thfcsteff
Ralph Coates
This is the vital point IMO. Well stated.
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Thomas Frank - Head Coach
- Thread starter LutonSpurs
- Start date
This is the vital point IMO. Well stated.
SissokoWasGood (BoL)
Steve Carr
I really think this recent run has shown Frank’s personality and style to be something where there’s a question as to whether it suits the club. The talk of us being 17th, turning around an oil tanker, he is reminding me of Moyes at United where the job just seems too big for him.
And for sure it’s results colouring my opinion there. And I also think to be fair to Frank he puts a lot of stock in balance. Never too high or too low. Stick with the plan…we will lose games. And if results and performances were better he’d be getting praise for always being calm and wise in the crazy storm of the Premier League.
So much of what we’re seeing though is so bad that it goes beyond tactics and coaching. I think he clearly has a perception of football that interprets data in a really specific way. And so I think we’re seeing some really basic stuff in possession. But even accepting that, it shouldn’t be this bad. I think confidence is completely on the floor and something weird is going on with the squad. And I genuinely think part of it is that for all the squad may like Frank, it must be weird having gone from someone who for whatever faults you want to give him was an inspirational speaker, and someone who would talk the club up to the level he felt it deserved, and then to Frank’s style. The players need to believe in something, and they just look like shells of themselves right now.
And for sure it’s results colouring my opinion there. And I also think to be fair to Frank he puts a lot of stock in balance. Never too high or too low. Stick with the plan…we will lose games. And if results and performances were better he’d be getting praise for always being calm and wise in the crazy storm of the Premier League.
So much of what we’re seeing though is so bad that it goes beyond tactics and coaching. I think he clearly has a perception of football that interprets data in a really specific way. And so I think we’re seeing some really basic stuff in possession. But even accepting that, it shouldn’t be this bad. I think confidence is completely on the floor and something weird is going on with the squad. And I genuinely think part of it is that for all the squad may like Frank, it must be weird having gone from someone who for whatever faults you want to give him was an inspirational speaker, and someone who would talk the club up to the level he felt it deserved, and then to Frank’s style. The players need to believe in something, and they just look like shells of themselves right now.
totalspurs
Kevin-Prince Boateng
The position we are currently in, no cup competition, just above the relegation zone and it's halfway through the season.... it's nothing to do with the quality of the squad, this is all to do with the strategy and management.
All this talk about this one's not a top six player and that one's not a top six player is all irrelevant and balderdash. I don't really care about top 6 right now, I just want a manager who has the capability to make us look competitive and who clearly has a system which has foundations of an attacking set-up.
Player quality can be improved over time, but not before we have a strategy. And at the moment we have no clear strategy or direction from the manager...or if we do it's not one which aligns with the organisation's culture.
What I liked about Ang was that he had a clear strategy about what he wanted and his culture was always to think big ... Bigger than what we can realistically achieve with players he had availabile. And try to win right now, with what we have, even if what we have isn't good enough to win, but at least try to be brave. Act like you are a big club. That's all he kept driving at all the time.
Frank is the anti-Ang, a pragmatist, try not to lose, and just work with what we have, and over time we may get better, take stock, and see if we can improve little bits, with conditioning. A slow road to somewhere, or no where. All he keeps driving on about is "small details".
Frank is a good Manager, Ang was a good Leader...a club the size of Spurs always needs a Leader, preferably a great Leader with great management skills too (Poch had that).
All this talk about this one's not a top six player and that one's not a top six player is all irrelevant and balderdash. I don't really care about top 6 right now, I just want a manager who has the capability to make us look competitive and who clearly has a system which has foundations of an attacking set-up.
Player quality can be improved over time, but not before we have a strategy. And at the moment we have no clear strategy or direction from the manager...or if we do it's not one which aligns with the organisation's culture.
What I liked about Ang was that he had a clear strategy about what he wanted and his culture was always to think big ... Bigger than what we can realistically achieve with players he had availabile. And try to win right now, with what we have, even if what we have isn't good enough to win, but at least try to be brave. Act like you are a big club. That's all he kept driving at all the time.
Frank is the anti-Ang, a pragmatist, try not to lose, and just work with what we have, and over time we may get better, take stock, and see if we can improve little bits, with conditioning. A slow road to somewhere, or no where. All he keeps driving on about is "small details".
Frank is a good Manager, Ang was a good Leader...a club the size of Spurs always needs a Leader, preferably a great Leader with great management skills too (Poch had that).
SpurMeUp
Erik Thorstvedt
Funny how those who dislike Frank most correlate with those who didn’t want Ange sacked. It is so black and white.
We’ll never know if Frank might have done better with a unified fanbase actually supporting him and the side. Injuries are undoubtedly the biggest thorn in the side. But maybe the negativity from those who didn’t want Ange sacked had an impact? If placebos and double blinds are proven to have an effect, maybe the negativity from these supporters has also had an effect? Who knows.
We’ll never know if Frank might have done better with a unified fanbase actually supporting him and the side. Injuries are undoubtedly the biggest thorn in the side. But maybe the negativity from those who didn’t want Ange sacked had an impact? If placebos and double blinds are proven to have an effect, maybe the negativity from these supporters has also had an effect? Who knows.
SpurMeUp
Erik Thorstvedt
Imagine going to work and a quarter of the customers dont want to buy from you, instead they want to buy from your predecessor 
It probably would have some effect on your performance. Even if it didn’t effect you directly, coworkers would pick up on it and the negativity would spiral.
It probably would have some effect on your performance. Even if it didn’t effect you directly, coworkers would pick up on it and the negativity would spiral.
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tommysvr
Steve Carr
I don't think it's a stretch to say that the majority of Spurs fans want Frank out. I also don't think it's a stretch to say that the minority wanted Ange to stay.
SissokoWasGood (BoL)
Steve Carr
It has to be a bit you’re doing at this point right? If Frank continued getting results even to the level he was doing up to the start of November, he’d probably be fine right now. The fans have justifiably grown frustrated at the really bad results and performances, it’s no more complicated than that. Frank like any other manager knows the game.
Mrs Vert
Milija Aleksic
As much as I want him gone, I do find it laughable how some say Ange had us scoring more. I think its obvious if you swap out 60 G/A from grown ups and replace with kids who are being out scored by our CBs and a loan who seems so uninterested. I dont know any passage of play can help. (I mean it would but still)
We now have stopped doing what worked in the first 6 matches......we are probably fooked
We are now in spiral of low confidence and a fanbase who angry and have tapped out.
Seriously the next step the board make needs to be great one
We now have stopped doing what worked in the first 6 matches......we are probably fooked
We are now in spiral of low confidence and a fanbase who angry and have tapped out.
Seriously the next step the board make needs to be great one
Well considering we was told last season Ange had to adapt to all the injuries and come up with a plan, you can't then come up excuses for Frank and say 'Yeah but if he had x,y and z' it would be better. You're dealt with the hand you're dealt with, Ange was missing plenty of players throughout the season.
What I do know is for all the teams faults under Ange, I would much rather watch his side over what has been served up this season. And if he had the opportunity to work with Kudus, Simons and Muani it would have been a far more enjoyable experience than this utter mess. Yesterday morning I said Frank still should be given at least the season if not longer barring an absolute disaster. Well yesterday was an absolute disaster.....
DeanoAustin
Cecil Poynton
It’s pretty hard to find the words to describe what a blight this is on our club. fudging disgusting record.
DeanoAustin
Cecil Poynton
I believe Frank is an excellent coach to a level. We should be above that level and our expectations certainly are.
I also think the environment does not suit his style of man management. I’ve seen limited clips of him in the dressing room and he was very good at getting people, who were already pulling in the same direction, feeling good about things.
We’re too fractured a club for that to work right now. That’s why the intention behind getting the players to applaud the crowd was laudable but he didn’t read that some of the players aren’t and weren’t feeling that. He needs to get the players’ respect before getting them to follow his lead on that stuff and, to me, I don’t see that the players have bought into him at all.
Maybe I’m wrong, the above is very much supposition based on the limited evidence we see, but that’s my read of things.
thfcsteff
Ralph Coates
Why bother asking a hypothetical question based on your own personal assumptions?
I mean, if we all answer you, will it make our club's season better?
SpurMeUp
Erik Thorstvedt
Well there’s two points I was making.
1. Reading through the posts it is clear that a section of the fan base who didn’t want Ange sacked have been really anti-Frank. They never really got behind him.
Almost like they wanted him to fail so they could say: “see I told you…should have kept Ange”
2. If things like the placebo effect is proven. And even a doctor knowing whether a drug is real or a placebo has a proven effect (so they have to hide the placebo from the doctor too during medical studies: a double blind). Then it is an interesting question: did the divisive negative fans effect TS’ performance. Did it have no effect at all? Does having the fans fully onboard help a manager?
Legohamster
Les Medley
Reporters camped outside the training ground today, it's done isn't it ?
Who normally comes into the training ground day after a game? Are they just hoping to see Frank or someone or have they been given the heads up do you think?
Legohamster
Les Medley
Some players for numerous reasons, franks office will be there, he will have to go there if sacked
I can't imagine they are sending people there unless they think there is a good chance there is an announcement of sorts today.
Vinai literally made a statement on Friday so it's not going to be today unless he himself is losing the control of the club. If you think there's a new director of football coming in, there's no point firing the manager now unless they have a clear idea of who the new DoF wants in the role.
Legohamster
Les Medley
We would employ an interim wouldn't we and hope there is a bounce till the summer and then take it from there
Well there’s two points I was making.
1. Reading through the posts it is clear that a section of the fan base who didn’t want Ange sacked have been really anti-Frank. They never really got behind him.
Almost like they wanted him to fail so they could say: “see I told you…should have kept Ange”
2. If things like the placebo effect is proven. And even a doctor knowing whether a drug is real or a placebo has a proven effect (so they have to hide the placebo from the doctor too during medical studies: a double blind). Then it is an interesting question: did the divisive negative fans effect TS’ performance. Did it have no effect at all? Does having the fans fully onboard help a manager?
There is definitely a bit of number one out there in the fan base, if you look on social media, we have a LOT of fans who completely misremember everything else about Ange because, trophy.
For me it’s actually quite simple, Ange, thank you for finding a way to get us a trophy, but he wasn’t this free flowing, brilliant to watch manager over a season that he’s made out to be - personally I think had he stayed he’d probably also be getting sacked now as we struggle in the league again and get thumped in the champs league with that game plan - however it’s fair to say, we will never know if that would have been the case. I think we need to move on though.
I do think some were never going to accept Frank based on this, and the knives have been out since the start. However there’s also plenty, myself included who recognise it’s not all Frank, he’s a lot going against him with the squad, the leadership etc. However I don’t think he’s the right man to fix it either.
We need to stop the comparisons I feel, I don’t think Frank is the right man for us, I don’t think Ange was the right man for us (long term) and if I’m honest, I don’t think we’ve had the right man for us since Poch left. This entire situation is a mess, and it’s on the club.
If we are to apply business speak to this situation, the manager should now be on a pip - a performance improvement plan. We should be sitting down with him and saying that things need to improve on an agreed timeline, and seeking to understand what he is changing to ensure it's not just more of the same.
From the fans perspective looking in right now, I feel like the issue is that we are simply continuing to do the same things that have not worked. We have not moved to a back three, or changed our passing philosophy, and were Frank a manager with a set approach (ala Glasner or Amorim) this would be understandable. But TF was hired as a manager who adapts, adjusts to the opposition and out thinks them. What we have instead got is pretty much the same formation week after week, with a small tweak in personnel and absolutely no sign that the coaching staff are improving the attacking prowess of the side.
That pip mentioned above has a regular review cycle and an end date. At the end of that time, a decision should be taken as to whether there is any improvement or not. Improvement would mean end of pip or start of a new one, no improvement would mean end of employment.
Currently there's a lot to suggest Frank would not survive a pip.
From the fans perspective looking in right now, I feel like the issue is that we are simply continuing to do the same things that have not worked. We have not moved to a back three, or changed our passing philosophy, and were Frank a manager with a set approach (ala Glasner or Amorim) this would be understandable. But TF was hired as a manager who adapts, adjusts to the opposition and out thinks them. What we have instead got is pretty much the same formation week after week, with a small tweak in personnel and absolutely no sign that the coaching staff are improving the attacking prowess of the side.
That pip mentioned above has a regular review cycle and an end date. At the end of that time, a decision should be taken as to whether there is any improvement or not. Improvement would mean end of pip or start of a new one, no improvement would mean end of employment.
Currently there's a lot to suggest Frank would not survive a pip.