Thomas Frank - Head Coach

[Jurgen the German]

Palace, Brentford, Sunderland, west ham, Burnley….

What we deserved was W, D, L, L, D. Absolute waste.

Honestly the spin is incredible!

I’m amazed people (ok one poster) keep insisting Vicario was fouled for the West Ham keeper rather than admit he’s just weak and cowardly when it comes to set pieces. Their winner wasn’t a foul in any world or alternate universe.

 

[Robspur12]

How many more times do we need to see chaos-ball in the 2nd half?

edit; Really good point by the way! The above comment is not about today.

I don’t know what you mean by that even after your edit? You can definitely make the case that we have been poor in the first half of several recent games . But today for example, TF tweaked it second half and we were the better team? We passed well, battled and won second balls and scored 2 goals. Isn’t that just good football? It wasn’t chaos ball against Burnley either? Or WestHam, where we picked up and played well after a poor first half. In fact iirc we were unlucky not to score the winner before WHAM did.

 

[Bullet]

Seems to be that Spurs play fairly conservatively and try to keep it 0-0 and tight... then when we go 2 goals down we say "F THIS" and are much more proactive in our play and force ourselves forwards, right at the moment that the opposition start to sit back a bit and rest on their winning position.

It is very hard to assess but I think that is the pattern... if we are drawing we play within ourselves, if we are winning we sit back and try to hang on, if we are losing we really go for it. Am I wrong?

 

[El Dante]

Thomas Frank still needs to take the handbrake off. We have seen it so many times now. Let us swarm over our rivals, let us attack and give pressure to our opponents and we come alive. This is the do or die decision that will decide his future. If he unleashes us against United, lets us start as if we were in the second half, not the first, then we will start to win more. I mean we caused mistakes from City’s players under pressure and we ought to have ended up winning. Surely he can see that?! If he can’t then he has no future with us. Trust the team and set them free.

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

I don’t know what you mean by that even after your edit? You can definitely make the case that we have been poor in the first half of several recent games . But today for example, TF tweaked it second half and we were the better team? We passed well, battled and won second balls and scored 2 goals. Isn’t that just good football? It wasn’t chaos ball against Burnley either? Or WestHam, where we picked up and played well after a poor first half. In fact iirc we were unlucky not to score the winner before WHAM did.

Well that’s a matter of opinion, I’m still not seeing any structure or patterns of play in attack generally, it’s just run around a lot when we’re chasing a game and tbh we actually look better for it, playing with a bit of tempo and risk. Very happy with a point v City though with all those injuries, battled hard.

What do you mean by TF tweaked it? Romero going off injured/sick?

 

[Bishop]

Thomas Frank still needs to take the handbrake off. We have seen it so many times now. Let us swarm over our rivals, let us attack and give pressure to our opponents and we come alive. This is the do or die decision that will decide his future. If he unleashes us against United, lets us start as if we were in the second half, not the first, then we will start to win more. I mean we caused mistakes from City’s players under pressure and we ought to have ended up winning. Surely he can see that?! If he can’t then he has no future with us. Trust the team and set them free.

The handbrake wasn't on in the first half though.we were probably already the better side before their goal, after which we did go into our shells and City had the game by it's grip but that wasn't really a handbrake thing. That was our players reacting to some specifically poor moments individually

 

[Robspur12]

Well that’s a matter of opinion, I’m still not seeing any structure or patterns of play in attack generally, it’s just run around a lot when we’re chasing a game and tbh we actually look better for it, playing with a bit of tempo and risk. Very happy with a point v City though with all those injuries, battled hard.

What do you mean by TF tweaked it? Romero going off injured/sick?

Watch MoTD on iplayer mate and you'll see how he tweaked it and also you'll hear Conor Gallagher say that the manager inspired the comeback with his half time teamtalk.

 

[braineclipse]

Seems to be that Spurs play fairly conservatively and try to keep it 0-0 and tight... then when we go 2 goals down we say "F THIS" and are much more proactive in our play and force ourselves forwards, right at the moment that the opposition start to sit back a bit and rest on their winning position.

It is very hard to assess but I think that is the pattern... if we are drawing we play within ourselves, if we are winning we sit back and try to hang on, if we are losing we really go for it. Am I wrong?

That's how I see it too.

I hope part of it is "periodisation". We have a lot of injuries and probably fatigue in the squad. We looked really good for 20-25 minutes in the second half against City, but we could all see how exhausted the players looked towards the end. We can't play like we did in that 20-25 minute spell for 90, or even 45 minutes.

But I also think had it stayed 0-0 until half time we wouldn't have seen what we saw in those 20-25 minutes, it would most likely have been more caution and trying to keep it tight.

But we need to find ways to have more of an attacking threat in those periods where we're seemingly at least mostly trying to keep it tight.

 

[parj]

Seems to be that Spurs play fairly conservatively and try to keep it 0-0 and tight... then when we go 2 goals down we say "F THIS" and are much more proactive in our play and force ourselves forwards, right at the moment that the opposition start to sit back a bit and rest on their winning position.

It is very hard to assess but I think that is the pattern... if we are drawing we play within ourselves, if we are winning we sit back and try to hang on, if we are losing we really go for it. Am I wrong?

That's what it felt like in before the injuries. I don't think that at the moment. I think the players that are left are showing we can play football from the beginning - yesterday I just felt some players were too far away from the attack to be a meaningful option in the first half. Second half the balance was better - and Palinha showed he doesn't need any help. For me it's clear we have to play 4-3-x because 5-2-x or 3-5-x just took away our balance.

 

[braineclipse]

That's what it felt like in before the injuries. I don't think that at the moment. I think the players that are left are showing we can play football from the beginning - yesterday I just felt some players were too far away from the attack to be a meaningful option in the first half. Second half the balance was better - and Palinha showed he doesn't need any help. For me it's clear we have to play 4-3-x because 5-2-x or 3-5-x just took away our balance.

Said it before, but I don't think formation matters that much, as long as the players are suited to the roles they're asked to play. We have players quite capable of both a 4-x-x and 3-x-x lineup. Neither formation is in itself the problem or the solution.

May be some games where one formation is better for that individual game than another. But not sure if we should work towards being able to change between the two flexibly at this point.

Also said this before, but the shift in formation to me seems like a sign of desperation from Frank. Forced into a back 3 because of injuries, get a result so stick with it even though the next games aren't necessarily particularly suited to that. Would we have played a back in the last couple of league games if not for being forced into it against Dortmund? Is it a tactical choice based on the game and opposition (as well as available players of course) or is it a "this worked last time so we do that again".

 

[Mr Gogolak]

Seems to be that Spurs play fairly conservatively and try to keep it 0-0 and tight... then when we go 2 goals down we say "F THIS" and are much more proactive in our play and force ourselves forwards, right at the moment that the opposition start to sit back a bit and rest on their winning position.

It is very hard to assess but I think that is the pattern... if we are drawing we play within ourselves, if we are winning we sit back and try to hang on, if we are losing we really go for it. Am I wrong?

I'm afraid the 'handbrake on' part is, unfortunately, the style of play Frank is trying to implement. Unfortunately, we have neither the speed, the passing ability nor the kind of concentration required to be a good counter-attacking team.

One of the reasons, I think, why some people want Postecoglou back is because the only way this team is going to get anything out of a game is by playing a tweaked version of 'Angeball'. Our runners aren't good enough to be a counter-attacking threat, so the only way to score is to put bodies in the opposition half, play short passes and press on.

It's a bit of a catch-22 situation for Frank: if he doesn't try to implement his system, we'll never be able to play it, but if we don't have the players for his system, it's never going to work either. You can afford to have a couple of ill-fitting players in a system if they bring something different but, right now, it's the opposite - we have a couple of players who could do well in that system but the rest just don't fit.

It will take a lot more signings before we adapt to what he's trying to do, but I'm pretty sure he'll be long gone before we come anywhere close.

 

[Raziel]

I'm afraid the 'handbrake on' part is, unfortunately, the style of play Frank is trying to implement. Unfortunately, we have neither the speed, the passing ability nor the kind of concentration required to be a good counter-attacking team.

One of the reasons, I think, why some people want Postecoglou back is because they only way this team is going to get anything out of a game is by playing a tweaked version of 'Angeball'. Our runners aren't good enough to be a counter-attacking threat, so the only way to score is to put bodies in the opposition half, play short passes and press on.

It's a bit of a catch-22 situation for Frank: if he doesn't try to implement his system, we'll never be able to play it, but if we don't have the players for his system, it's never going to work either. You can afford to have a couple of ill-fitting players in a system if they bring something different but, right now, it's the opposite - we have a couple of players who could do well in that system but the rest just don't fit.

It will take a lot more signings before we adapt to what he's trying to do, but I'm pretty sure he'll be gone we come anywhere close.

Which begs the question, why would we want to, and why is he trying to? knowing that.

Realistically
- He has a top level back line, yet he negates a lot of that by ceding possession and often playing too deep (VDV, Porro, Udogie all have enough pace that we can manage the breakaways)
- He has a top level destroyer, who is best used dropping back to cover vs. pushing forward, however has still managed to be one of our goal contributors. Again Frank tends to use in wrong pairing and with wrong intention
- He has a ton of legs, ball carriers in midfield that we rarely ever leverage (despite the two times we played Gray & Bergvall as example we looked better)
- He has got a 10 with elite potential, he needs to have the team move/make runs to give Xavi the most space and best options
- The weaknesses are probably out wide, Tel & Odobert have promise, Kudus struggles with end product.

The real frustration for me with Frank is the expectation would have been, he's had to make do in the past, he's never been in a position to demand/need "his players", he should have adapted to the squad available (lots of better players than he has had, certainly the best 25 he's ever had), instead it seems his focus on data/percentage football/caution is failing to get the best out of the team we have.

 

[Mr Gogolak]

Which begs the question, why would we want to, and why is he trying to? knowing that.

Realistically
- He has a top level back line, yet he negates a lot of that by ceding possession and often playing too deep (VDV, Porro, Udogie all have enough pace that we can manage the breakaways)
- He has a top level destroyer, who is best used dropping back to cover vs. pushing forward, however has still managed to be one of our goal contributors. Again Frank tends to use in wrong pairing and with wrong intention
- He has a ton of legs, ball carriers in midfield that we rarely ever leverage (despite the two times we played Gray & Bergvall as example we looked better)
- He has got a 10 with elite potential, he needs to have the team move/make runs to give Xavi the most space and best options
- The weaknesses are probably out wide, Tel & Odobert have promise, Kudus struggles with end product.

The real frustration for me with Frank is the expectation would have been, he's had to make do in the past, he's never been in a position to demand/need "his players", he should have adapted to the squad available (lots of better players than he has had, certainly the best 25 he's ever had), instead it seems his focus on data/percentage football/caution is failing to get the best out of the team we have.

The difference being that he was forced to work with what Brenftord gave him, but their scouting network gave him exactly the right players for his tactics. I've never checked, but I assume he himself was brought to the club using the same method.

All the papers I read on Brentford mentioned that they were very thorough in their evaluation of a player, taking into consideration the psychological aspect as well as the football skills. It was certainly a good match for Frank, who looks more like a stat-obsessed coach and a yes-man than a charismatic leader a la Postecoglou, who had players walk through brick walls for him.

Unless we start signing players on deadline day, I suppose that the board intend to keep him on until the end of the season and go for Pochettino after the World Cup to appease the fans. Considering they only weakened the squad over the past few weeks, it's hard to believe he has a future at the club beyond this season.

 

[Raziel]

The difference being that he was forced to work with what Brenftord gave him, but their scouting network gave him exactly the right players for his tactics. I've never checked, but I assume he himself was brought to the club using the same method.

All the papers I read on Brentford mentioned that they were very thorough in their evaluation of a player, taking into consideration the psychological aspect as well as the football skills. It was certainly a good match for Frank, who looks more like a stat-obsessed coach and a yes-man than a charismatic leader a la Postecoglou, who had players walk through brick walls for him.

Unless we start signing players on deadline day, I suppose that the board intend to keep him on until the end of the season and go for Pochettino after the World Cup to appease the fans. Considering they only weakened the squad over the past few weeks, it's hard to believe he has a future at the club beyond this season.

Bingo

 

[lurker of old]

I suppose that the board intend to keep him on until the end of the season and go for Pochettino after the World Cup to appease the fans. Considering they only weakened the squad over the past few weeks, it's hard to believe he has a future at the club beyond this season.
I hope you're wrong. Vinai saw how backing Arteta paid off over time, and you'd have thought he will want to repeat that. It's time we stopped writing off huge sums on sacking coaching teams - that money needs to go on players, not pay-offs.

 

[thfcsteff]

The club are entering a vulnerable time. ST renewals will be due, and statements of intent will have to arrive sharpish to avoid what I think could be a huge drop-off in renewals. Whether that comes from an on-pitch revival (results-wise, I stand by my assertion that we will not see the sort of football many want to see under TF) or from some ‘pre-announcement’ in April (which would require Frank’s removal and an interim) remains to be seen. For TF himself, I think getting through the CL last 16 is imperative, and ee need to find a way to put together a Europa League qualification run. Given the injuries, I think it’s going to be tough.

Poch would be the all-in-one band aid, and I love him, but think it would be a move doomed to fail if we made it. Again though, IMO, they will want to guard against ST non-renewal, so get ready for anything!!!

 

[Raziel]

The club are entering a vulnerable time. ST renewals will be due, and statements of intent will have to arrive sharpish to avoid what I think could be a huge drop-off in renewals. Whether that comes from an on-pitch revival (results-wise, I stand by my assertion that we will not see the sort of football many want to see under TF) or from some ‘pre-announcement’ in April (which would require Frank’s removal and an interim) remains to be seen. For TF himself, I think getting through the CL last 16 is imperative, and ee need to find a way to put together a Europa League qualification run. Given the injuries, I think it’s going to be tough.

Poch would be the all-in-one band aid, and I love him, but think it would be a move doomed to fail if we made it. Again though, IMO, they will want to guard against ST non-renewal, so get ready for anything!!!

I'm not even sure I feel confident they get it that far. I know we are outsiders but the club feels adrift, it feels like people truly out of their depth.

As I've said elsewhere, Levy was a known entity, he would have taken steps to protect, this lot?

 

[thfcsteff]

I'm not even sure I feel confident they get it that far. I know we are outsiders but the club feels adrift, it feels like people truly out of their depth.

As I've said elsewhere, Levy was a known entity, he would have taken steps to protect, this lot?

I think so. It is a period of some uncertainty as a new regime tries to implement a new structure replacing that monolithic micro-management culture of the DL/DC era. It is hard for us to imagine just how fullsome their range and scope was over everything the club did, and the ramifications of replacing that mid-season with a new manager in place were always going to be tough. It feels like we are feeling the vaccum of ‘personality’ uptop; Levy’s shoes are enormous to fill. The corporate world is not where I live, however to me it looks like a lot of “VP” level folks with no clear CEO in the traditional sense. My suspicion is that VV is taking the ‘Arteta’ route, believing in the principle rather than analysing the facts (Arteta, and at that time Edu, were Arsenal boys and thus carried some of that DNA in them, Frank has no connection at all with us). We are walking a tightrope right now. Last 16 of the CL and still, somehow, within reach of an EL place if we can get that run going pretty soon. By the time April rolls around we could be out of the CL and adrift of anything beyond MTM (midtable mediocrity) which means one of two things; either we are going to keep drifting or next season will be a full recharge. I know what my money would be on :-(

 

[Baleforce]

The club are entering a vulnerable time. ST renewals will be due, and statements of intent will have to arrive sharpish to avoid what I think could be a huge drop-off in renewals. Whether that comes from an on-pitch revival (results-wise, I stand by my assertion that we will not see the sort of football many want to see under TF) or from some ‘pre-announcement’ in April (which would require Frank’s removal and an interim) remains to be seen. For TF himself, I think getting through the CL last 16 is imperative, and ee need to find a way to put together a Europa League qualification run. Given the injuries, I think it’s going to be tough.

Poch would be the all-in-one band aid, and I love him, but think it would be a move doomed to fail if we made it. Again though, IMO, they will want to guard against ST non-renewal, so get ready for anything!!!

I don’t think there will be much of a shift with the waiting list where it is.

 

[Kane]

You can afford to have a couple of ill-fitting players in a system if they bring something different but, right now, it's the opposite - we have a couple of players who could do well in that system but the rest just don't fit.

Hmm, assuming that's true, would it suggest the club chose - and appointed - Frank knowing we had hardly any players to suit him?