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Thomas Frank - Head Coach

Muttley said:
Fans want him out so they create false persona's about him and have a cheap shot. Make him out to be some sort of soft touch. They want him to have a few little digs at his employers rather than stay professional. Harry had plenty of digs at his chairman especially as time progressed. He was never proprietorial about the company he worked for. I had big problems with that at the time. He wasn't great at recruitment either as he still wanted to operate like he was chatting to Barry Fry on the phone and negotiating deals at the lower level. He couldn't get a top tier club mindset, establish a philosophy and buy players for it. I used to just call him Stockpile Harry.
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Sorry, this is hilarious. You start by saying fans create false personas and then go on to do exactly that! You literally gave that persona a name!!
 
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SpurMeUp said:
Go on, say it......you miss Levy. :D
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What's interesting is that IF someone removes a powerhead who had basically run the whole ship, you'd have thought they would've accounted for the vacuum in authority by making sure that whoever took 'charge' (and I accept it is a whole new system) was at least strong and robust in their decision (or even non-decision) making. It feels like the ousting happened without quite as much thought as we might've expected? Hard to tell isn't it.
 
thfcsteff said:
What's interesting is that IF someone removes a powerhead who had basically run the whole ship, you'd have thought they would've accounted for the vacuum in authority by making sure that whoever took 'charge' (and I accept it is a whole new system) was at least strong and robust in their decision (or even non-decision) making. It feels like the ousting happened without quite as much thought as we might've expected? Hard to tell isn't it.
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Whenever you remove someone who has 25 years of institutional knowledge from any organization, it has unseen impacts, gaps nobody knew. etc.

The bigger issue seems to be the lack of understanding of how much of a beast Spurs is, and at times Levy was the only thing keeping us from total chaos (as it was before, some of Sugar era was a shed as well), and the failure to anticipate that and have someone willing to be that decision maker.

Leadership by consensus is always a brick show
 
Raziel said:
Very generous interpretation, I'd argue it's a risk/reward conversation

- Non 0% chance we get sucked into relegation battle
- Cost of every spot lower on table (IIRC it's was something like 1.5M/place?)
- Cost of missing out on European football (at start of Jan we were close enough)
- Cost of lost revenue (unsold seats, less food/drink, people don't stay back when we lose)
- Cost of reputation impact (for sponsors, for future players/managers, loss of perception of Spurs as top 6 club)

Having been in board meetings/proposals, I'd say it would be a very easy case to make to spend 100M in early January to mitigate the above, even if relatively little of that 100M was recoverable in future (i.e. maybe not long term players or players able to be sold on without a loss)

I can tell you my interpretation (from the outside, and yes, 100% speculation), you have a split leadership group

- 1 or 2 stuck their neck out for Frank's hiring (the 30 categories flimflam), and are reluctant to pull trigger because it reflects on them (which makes them even worse executives, good executives can admit something didn't work, take responsibility and correct)
- You have some who are against Frank
- Either the second group don't have enough power or there is a lack of understanding of who final decision lies with (GHod help us)
- And/or, second group think he's a dead man and summer is the decision point and they are not smart enough (see first section) to do the math, evaluate the risk position to push for change now.
- Push for change is probably affected by lack of succession planning, or, we have already made up our mind who the replacement is (3 guesses, it's not very original)
- and in all of that, none of know if these owners really are going to spend or they are all quietly whoring the club out for sale (again, fundamental misunderstanding that selling a club in European spots will be easier than one in 17th for 2 seasons in a row)
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Calculations like that would have to include an estimated probability of different outcomes and estimates about how likely that spending would be to change those likelihoods, no?

On your speculation I agree (my speculation too), I actually think it's difficult to imagine a situation where the leadership group wouldn't be split on this decision.
 
thfcsteff said:
What's interesting is that IF someone removes a powerhead who had basically run the whole ship, you'd have thought they would've accounted for the vacuum in authority by making sure that whoever took 'charge' (and I accept it is a whole new system) was at least strong and robust in their decision (or even non-decision) making. It feels like the ousting happened without quite as much thought as we might've expected? Hard to tell isn't it.
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There’s always going to be a transition after such a long tenure as Levy’s. I don’t think those running the club are hugely different to the logic fans have.

It’s notable that most of the grievances are retrospective. And most current decisions are backed as logical.
 
tommysvr said:
Sorry, this is hilarious. You start by saying fans create false personas and then go on to do exactly that! You literally gave that persona a name!!
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To be fair, I think it depends on the context of the conversation. There was a very serious side to the Levy/Harry thing where the PL squad quota rules were changing in his tenure. We never got to 25 with the right mix of overseas and homegrown and were always closer to 35 players. We couldn't manoeuvre in the transfer market as we had to sell to buy, and we always did our business late. We then had to alway loan players out and even had 3 or 4 over 25 as time progressed. Levy also didn't seem to accept market value and take any losses. So my little nickname for Harry was actually based on years of data.

Finney's assumption that Frank isn't demanding enough on his employers isn't backed with any data at all.
 
Muttley said:
To be fair, I think it depends on the context of the conversation. There was a very serious side to the Levy/Harry thing where the PL squad quota rules were changing in his tenure. We never got to 25 with the right mix of overseas and homegrown and were always closer to 35 players. We couldn't manoeuvre in the transfer market as we had to sell to buy, and we always did our business late. We then had to alway loan players out and even had 3 or 4 over 25 as time progressed. Levy also didn't seem to accept market value and take any losses. So my little nickname for Harry was actually based on years of data.

Finney's assumption that Frank isn't demanding enough on his employers isn't backed with any data at all.
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I dunno if it’s intentional but you seem to miss the point and then write unrelated long paragraphs in response.
 
thfcsteff said:
What's interesting is that IF someone removes a powerhead who had basically run the whole ship, you'd have thought they would've accounted for the vacuum in authority by making sure that whoever took 'charge' (and I accept it is a whole new system) was at least strong and robust in their decision (or even non-decision) making. It feels like the ousting happened without quite as much thought as we might've expected? Hard to tell isn't it.
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The thing is, Levy was clearly brilliant.

Removing him was an idiotic decision, ergo, it had to have been made by an idiot, or group of idiots.

So I wouldn’t expect them to have thought it through no.
 
tommysvr said:
I dunno if it’s intentional but you seem to miss the point and then write unrelated long paragraphs in response.
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Not at all. What I'm feeling here is that it is easy to play that narrative rather than discuss the counter arguments I've raised which seemed to get liked by other posters to be fair.

There has to be quid pro quo on forums. Look closely and I have given my opinion on why I don't think Harry would be any more demanding than Frank. I've actually gone way deeper into what some of what I feel the challenges are e.g. club brand.

I'm not laying all that out again.
 
Baleforce said:
The thing is, Levy was clearly brilliant.

Removing him was an idiotic decision, ergo, it had to have been made by an idiot, or group of idiots.

So I wouldn’t expect them to have thought it through no.
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When I play it back in my mind, Levy went through a long period of being great at some things but not so good at others. He made one play in 2019 to address this with Trevor Birch who didn't hang around long. He then spent the next period trying to remove himself from the football operations side and empower others. Now whether he made good or bad hires, the one thing still remained that Levy wasn't optimal at football operations. So he fell on his sword.

Now what we don't know is what the new regime really look like yet. It is surely way too early to be throwing stones at this new executive leadership structure. We had 25 years of data on Levy. Has he even been gone a year yet?
 
Muttley said:
Not at all. What I'm feeling here is that it is easy to play that narrative rather than discuss the counter arguments I've raised which seemed to get liked by other posters to be fair.

There has to be quid pro quo on forums. Look closely and I have given my opinion on why I don't think Harry would be any more demanding than Frank. I've actually gone way deeper into what some of what I feel the challenges are e.g. club brand.

I'm not laying all that out again.
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Can you point where I mentioned anything about Harry in my reply?
 
Muttley said:
When I play it back in my mind, Levy went through a long period of being great at some things but not so good at others. He made one play in 2019 to address this with Trevor Birch who didn't hang around long. He then spent the next period trying to remove himself from the football operations side and empower others. Now whether he made good or bad hires, the one thing still remained that Levy wasn't optimal at football operations. So he fell on his sword.

Now what we don't know is what the new regime really look like yet. It is surely way too early to be throwing stones at this new executive leadership structure. We had 25 years of data on Levy. Has he even been gone a year yet?
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Which clubs, which were not financially doped, had a larger improvement in their football operations in that 25 year period?
 
Baleforce said:
Which clubs, which were not financially doped, had a larger improvement in their football operations in that 25 year period?
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OK, so it comes down to definitions of ops. I think Levy grew the balance sheet unbelievably as other similar clubs flailed around. It's why our turnover is a "safe" half a billion. When I talk about football operations I think about things like manager hires and have a continuous squad strategy. Quality over quantity etc. As we transitioned into the post stadium period, I don't think our football operations have been that great at all. We've flip flopped between different manager philosophies and the squad churn has been horrible. We've had problems shifting players and I cannot remember a single time when I've felt we're optimal. Not that you ever really are, but I'm sure you know what I mean by that statement.

I just wanted Levy to really figure out what he's great at and then find other people to be great at the things he's not. That is leadership 101 when you think about it. I never felt he totally found that balance but will always be grateful for the journey he took us on. He has left us in great shape if we can ever find a way to appreciate it on the pitch.
 
Muttley said:
OK, so it comes down to definitions of ops. I think Levy grew the balance sheet unbelievably as other similar clubs flailed around. It's why our turnover is a "safe" half a billion. When I talk about football operations I think about things like manager hires and have a continuous squad strategy. Quality over quantity etc. As we transitioned into the post stadium period, I don't think our football operations have been that great at all. We've flip flopped between different manager philosophies and the squad churn has been horrible. We've had problems shifting players and I cannot remember a single time when I've felt we're optimal. Not that you ever really are, but I'm sure you know what I mean by that statement.

I just wanted Levy to really figure out what he's great at and then find other people to be great at the things he's not. That is leadership 101 when you think about it. I never felt he totally found that balance but will always be grateful for the journey he took us on. He has left us in great shape if we can ever find a way to appreciate it on the pitch.
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Great post
 
Muttley said:
OK, so it comes down to definitions of ops. I think Levy grew the balance sheet unbelievably as other similar clubs flailed around. It's why our turnover is a "safe" half a billion. When I talk about football operations I think about things like manager hires and have a continuous squad strategy. Quality over quantity etc. As we transitioned into the post stadium period, I don't think our football operations have been that great at all. We've flip flopped between different manager philosophies and the squad churn has been horrible. We've had problems shifting players and I cannot remember a single time when I've felt we're optimal. Not that you ever really are, but I'm sure you know what I mean by that statement.

I just wanted Levy to really figure out what he's great at and then find other people to be great at the things he's not. That is leadership 101 when you think about it. I never felt he totally found that balance but will always be grateful for the journey he took us on. He has left us in great shape if we can ever find a way to appreciate it on the pitch.
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Some fair stuff there.

But I think it’s often forgotten that under Levy we have had our most successful ever period of league finishes and European qualification.
 
Baleforce said:
Some fair stuff there.

But I think it’s often forgotten that under Levy we have had our most successful ever period of league finishes and European qualification.
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That's also such an important piece. It's why we're frustrated right now. When that stadium opened and we transitioned to a new cashflow model I thought our biggest challenge would be to get from our more natural position of 6th or 7th into that top 4. Perhaps we could then dream of even higher. Then you watch how it has played out (mostly under Levy) and it is a bit of a head scratcher.

I think the fan disposition would be different if we just felt like the financial solid foundations were represented with what we see on the pitch even if we put trophies to one side for a moment.
 
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