Djed Spence

[SpurMeUp]

See someone who can play LB and RB and has done the hard yards to get into the side and England. Not for me.

Everyone has a price right. What would you sell for? Bearing in mind we can put it back into a stellar forward.

 

[LutonSpurs]

No. People are often careful with words

What kind of stuff do people want to say that they are scared of saying on here?

 

[Ace Face]

We have finished 17th every season he’s played.

So has every other player in the squad. Doesn’t make them all lower PL-quality players.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

What kind of stuff do people want to say that they are scared of saying on here?

I don't mind Woolwich, I use to watch them with my mate in late 50's, fans weren't so horrible back then.

 

[JerusalemMan]

What kind of stuff do people want to say that they are scared of saying on here?

I meant that I think no-one here has gone as far as to accuse another poster of unconscious bias.

 

[Ace Face]

I meant that I think no-one here has gone as far as to accuse another poster of unconscious bias.

Accusing some of having an unconscious bias sounds like the beginning of a Monty Python sketch…

“I accuse you of unconsciously thinking [abc]…”
“No I didn’t”
“Well, how would you know?”


Disclaimer: I’m not trying to undermine this debate, which I think is more culturally important than the merits of a football player. I just found that scenario amusing.

 

[thfcsteff]

So essentially, we cannot critique a player in djed Spence as he looks like he switches off in games and doesn’t concentrate at times and to call that out is because people are racially bias?

Only if you take it that way. No-one I know is saying that is the case, but if you wish to, that's your business.

If anything I’ve only given back handed compliments saying that he could go on to be an elite player if he used his physical attributes and applied himself better in games pertaining to what I’ve just mentioned.

OK, and?

And yes in various outlets he has opinions and people won’t agree with them … or the way he portrays himself people don’t like. It works both ways. I don’t particularly like everything I see of him in social media or outlets but I’ve already discussed previously.

Great.

But then to drag a back catalogue of black players into it just doesn’t sit well with me personally. It’s case by case, person by person.

I don't care what sits well with you personally, that is not my concern. I gave this discussion the courtesy of a thoughtful and honest personal response. I have explained my views on both Spence and the imbalance I believe exists in judging black players. And that's it really.

 

[thfcsteff]

I think Zlatan got tarred with that brush as well tbh. At least by the British press who used to always bring up his record against English teams. Cantona, Vardy, Stephen Ireland spring to mind. LeSaux was classed as gay because he read the telegraph lol. Becks was hated until the Greece game. Romero for us at the moment as well.

Fair points, I'd discuss that these were all different situations because of specific actions. Cantona was because of the Palace kung-fu, Vardy was always banter albeit I do agree aspersions were cast based on his background, Ireland I remember and can see some comparisons, Le Saux was because of The Guardian and yes that was homophobic abuse based on nothing, Becks was because of 98 and I agree appalling (and yes, he was also hated in that fine British tradition of people being jealous of handsome successful people), so I see these and fail to see what Spence has done to deserve the levels he's received TBH.

EDIT: totally forgot about Vardy's racist outburst. The fudging clam.

 

[LutonSpurs]

I meant that I think no-one here has gone as far as to accuse another poster of unconscious bias.

You wouldn't normally as you can't prove it. But it is very real.

 

[thfcsteff]

Not really been discussed but….why would he want to be at Spurs? He is very clearly 2nd choice at RB. His LB minutes will now go to Robertson.

He is in the England squad. Despite the press noise he is trusted by Tuchel. There are 3 English RB’s you can argue are better than him. James & Livramento always injured and Trent does not work in the system. He wil probably want and go and be first choice somewhere.

I think this is a great point.

 

[Gazza]

Only if you take it that way. No-one I know is saying that is the case, but if you wish to, that's your business.




OK, and?




Great.





I don't care what sits well with you personally, that is not my concern. I gave this discussion the courtesy of a thoughtful and honest personal response. I have explained my views on both Spence and the imbalance I believe exists in judging black players. And that's it really.

Yet you have replied enough to reply non stop and attempt to break my points of view down, with your narrative.

And in typical fashion I respect your view in suggesting that it’s an imbalance because he is black in your opinion. I disagree however, and we can move on.

I personally couldn’t care less about his skin tone but you obviously see that within the discussion, even though no one has yet to bring that to the forefront, not even a hint of it. Not one jot, Not one iota.

So like I said you can be offended on his behalf and suggest that it’s because he is black, it’s not crossed my mind personally not at any point in time.

Let’s move on.

 

[robp135]

Fair points, I'd discuss that these were all different situations because of specific actions. Cantona was because of the Palace kung-fu, Vardy was always banter albeit I do agree aspersions were cast based on his background, Ireland I remember and can see some comparisons, Le Saux was because of The Guardian and yes that was homophobic abuse based on nothing, Becks was because of 98 and I agree appalling (and yes, he was also hated in that fine British tradition of people being jealous of handsome successful people), so I see these and fail to see what Spence has done to deserve the levels he's received TBH.

Yeh but you could also say that about some of the players you have mentioned. Sterling & Davids has been in multiple punch ups with team mates. Rashford known for downing tools, refusing to play out of position and constant tardiness which undermined managers. Baloteli is a complete head case. Dele, bless him we understand some of the reasons for it and none of us like to admit it but hes not capable of being a top level professional.

There are also black players you didnt mention who are a bit different personality wise but we universally agree are a bynch of c+nts. Spurs fans get accused of race being a reason we hate Sol Campbel and thats complete gonads. John Fashanu springs to mind as a black player universally viewed as a piece of brick and for good reason.

Do I think Djed gets some additional brick for being Muslim and Black? Yes. I think from an England perspective its as much to do with him being Spurs as well. But for the most part he is one of the weaker players in the squad and I think even his biggest supporters would admit that.

 

[thfcsteff]

Yet you have replied enough to reply non stop and attempt to break my points of view down, with your narrative.

I won't be doing so again, trust me. 'With my narrative'...it's my opinion!!!! I was TRYING to share my HONEST opinion in the spirit of conversation, but I won't be doing so with you again because it is clearly a waste of time. My 'narrative' FFS...I mean...

And in typical fashion I respect your view in suggesting that it’s an imbalance because he is black in your opinion. I disagree however, and we can move on.

What are you on about?

I personally couldn’t care less about his skin tone but you obviously see that within the discussion, even though no one has yet to bring that to the forefront, not even a hint of it. Not one jot, Not one iota.

Again, GREAT, well done you!

So like I said you can be offended on his behalf and suggest that it’s because he is black, it’s not crossed my mind personally not at any point in time.

I am not offended on anyone's behalf...what is this nonsense?

Let’s move on.

Yeah, whatever. Again, let me be clear. I shared an honest opinion with you. I wasn't trying to bring my 'narrative', I was actually challenging myself and looking into why I feel the way I do about it, which I then felt I'd share with you because I thought I spotted a genuine attempt to discuss something reasonably as opposed to the usual descent into semi-snarky flimflam.
Yet here we are.

 

[Gazza]

I won't be doing so again, trust me. 'With my narrative'...it's my opinion!!!! I was TRYING to share my HONEST opinion in the spirit of conversation, but I won't be doing so with you again because it is clearly a waste of time. My 'narrative' FFS...I mean...





What are you on about?



Again, GREAT, well done you!




I am not offended on anyone's behalf...what is this nonsense?



Yeah, whatever. Again, let me be clear. I shared an honest opinion with you. I wasn't trying to bring my 'narrative', I was actually challenging myself and looking into why I feel the way I do about it, which I then felt I'd share with you because I thought I spotted a genuine attempt to discuss something reasonably as opposed to the usual descent into semi-snarky flimflam.
Yet here we are.

Well that put the cat amongst the pidgeons.

You can say you genuinely posted, as did I. Hence saying moving on. To be fair I think your replies came across quite narky, but I may have misread them.

Challenging your own thoughts would be seeing another perspective no? Not just going over the same thing with lengthy posts again and again and again.

Move on. I’ve said what I’ve had to on a forum, I’m not really getting anywhere with it. So I’ll leave it be.

 

[thfcsteff]

Yeh but you could also say that about some of the players you have mentioned. Sterling & Davids has been in multiple punch ups with team mates. Rashford known for downing tools, refusing to play out of position and constant tardiness which undermined managers. Baloteli is a complete head case. Dele, bless him we understand some of the reasons for it and none of us like to admit it but hes not capable of being a top level professional.

I see where you're coming from, but the stink on fighters such as Bremner, Keegan, Bowyer, Woodgate, Hartson, etc, seems to clear far quicker. I genuinely did not know Sterling had been involved in multiple punch-ups, Davids? He was certainly aggressive and confrontational, but of that era of Dutch players it was him, Guillet and Seedorf getting singled out repeatedly as opposed to the likes of Van Persie, the De Boer brothers, Van der Vat, etc. Rashford, again perhaps there is legitimacy to what you're saying yet his colour was invevitably brought into it. Balotelli, well yes I'd have to concede that LOL...Dele? Had he been indulged like Gazza would we say that?

There are also black players you didnt mention who are a bit different personality wise but we universally agree are a bynch of c+nts. Spurs fans get accused of race being a reason we hate Sol Campbel and thats complete gonads.

I would agree on Sol (have to say anyone who thinks it is a race issue there is genuinely mad - I will say on a sidenote he was incredibly nice to my son a couple of times in the PL after matches back in that day).

John Fashanu springs to mind as a black player universally viewed as a piece of brick and for good reason.

Another great example.

Do I think Djed gets some additional brick for being Muslim and Black? Yes. I think from an England perspective its as much to do with him being Spurs as well. But for the most part he is one of the weaker players in the squad and I think even his biggest supporters would admit that.

And perhaps you're right. I certainly hope so. But when the light is there to be shined on an average to brick poor team performance either at Spurs or England, he does seem to attract a very disproportionate level of abuse.

 

[thfcsteff]

Well that put the cat amongst the pidgeons.

You can say you genuinely posted, as did I. Hence saying moving on. To be fair I think your replies came across quite narky, but I may have misread them.

You absolutely did. And if you re-read the one I wrote about my own views, how you could interpret that as snarky is actually beyond me.

Challenging your own thoughts would be seeing another perspective no? Not just going over the same thing with lengthy posts again and again and again.

It depends what you're looking to do. At the risk of sounding 'snarky' here, I am not comfortable getting into any sort of existential discussion about such things. What I will say is, look at the exchanges I (generally) have with @robp135 , who does seem to get into genuine conversations.

 

[Penwith Pete]

You wouldn't normally as you can't prove it. But it is very real.

Nah, it's not real as it's not really unconscious, it's just that most people are, understandably, too scared to examine or even acknowledge their thoughts.

 

[glasgowspur]

Everyone has a price right. What would you sell for? Bearing in mind we can put it back into a stellar forward.

That is true, but could we get a better back up RB and lb cover.
It's a tricky equation.

 

[Gazza]

You absolutely did. And if you re-read the one I wrote about my own views, how you could interpret that as snarky is actually beyond me.



It depends what you're looking to do. At the risk of sounding 'snarky' here, I am not comfortable getting into any sort of existential discussion about such things. What I will say is, look at the exchanges I (generally) have with @robp135 , who does seem to get into genuine conversations.

I find rob quite good on the forum, don’t always share his views but speaks his mind even if others get offended (easily may I add). That’s all I have to say.

 

[thfcsteff]

I find rob quite good on the forum, don’t always share his views but speaks gos mind even if others get offended. That’s all I have to say.

Likewise.
We certainly don't always agree that's for sure, but I think he's earnest and genuine personally.