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American politics

LutonSpurs said:
Rob doesn't know anything other than brick he reads on his x feed. He's spouting misinformation. If you have kids please ignore this dangerous tinpot idiot.
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People who, from the relative safety of a decently vaccinated population who claim the vaccinations are the problem, when in reality if we rolled back to pre vaccine and 3m kids a year were dying round the world, they would be calling out for help. Using a safe position to spout nonsense about vaccines because of some anecdotal evidence.
 
MartyFunkhouser said:
People who, from the relative safety of a decently vaccinated population who claim the vaccinations are the problem, when in reality if we rolled back to pre vaccine and 3m kids a year were dying round the world, they would be calling out for help. Using a safe position to spout nonsense about vaccines because of some anecdotal evidence.
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US measles mortality fell by 98% from 1910 to 1962 when the vaccine was developed. 400 deaths per year. That trend would have continued over the next 65 years.
 
robp135 said:
US measles mortality fell by 98% from 1910 to 1962 when the vaccine was developed. 400 deaths per year. That trend would have continued over the next 65 years.
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And people who would otherwise be dead are now alive because of it, the fact you put such low value on that makes you sound like abit of an entitled pr1ck TBH
 
robp135 said:
Sure thing bud.
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Its true, you seem to place such low value on something that has clearly been a force for good because the odds are in your favour. It sounds smarmy whilst I imagine those whose kids have died from measles would much prefer a time when the vaccination was more readily available.

We stand on the shoulder of giants who have made life better for humanity, only for people to sh1t on it
 
MartyFunkhouser said:
Its true, you seem to place such low value on something that has clearly been a force for good because the odds are in your favour. It sounds smarmy whilst I imagine those whose kids have died from measles would much prefer a time when the vaccination was more readily available.

We stand on the shoulder of giants who have made life better for humanity, only for people to sh1t on it
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If you feel the need to personally insult me due to our interaction today that’s your choice. Just as it’s my choice whether to vaccinate my child or not.
 
robp135 said:
No you cannot say that with any confidence. Most people carry measels antibodies in their system via vaccination. As would someone that’s had measels. In both cases, they will typically pass those antibodies on to the child.

This is more likely to be the case than the mother having measels and if it were we almost certainly would have been told about it given the desperation to report on a measels death.
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The 'desperation' to report a 'measles death' has largely come about because of the anti-vaxx lobby's growth and influence within the central corridors of US power. That lobby has seen fit to repeatedly plant a combination of spurious and unproven results based on skewed surveys into the public information flow, and forcibly try and bake them in as hard, unequivocal truths. There has to be a counter to Kennedy, etc, and a robust one. If only so as people can make their choices based on precedent and the facts which have resulted from such precedents. I often find the anti-vaxx arguments similar to those put forth by anti-welfare folks. Anti-welfare people will always, always hammer the few who take advantage of the system, and never the many who legally and rightfully benefit from it. It always appears to me that the anti-vaxx lobby wants to convince me that the minority of cases where there are negative reactions/deaths from vaccinations are the majority norm, and that we're creating the problems by getting vaccinated. And look, if that is an opinion someone holds, that's theirs, great, have at it. But know that I will never, ever agree.

As a footnote, with the environmental changes being inflicted by the likes of global warming and industrial 'advances', our atmosphere, our fields, our trees, our air and oxygen are being impacted by changes we cannot gauge or understand. New threats to our bodies are everywhere all the time. A degree of temperature shift can unleash gawd knows what in terms of viruses and bacteria. Add that to our increasingly compromised food sources (and BTW, not all environmental, since we have seen the FDA's powers compromised, the amount of recalls on food products in the US is growing all the time) and we are at a point where we really -more than ever- should be trusting science.

Is there corporate greed in pharma? Of course!!!! You won't find an argument with me there. AND we need to find avenues of trust within pharmaceutical and science more than ever, because if we don't, not only will new things take us out, the dinosaurs of old will resurface and grow again.

I am never sure what your motive is for diving into these topics again BTW. Are you trying to make believers of people? Are you using the forum as a place to work through your own internal conversation on these matters? Because as it stands, nothing is going to change with regards to who believes in vaccinations here and who doesn't?
 
robp135 said:
If you feel the need to personally insult me due to our interaction today that’s your choice. Just as it’s my choice whether to vaccinate my child or not.
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???? I didn't see any personal insult. I saw a view as to how you came across? Surely it offers an opportunity to calmly explain your view. I'll ask you. Do you think the measles vaccination is pointless/not a good thing? Do you not acknowledge that without the sustained period of vaccinations humanity has had, measles would've been a huge and mortality-crushing problem?

To add further to my longer post earlier, I am all for the immune system being allowed to be it's great self with minimal interference (I have taken antibiotics -at most- a dozen times in my life as an example so as when I need them they really work) however with our environment changing a much as it has -and the effects it has on our bodies- the strength of the immune system whilst still remarkable, needs support in key areas.
 
thfcsteff said:
The 'desperation' to report a 'measles death' has largely come about because of the anti-vaxx lobby's growth and influence within the central corridors of US power. That lobby has seen fit to repeatedly plant a combination of spurious and unproven results based on skewed surveys into the public information flow, and forcibly try and bake them in as hard, unequivocal truths. There has to be a counter to Kennedy, etc, and a robust one. If only so as people can make their choices based on precedent and the facts which have resulted from such precedents. I often find the anti-vaxx arguments similar to those put forth by anti-welfare folks. Anti-welfare people will always, always hammer the few who take advantage of the system, and never the many who legally and rightfully benefit from it. It always appears to me that the anti-vaxx lobby wants to convince me that the minority of cases where there are negative reactions/deaths from vaccinations are the majority norm, and that we're creating the problems by getting vaccinated. And look, if that is an opinion someone holds, that's theirs, great, have at it. But know that I will never, ever agree.

As a footnote, with the environmental changes being inflicted by the likes of global warming and industrial 'advances', our atmosphere, our fields, our trees, our air and oxygen are being impacted by changes we cannot gauge or understand. New threats to our bodies are everywhere all the time. A degree of temperature shift can unleash gawd knows what in terms of viruses and bacteria. Add that to our increasingly compromised food sources (and BTW, not all environmental, since we have seen the FDA's powers compromised, the amount of recalls on food products in the US is growing all the time) and we are at a point where we really -more than ever- should be trusting science.

Is there corporate greed in pharma? Of course!!!! You won't find an argument with me there. AND we need to find avenues of trust within pharmaceutical and science more than ever, because if we don't, not only will new things take us out, the dinosaurs of old will resurface and grow again.

I am never sure what your motive is for diving into these topics again BTW. Are you trying to make believers of people? Are you using the forum as a place to work through your own internal conversation on these matters? Because as it stands, nothing is going to change with regards to who believes in vaccinations here and who doesn't?
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The fact Pharma makes money breaks people's rational thought process.

Child mortality is down to levels like never seen in history and people live decades longer than they ever have.

In massive part due to Pharma
 
MartyFunkhouser said:
The fact Pharma makes money breaks people's rational thought process.

Child mortality is down to levels like never seen in history and people live decades longer than they ever have.

In massive part due to Pharma
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Yup, it annoys me GREATLY to see that cliche wheeled out mate.
I have always been somewhat outside the corporate lines in terms of life and how I live, and have often had negative feelings towards some of the business practices of big pharmaceutical (as i'm sure many have)...and it is undeniable that there are many great things happening in medicine and science because of them and the dedicated, heartfelt people in those fields. Covid was a fine example. There were many low and crooked advantages taken of a crisis, and the work scientists did to accelerate programs they'd been working on for vaccinations and what not was incredible! I mean, forget where you think the thing came from (lab or monkey or whatever) a vaccine was developed. And I suppose you can either choose to believe it was developed as part of some wider 'grifting conspiracy' or you can accept that it was something of a medical miracle and we should be grateful.

In times where balance is increasingly hard to appreciate, it's a dangerous path isn't it.
 
thfcsteff said:
Yup, it annoys me GREATLY to see that cliche wheeled out mate.
I have always been somewhat outside the corporate lines in terms of life and how I live, and have often had negative feelings towards some of the business practices of big pharmaceutical (as i'm sure many have)...and it is undeniable that there are many great things happening in medicine and science because of them and the dedicated, heartfelt people in those fields. Covid was a fine example. There were many low and crooked advantages taken of a crisis, and the work scientists did to accelerate programs they'd been working on for vaccinations and what not was incredible! I mean, forget where you think the thing came from (lab or monkey or whatever) a vaccine was developed. And I suppose you can either choose to believe it was developed as part of some wider 'grifting conspiracy' or you can accept that it was something of a medical miracle and we should be grateful.

In times where balance is increasingly hard to appreciate, it's a dangerous path isn't it.
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You have nailed it.

The point i was making earlier was, if everyone took the stance of not giving their kids the MMR jab then life would quickly return to arctic Bellamy.

I stand by my view that if you are going to use the fact that others are getting it and therefore lowering the odds for yourself, only to not, than I find that massively cynical and selfish.
 
MartyFunkhouser said:
You have nailed it.

The point i was making earlier was, if everyone took the stance of not giving their kids the MMR jab then life would quickly return to arctic Bellamy.

I stand by my view that if you are going to use the fact that others are getting it and therefore lowering the odds for yourself, only to not, than I find that massively cynical and selfish.
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I think some recognition of that greater perspective would be warmly appreciated, yes.
 
thfcsteff said:
The 'desperation' to report a 'measles death' has largely come about because of the anti-vaxx lobby's growth and influence within the central corridors of US power. That lobby has seen fit to repeatedly plant a combination of spurious and unproven results based on skewed surveys into the public information flow, and forcibly try and bake them in as hard, unequivocal truths. There has to be a counter to Kennedy, etc, and a robust one. If only so as people can make their choices based on precedent and the facts which have resulted from such precedents.
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So the answer was a robust false claim that two people died from measels? Had you not read this thread today would you know that the 2 deaths were not a result of measles? Marty wouldn’t have.

thfcsteff said:
I often find the anti-vaxx arguments similar to those put forth by anti-welfare folks. Anti-welfare people will always, always hammer the few who take advantage of the system, and never the many who legally and rightfully benefit from it.
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The people who are most supportive of vaccines should be the most interested in them improving safety standard and there being a reduction in vaccine related injury. The people most supportive of welfare should be the most interested in preventing welfare fraud. In both cases, those most supportive are overly protective of any potential issues or wrong doing and it increases skeptism.

thfcsteff said:
It always appears to me that the anti-vaxx lobby wants to convince me that the minority of cases where there are negative reactions/deaths
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I appreciate you at least admit this happens as it’s a stretch for some.

thfcsteff said:
Is there corporate greed in pharma? Of course!!!! You won't find an argument with me there.
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Why does your skeptism of corporate greed in big pharma end with one of the most profitable products with federal immunity from lawsuits?

thfcsteff said:
I am never sure what your motive is for diving into these topics again BTW. Are you trying to make believers of people? Are you using the forum as a place to work through your own internal conversation on these matters? Because as it stands, nothing is going to change with regards to who believes in vaccinations here and who doesn't?
Click to expand...

I find it interesting to have challenging conversations. In this instance I found it amusing to see how far someone will go to defend clear wrongdoing. The retort to Whataboutism and insults are fun as well.

What is your motivation to respond?
 
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thfcsteff said:
Yup, it annoys me GREATLY to see that cliche wheeled out mate.
I have always been somewhat outside the corporate lines in terms of life and how I live, and have often had negative feelings towards some of the business practices of big pharmaceutical (as i'm sure many have)...and it is undeniable that there are many great things happening in medicine and science because of them and the dedicated, heartfelt people in those fields. Covid was a fine example. There were many low and crooked advantages taken of a crisis, and the work scientists did to accelerate programs they'd been working on for vaccinations and what not was incredible! I mean, forget where you think the thing came from (lab or monkey or whatever) a vaccine was developed. And I suppose you can either choose to believe it was developed as part of some wider 'grifting conspiracy' or you can accept that it was something of a medical miracle and we should be grateful.

In times where balance is increasingly hard to appreciate, it's a dangerous path isn't it.
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It’s funny you say that as I was thinking when you asked me about fraud with Covid relief funds the other day. Because the worst example of that in my opinion is the vaccines.

They were developed primarily through government funding. Both funding that has been in place for decades and then immediate funding for operation wharp speed in the US and similar efforts in other countries. The research, the trials, the manufacturing scale up and the distribution was all taxpayer funded.

The primary intellectual property rights to the vaccines to the major pharmaceutical companies in Moderna, Pfizer, Johnson & Johnson and AstraZenec. Their only role was to refine the vaccines to go to market. They subsequently sold hundreds of millions of doses back to the same governments that funded the development (in the US it was $15 a shot) buying back the publicly supported products for distribution to their populations.

Oh and anyone that got injured by the vaccines gets paid out by the taxpayer as well. It stinks.
 
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