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This is what concerns me

Spot on. What else worries me is the narrative. Everybody is talking about Spurs going down and not only does that seep into the mentality of the players, it also affects officials and impacts on their decision making. Spurs are going down, so I will give that 50-50 to the other player, I will disallow that goal, I will send off that Spurs player. It happened in reverse when Leicester won the league. Hulk was playing volleyball in our penalty box and refs ignored it. Why? Because Leicester were going to win the league! If I was running the club, there would be a thousand pound fine for anybody uttering the R word!
 
It's the same thing whether attempting to show something in a positive or negative light: League finishes are not dictated by a calender year.

It's too far to say it's irrelevant, we've been brick this year, relegation form, if the manner in which our competitions worked, much like we were great in that year with Poch, title winning form if yada yada yada...It doesn't mean we'll be relegated as much as it doesn't mean we won the title. 2 consecutive of this, then yep, that'll do nicely for a few new away days but it's nowhere near done yet. And even if it is, it's a new life experience that we can either deal with, or flap about.

I know it's blindingly obvious, it's not as if there's any misunderstanding, but it is picking out data in a somewhat selective and arbitrary way.

@Gilzeantoscore On that one, to me it seems to be heading down the route of blaming the fans, who pay to be there and are entitled to free speech, and it depends on your perspective, but people moan when they aren't impressed with something*. There's something in there in regards to manifestations and the power of positivity, alongside the importance of words, but it's about results and the accompanying points.

The fans aren't perfect, that's the same everywhere whether it's arsehole parents watching their kids play giving brick to the ref (been there done that as the ref), or top level football where punters may forget that they're hurling unconstructive feedback at human beings.

It's possible I've missed both of your points, I have a 20 hour journey back to the delightful greyness of blighty on the cards so I am all ears for more context.

*This debate may be a tired old one for some people and possibly not the intent for this thread, not sure if new ground can be covered on it tbh
 
braineclipse said:
Yeah, the faster that zero in the W column can turn into a 1 the better. We're desperate for a win at the moment.
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In the context of the relegation fight, yes, we need a few wins, but the longer we go without one, the more the pressure builds and the harder it gets. We have to break the cycle, and I dare say it has to happen now or we won't pull out of this nosedive. The next match is a must-win, IMHO, and we should treat it with the importance of a CL final.
 
Gilzeantoscore said:
Spot on. What else worries me is the narrative. Everybody is talking about Spurs going down and not only does that seep into the mentality of the players, it also affects officials and impacts on their decision making. Spurs are going down, so I will give that 50-50 to the other player, I will disallow that goal, I will send off that Spurs player. It happened in reverse when Leicester won the league. Hulk was playing volleyball in our penalty box and refs ignored it. Why? Because Leicester were going to win the league! If I was running the club, there would be a thousand pound fine for anybody uttering the R word!
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You are sounding like a Liverpool fan right now.
 
Rorschach said:
In the context of the relegation fight, yes, we need a few wins, but the longer we go without one, the more the pressure builds and the harder it gets. We have to break the cycle, and I dare say it has to happen now or we won't pull out of this nosedive. The next match is a must-win, IMHO, and we should treat it with the importance of a CL final.
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I think it can happen later on as well, but for sure the sooner the better.

Agreed that the next game should be treated with the absolute utmost of importance. But that will remain true for all our league games unless/until we can look at the table and breathe a sigh of relief.
 
spurspinter1 said:
It's the same thing whether attempting to show something in a positive or negative light: League finishes are not dictated by a calender year.

It's too far to say it's irrelevant, we've been brick this year, relegation form, if the manner in which our competitions worked, much like we were great in that year with Poch, title winning form if yada yada yada...It doesn't mean we'll be relegated as much as it doesn't mean we won the title. 2 consecutive of this, then yep, that'll do nicely for a few new away days but it's nowhere near done yet. And even if it is, it's a new life experience that we can either deal with, or flap about.

I know it's blindingly obvious, it's not as if there's any misunderstanding, but it is picking out data in a somewhat selective and arbitrary way.

@Gilzeantoscore On that one, to me it seems to be heading down the route of blaming the fans, who pay to be there and are entitled to free speech, and it depends on your perspective, but people moan when they aren't impressed with something*. There's something in there in regards to manifestations and the power of positivity, alongside the importance of words, but it's about results and the accompanying points.

The fans aren't perfect, that's the same everywhere whether it's arsehole parents watching their kids play giving brick to the ref (been there done that as the ref), or top level football where punters may forget that they're hurling unconstructive feedback at human beings.

It's possible I've missed both of your points, I have a 20 hour journey back to the delightful greyness of blighty on the cards so I am all ears for more context.

*This debate may be a tired old one for some people and possibly not the intent for this thread, not sure if new ground can be covered on it tbh
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Nothing to do with the fans at all. I think you have misinterpreted me. it's about the narrative that is being sprayed all over the place on MSM and the internet. I reckon, in some instances, it becomes self-fulfilling, in terms of player morale and how refs administer games.
 
braineclipse said:
I think it can happen later on as well, but for sure the sooner the better.

Agreed that the next game should be treated with the absolute utmost of importance. But that will remain true for all our league games unless/until we can look at the table and breathe a sigh of relief.
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It could happen on the final day of course, but as you said, the sooner the better. A win in the next match will a psychological boost to the players/fans and the complete opposite for our fellow relegation battlers. If we can eke out a win or even two early doors, we will be almost safe, and it will effectively extinguish hope for one of the other teams battling relegation with us, consequently making our task that much easier. Anyway, I think we agree on this.
 
Rorschach said:
It could happen on the final day of course, but as you said, the sooner the better. A win in the next match will a psychological boost to the players/fans and the complete opposite for our fellow relegation battlers. If we can eke out a win or even two early doors, we will be almost safe, and it will effectively extinguish hope for one of the other teams battling relegation with us, consequently making our task that much easier. Anyway, I think we agree on this.
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Oh I too think we're in agreement.

Another bonus if that could happen early is that we could then potentially take the CL games seriously and actually get some enjoyment out of this cursed season.

Can't help but feel that the Romero suspension unfortunately is huge for us. Probably would have lost the NLD regardless, but having him available for the next two would have been big for us. Hopefully some of the injured players can return as has been hinted at.
 
braineclipse said:
Oh I too think we're in agreement.

Another bonus if that could happen early is that we could then potentially take the CL games seriously and actually get some enjoyment out of this cursed season.

Can't help but feel that the Romero suspension unfortunately is huge for us. Probably would have lost the NLD regardless, but having him available for the next two would have been big for us. Hopefully some of the injured players can return as has been hinted at.
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A very good point.

I'll take a similar outcome to last year, where we win a European trophy and finish near the bottom. :)
 
I posted in the game chat, but it’s the injury situation that concerns me more then the games, we are not even fielding our second team but a mixture of 3rd teamers with youth on the bench:

1st team: Vicario/Porro/VDV/Romero/Udogie/Bentacur/Palhinha/Maddison/Kulu/Kudus/Solanke (8 of 11 out with only Solanke back for next game)

2nd Team: Kinsky/Spence/Danso/Dragusin/Davies/Gallagher/Bergvall/Gray/Odobert/Simons/Richarlison (5 of 11 out with only Richy and maybe Danso back for next game)

3rd team players: Souza/Bissouma/Tel/Muani/Sarr/Austin/Kids..

With our first team and a few second teamers I would be pretty confident, but predominantly second and third team players I’m not. We know the likes of Bissouma was not wanted due to effort/attitude - Tel/Souza not near ready for regular starts, Muani..unsure at the moment - but we will struggle to compete, those who do play are getting overrun which is why they are not normal starters etc..
 
Rorschach said:
In the context of the relegation fight, yes, we need a few wins, but the longer we go without one, the more the pressure builds and the harder it gets. We have to break the cycle, and I dare say it has to happen now or we won't pull out of this nosedive. The next match is a must-win, IMHO, and we should treat it with the importance of a CL final.
Click to expand...
I’m not classing Fulham away as a must win. We rarely win there. If we get a point, I’ll be happy. I’m a little worried that if we lose, particularly badly, and people believe it’s must win, Tudor could come under pressure already.

Palace for me is absolutely must win. If we can’t beat Fulham or Palace, with Liverpool away on the horizon, it’ll look very very bleak for us.
 
DeanoAustin said:
I’m not classing Fulham away as a must win. We rarely win there. If we get a point, I’ll be happy. I’m a little worried that if we lose, particularly badly, and people believe it’s must win, Tudor could come under pressure already.

Palace for me is absolutely must win. If we can’t beat Fulham or Palace, with Liverpool away on the horizon, it’ll look very very bleak for us.
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I hear what you're saying, but tbf Tudor is under pressuire from day one. We are and have been in the muck before he joined and his remit reflects that. He knows the target and seems lazer focused to achieve it.
Whether he/we achieve it? Stay tuned...
 
DeanoAustin said:
I’m not classing Fulham away as a must win. We rarely win there. If we get a point, I’ll be happy. I’m a little worried that if we lose, particularly badly, and people believe it’s must win, Tudor could come under pressure already.

Palace for me is absolutely must win. If we can’t beat Fulham or Palace, with Liverpool away on the horizon, it’ll look very very bleak for us.
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Fair enough. I'd take a point too rather than a defeat, but the thrust of my argument is that the longer we don't win, the harder it will get for us. Each 'failure' only ramps up the importance of the next match, and this bunch doesn't have the mental fortitude for the fight, from current evidence. If we are still scrabbling for points at the end of the season, I'm pretty sure we are gone.
 
DeanoAustin said:
I’m not classing Fulham away as a must win. We rarely win there. If we get a point, I’ll be happy. I’m a little worried that if we lose, particularly badly, and people believe it’s must win, Tudor could come under pressure already.

Palace for me is absolutely must win. If we can’t beat Fulham or Palace, with Liverpool away on the horizon, it’ll look very very bleak for us.
Click to expand...
I wonder what would happen should we gain no points from our first, say, four games with Tudor...do the club twist again, a la Stellini?

Let's hope we don't have to find out, but it's an interesting (if slightly terrifying) question.
 
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