Radio 2 - you may be able to find it online

This guy was seriously into his religion, studied the Koran for something like 20 years, memorised it, became a preacher of hate and a radical... his teacher was also a radical hate preacher, well known.... he said he started having second thoughts, the 7/7 bombings sickened him, he travelled to Mecca and got a better understanding of the Koran and realised there was a much deeper context to the Koran and what he had learned before was just a superficial interpretation of it... and now he has gone the other way, preaching against hatred.

So when the Koran says you can kill non-believers of Islam, that is taken out of context and you can find many awful sentences in the Bible if you take them out of context too.

It's a shame some loons latch onto things like the Bible and Koran and use them for evil... twas ever thus and probably always will be... if those books didn't exist people would use films or modern books or skin colour or even something as shallow as football rivalry.

I'm not liking either of your posts/attitudes to be honest!

 

[billyiddo]

Re: 'Soldier beheaded' oustide barracks in Woolwich

if it can be interpreted both ways who is to say which is right?

 

[DHSF]

Re: 'Soldier beheaded' oustide barracks in Woolwich

Bonsaiboy / DHSF

I was driving home at about 1pm today and Jeremy Vine was talking to a man on Radio 2 - you may be able to find it online

This guy was seriously into his religion, studied the Koran for something like 20 years, memorised it, became a preacher of hate and a radical... his teacher was also a radical hate preacher, well known.... he said he started having second thoughts, the 7/7 bombings sickened him, he travelled to Mecca and got a better understanding of the Koran and realised there was a much deeper context to the Koran and what he had learned before was just a superficial interpretation of it.

So when the Koran says you can kill non-believers of Islam, that is taken out of context and you can find many awful sentences in the Bible if you take them out of context too.

I'm not liking either of your posts/attitudes to be honest!

You dont have to like it. But no where have I stated an opinion apart from 'I dont think all Muslims are bad' and 'I dont like Muslims all that much' which is based on experiences as opposed to believing propaganda which im sure racists do. So not sure where the attitude is. Or is it the attitude as in fact that Muslims are terrorising Christians in Egypt? Because thats a fact not an attitude.

If I am misguided about the divine killings etc then I apoogise but when you are from a country and go back to it where you are treated like brick because youre a Christian (in a Christian fudgein country) then im sure you will understand. Getting treated like an outcast cos of your religion is not a nice thing mate.

Anyways I digress from the threa reason which is about the Soldier.

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: 'Soldier beheaded' oustide barracks in Woolwich

Its funny how one murder can cause so much uproar... but these killings happen EVERYWHERE. Every week there is a church being bomed in Egypt by who? muslims. Everyday there is a killing of someone, some group or a whole fudgein church.

Im not a big fan of muslim people, not racist, just bad experiences from Egypt. Thats not to say ALL muslims are bad and fundamentalists and I have one or two Islamic friends (but theyre the new age not the fundamentalists). I dont neccessarily think its the religion that is the issue (as much as I dislike the Qu'ran) its the people that cant see through the outdated message the religion relays.

I am Christian was brought up as one but have distanced myself away from religion but believe there is a GHod etc. Anyways my point is is that Religion needs to change with the times. If we took everything the Bible or the Qu'ran says in a literal manner - we would all be killing people.

So Steff whilst you say that this man does not represent muslims in ANY way? I beg to differ. Granted this guy does not represent ALL muslims but he represented FAR FAR more than you seem to think.

I may be digressing as I still dont have a fudgein clue why this guy killed that man and it may not have been a religious racist attack but if it was because he read the Qu'ran and found the divine killing passage - then he is definitely representative of a lot more muslims than you think.

If we want to open up what is a perfectly correct discussion that these killings happen everywhere (you are 100% correct) then I think you would be in tears when you see just how many innocent people die in African nations and across the Middle East (to name two regions) at the hands of radical groups and government-sponsored attacks, whether covertly by supporting insurrective factions or via occupation, drones, etc.

I bolded a sentence mate, because I think it hits what the true question is. Why are radicals able to get their filthy claws into wayward people? Poverty, desperation, rejection, all of those are factors. The fact it's happening to British-born kids is absolutely chilling! I know that some people will read the previous sentence and get angry that I am not just instantly roaring against them. But the fact remains, whatever ANYONE thinks of what I said, it is a stone cold fact. This guy was radicalized, the 7/7s were radicalized, there are other kids growing up and suddenly being radicalized NOT because the core message of the faith/religion speaks to them, but because the END result of these radical's intentions involves attacking the west in some way, shape or form.

We need to figure out a solution to WHY this is happening IMHO.

BTW, with regards to the 'divine killing' passage, I don't know the Quran at all but I do know that every faith's 'good book' has similar rhetoric somewhere. The Old and New Testament are not always warm and fuzzy mate.

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: 'Soldier beheaded' oustide barracks in Woolwich

if it can be interpreted both ways who is to say which is right?

Is that a genuine question?

(we need to get back to football where we agree on pretty much everything )

 

[billyiddo]

Re: 'Soldier beheaded' oustide barracks in Woolwich

Is that a genuine question?

(we need to get back to football where we agree on pretty much everything )

yes it is a genuine question - and no worry, i enjoy these kinds of threads as it gives me a chance to learn stuff. discussing these kinds of things on here over the years has actually changed my perception of these issues for the better (believe it or not )

 

[DHSF]

Re: 'Soldier beheaded' oustide barracks in Woolwich

If we want to open up what is a perfectly correct discussion that these killings happen everywhere (you are 100% correct) then I think you would be in tears when you see just how many innocent people die in African nations and across the Middle East (to name two regions) at the hands of radical groups and government-sponsored attacks, whether covertly by supporting insurrective factions or via occupation, drones, etc.

I bolded a sentence mate, because I think it hits what the true question is. Why are radicals able to get their filthy claws into wayward people? Poverty, desperation, rejection, all of those are factors. The fact it's happening to British-born kids is absolutely chilling! I know that some people will read the previous sentence and get angry that I am not just instantly roaring against them. But the fact remains, whatever ANYONE thinks of what I said, it is a stone cold fact. This guy was radicalized, the 7/7s were radicalized, there are other kids growing up and suddenly being radicalized NOT because the core message of the faith/religion speaks to them, but because the END result of these radical's intentions involves attacking the west in some way, shape or form.

We need to figure out a solution to WHY this is happening IMHO.

BTW, with regards to the 'divine killing' passage, I don't know the Quran at all but I do know that every faith's 'good book' has similar rhetoric somewhere. The Old and New Testament are not always warm and fuzzy mate.

I totally agree with the last line (not that I dont agree with the rest because I do) and thats why I mentioned about religion needing to move forward with the times hence me distancing myself from religion (although I do believe in GHod).

In regards to the other bolded line - I also agree and have seen it - every week, like I say, a church is being bombed in Egypt. Its happening everywhere else im sure in the Middle East and Africa. Its just not given any media attention in England or anywhere for that matter.

 

[Hootnow]

Re: 'Soldier beheaded' oustide barracks in Woolwich

Usually in retaliation maybe? Its happened in Egypt yeah - but only in retaliation cos they have had enough of the lack of protection. Did you know that Morsi (the President) wanted to charge Christians in order to continue protecting them? Hows that for them being ****s.

I'm not going to say there isn't sectarian strife in Egypt, it can get very bad and I have a lot of sympathy for Copts. My wife and I try to do what we can for inter-religious dialogue whenever we go to see her family there. Its difficult, its slow but we do what we feel we can and should.

However DHSF, I follow Egyptian politics pretty closely and haven't read such a news story. Can you link me to a reputable source (in either English or Arabic, I can read both) of Morsi wanting to charge Christians in order to protect them?

You know what I think? As others have said, there's bad in religion. And there's good in religion. Each and every one (except perhaps Jainism or those Buddhist monks that are so against any killing of life that they sweep the floor ahead of them to ensure they kill nothing). And people from every single one of them use them to their own ends. Because people are tacos.

A lot of the hatred comes from complete ignorance though. And I'm not talking about ignorance of your own texts but ignorance of other people and their beliefs. In Egypt, I've heard some exceptional theories regarding both Christians and Muslims from the other side. Some of the most vitriolic anti-Islamic views I've heard have come from Egypt (Sunnis talking about Shiites). Same in Lebanon (except in Lebanon, the Shia and Sunni sometimes also have incredible theories about each other, despite living in the same country). I have some Reform and Orthodox Jews who live in this country who tell me that there are some pretty unsavoury views in that community as well regarding Muslims and Arabs. And the same in the Muslim community here as well. The same will exist in every single community.


I've found that helping people to talk and helping people to get to know each other helps overcome these views. In the same way that you're more likely to support full gay rights if you know gay individuals and count homosexuals amongst your friends/ family, if you converse with people of other religions, even if you still fundamentally disagree on matters of politics or religion, you find that you can come together on a lot more issues and at the very least be civil towards each other. In my experience anyway.

As a general rule, you educate, you reduce heavily religious extremism. If people are relatively educated, have a job, partner and kids, they're generally going to be too busy dealing with their brick to get involved in all this mess.

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: 'Soldier beheaded' oustide barracks in Woolwich

I totally agree with the last line (not that I dont agree with the rest because I do) and thats why I mentioned about religion needing to move forward with the times hence me distancing myself from religion (although I do believe in GHod).

In regards to the other bolded line - I also agree and have seen it - every week, like I say, a church is being bombed in Egypt. Its happening everywhere else im sure in the Middle East and Africa. Its just not given any media attention in England or anywhere for that matter.

No, I agree with you mate. It is happening everywhere with increasing frequency to many people. I think more than anything we are (hopefully) realizing how media jumps on some things and not on others.

As a tangent, i will never ever forget the shame I felt after reading Philip Gourevitch's excellent but harrowing book on Rwanda 'We Wish To Inform You That Tomorrow We Will Be Killed With Our Families' and 'King Leopold's Ghost' by Alan Hoschild, about the complete decimation and slaughter in the Congo instigated by king Leopold without ever leaving Belgium (to the cost of 10 million lives)...and it remains a shame of mine that it took U2 to make me aware of Sarajevo and the brutality happening in that region, in Kosovo, in Bosnia...these are increasingly unfriendly times for sure.

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: 'Soldier beheaded' oustide barracks in Woolwich

yes it is a genuine question - and no worry, i enjoy these kinds of threads as it gives me a chance to learn stuff. discussing these kinds of things on here over the years has actually changed my perception of these issues for the better (believe it or not )

...I believe it mate.

I think the answer to your question lies in balance. And as long as the person faced with making a choice in how they interpret these things has a reasonable quality of life in context of their own surroundings, then 99% of the time it will be the peaceful solution.

It's chilling to that radicalism appears to have become a business as much as anything else, whether it be via squeezing donations from the ignorant to support a lifestyle or in the perpetual amassing of arms and various other weapon technologies. I read a book about the 9/11 hijackers; it was genuinely not dissimilar to that film "Four Lions"...the night before, a couple of them went off to a titty bar FFS!

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: 'Soldier beheaded' oustide barracks in Woolwich

I'm not going to say there isn't sectarian strife in Egypt, it can get very bad and I have a lot of sympathy for Copts. My wife and I try to do what we can for inter-religious dialogue whenever we go to see her family there. Its difficult, its slow but we do what we feel we can and should.

However DHSF, I follow Egyptian politics pretty closely and haven't read such a news story. Can you link me to a reputable source (in either English or Arabic, I can read both) of Morsi wanting to charge Christians in order to protect them?

You know what I think? As others have said, there's bad in religion. And there's good in religion. Each and every one (except perhaps Jainism or those Buddhist monks that are so against any killing of life that they sweep the floor ahead of them to ensure they kill nothing). And people from every single one of them use them to their own ends. Because people are tacos.

A lot of the hatred comes from complete ignorance though. And I'm not talking about ignorance of your own texts but ignorance of other people and their beliefs. In Egypt, I've heard some exceptional theories regarding both Christians and Muslims from the other side. Some of the most vitriolic anti-Islamic views I've heard have come from Egypt (Sunnis talking about Shiites). Same in Lebanon (except in Lebanon, the Shia and Sunni sometimes also have incredible theories about each other, despite living in the same country). I have some Reform and Orthodox Jews who live in this country who tell me that there are some pretty unsavoury views in that community as well regarding Muslims and Arabs. And the same in the Muslim community here as well. The same will exist in every single community.


I've found that helping people to talk and helping people to get to know each other helps overcome these views. In the same way that you're more likely to support full gay rights if you know gay individuals and count homosexuals amongst your friends/ family, if you converse with people of other religions, even if you still fundamentally disagree on matters of politics or religion, you find that you can come together on a lot more issues and at the very least be civil towards each other. In my experience anyway.

As a general rule, you educate, you reduce heavily religious extremism. If people are relatively educated, have a job, partner and kids, they're generally going to be too busy dealing with their brick to get involved in all this mess.

=D>=D>=D>

The last two paragraphs in particular echo everything I believe to be true in these matters...

 

[Hootnow]

Re: 'Soldier beheaded' oustide barracks in Woolwich

DHSF, you've probably already seen this but in case not, thought you'd find it funny

Sorry guys, only for the Arabic speakers

 

[THFC]

Re: 'Soldier beheaded' oustide barracks in Woolwich

What issues?
What are you talking about now?
I thought you'd made your last two posts on the subject!
I'm all ears...

I did make my last post but such is the issue I am responding. Political correctness has supressed such discussions to the extent that questioning anything relating to 'non white english' ways of life which may be deemed detrimental to society are immediately pigeon holed as racism or something that might be mistaken as racism.

If I went and stood on a street corner saying that our immigration policy has led to widespread abuse if our social welfare system I would be shut down. I would probably be told that english people do it too - fair point, but of course there will be abuse by english people as the majority of people living here are english. Maybe without this level of 'unuseful' and 'benefit seeking' immigration there would be less need for others to feel like they need to grab what they can as much as they do.

 

[Bullet]

Re: 'Soldier beheaded' oustide barracks in Woolwich

You dont have to like it. But no where have I stated an opinion apart from 'I dont think all Muslims are bad' and 'I dont like Muslims all that much' which is based on experiences as opposed to believing propaganda which im sure racists do. So not sure where the attitude is.......... Getting treated like an outcast cos of your religion is not a nice thing mate.

Earlier you stated "Im not a big fan of muslim people... Thats not to say ALL muslims are bad and fundamentalists and I have one or two Islamic friends (but theyre the new age not the fundamentalists). I dont neccessarily think its the religion that is the issue (as much as I dislike the Qu'ran) its the people that cant see through the outdated message the religion relays"

It just seemed a bit crass to me, as though Muslims are either new age or fundamentalist and that the Koran is evil and Islam is outdated. I can see what you're trying to say I think, but I'm sure there are some very nice Muslims who are neither new age nor fundamentalist, and I'm sure you can read into the Koran exactly what you want - if you want to interpret passages as inciting war then people will read that and think it means "go and chop off someone's head" but there are other interpretations, so I'm told.

I'm not at all religious, I've never read any holy books, you know more about it than me and have been affected by this kind of thing more than me, your post just seemed a bit 'full-on'

 

[DHSF]

Re: 'Soldier beheaded' oustide barracks in Woolwich

I'm not going to say there isn't sectarian strife in Egypt, it can get very bad and I have a lot of sympathy for Copts. My wife and I try to do what we can for inter-religious dialogue whenever we go to see her family there. Its difficult, its slow but we do what we feel we can and should.

However DHSF, I follow Egyptian politics pretty closely and haven't read such a news story. Can you link me to a reputable source (in either English or Arabic, I can read both) of Morsi wanting to charge Christians in order to protect them?

You know what I think? As others have said, there's bad in religion. And there's good in religion. Each and every one (except perhaps Jainism or those Buddhist monks that are so against any killing of life that they sweep the floor ahead of them to ensure they kill nothing). And people from every single one of them use them to their own ends. Because people are tacos.

A lot of the hatred comes from complete ignorance though. And I'm not talking about ignorance of your own texts but ignorance of other people and their beliefs. In Egypt, I've heard some exceptional theories regarding both Christians and Muslims from the other side. Some of the most vitriolic anti-Islamic views I've heard have come from Egypt (Sunnis talking about Shiites). Same in Lebanon (except in Lebanon, the Shia and Sunni sometimes also have incredible theories about each other, despite living in the same country). I have some Reform and Orthodox Jews who live in this country who tell me that there are some pretty unsavoury views in that community as well regarding Muslims and Arabs. And the same in the Muslim community here as well. The same will exist in every single community.


I've found that helping people to talk and helping people to get to know each other helps overcome these views. In the same way that you're more likely to support full gay rights if you know gay individuals and count homosexuals amongst your friends/ family, if you converse with people of other religions, even if you still fundamentally disagree on matters of politics or religion, you find that you can come together on a lot more issues and at the very least be civil towards each other. In my experience anyway.

As a general rule, you educate, you reduce heavily religious extremism. If people are relatively educated, have a job, partner and kids, they're generally going to be too busy dealing with their brick to get involved in all this mess.

I knew you would pounce on me haha. I dont think there is an article but I was watching one of those Egyptian satellite TV shows a coupe of years back and they were having a debate about it. Ill see if I can find anything.

You said you follow it closely so you will have far greater knowledge than I ever will. I try to stay out of politics and never really been interested in it as it seems to cause far more trouble than its worth.

In terms of the inter religious strife, its funny because Egypt became more progressive in terms of becoming westernised, people became 'modern' as it were, the newer generation. Then the Mubarak incident threw everything up in the air and set it back a gazillion years. The old generation are more traditional in their religious views but the new generation whilst religion plays an important role they are more liberal than previous generations.

In terms of the bolded part - I wholeheartedly agree. The thing is there are countries where religion is the way of life - Egypt is one. Britain isnt one and thats why we dont have much in the way of religious killings etc (that im aware of). My parents raised me as a good Copt I went to church every sunday etc and it was a way of life (not that I was practising but just attended - mainly to see mates) but I left that crap behind me and focus on life instead. It doesnt mean you forget about religion but it means you dont become enveloped in propaganda etc.

 

[Bonsaiboy]

Re: 'Soldier beheaded' oustide barracks in Woolwich

Bonsaiboy / DHSF

So when the Koran says you can kill non-believers of Islam, that is taken out of context and you can find many awful sentences in the Bible if you take them out of context too.

Why are they taken out of context? What is the Quran? It is a divine message delivered from GHod via the angel Gabrielle to the prophet Mohammed. Everything ever written before is null and void. Mohammed was the last prophet. It can never be amended. Would a divine being deliver a message that can be taken out of context? I think not. What is written in the Quran is considered truth for all time.

Islam is a religion of peace if you submit to it. But you're told time and time again in the Quran that it means anything but peace if you're a non-believer. I hope all the non-believers out there like fire, because we are going to be burning in it eternally, apparently.

It's a falsehood to compare it to the Bible. The Bible is just a collection of Jewish fairy stories with a few new stories added to it - more half real fairy stories about a chap called Jesus.

The Quran was written by a single person. It's much more cohesive, much more of an ideology. It's separates out the world out into Believers and Unbelievers, and sets out its stated aim: to conquer that world.

Why should Islam - or any other religion - be given some kind of special status where it is immune from all criticism? Is it because there is some kind of thing about religions that they are "special" in some way?

I'd like to hear a sound and rational argument why that should be the case. It would seem to me there is a growing movement to suppress all criticism of Islam in particular, because it might radicalize some young Muslims - this is like saying you shouldn't talk back to a bully in case they hit you!

If someone said they believed Hitler were a prophet, would quoting Mein Kampf then be considered acceptable, and would building temples to worship him be acceptable?

 

[DHSF]

Re: 'Soldier beheaded' oustide barracks in Woolwich

DHSF, you've probably already seen this but in case not, thought you'd find it funny

Sorry guys, only for the Arabic speakers

haha mate - I dont read or write arabic haha. I went to Arabic school when I was 15, they put me with the four year olds. I walked out. Never returned. I speak it and understand it thats about it.

 

[africanspurs]

Re: 'Soldier beheaded' oustide barracks in Woolwich

Why are they taken out of context? What is the Quran? It is a divine message delivered from GHod via the angel Gabrielle to the prophet Mohammed. Everything ever written before is null and void. Mohammed was the last prophet. It can never be amended. Would a divine being deliver a message that can be taken out of context? I think not. What is written in the Quran is considered truth for all time.

you have the power to be a very dangerous person if you can convince people that what you are saying it the truth cause it isnt. especially above.....the quran as far as what i have been told in some very intense discussions is part of a string of messages that make up the whole statement. but it is the last one, believe it or not but the jews and muslims have alot of stuff in common. there is even a lot in common with christians......except for the big elephant in the room of the messiah being Christ.