Frank Give him time or get rid?

[braineclipse]

Right, so I was going off the Bentancur prog passes bar chart that someone had posted earlier - Xgstat has Bentancur at 6.42 for last season so .5 ish higher than Noorgard, but for all intents & purposes same ball park. I think this still falls within my reasoning that Brentford played a different brand of football to what we are seeing deployed here.

Hard to say - managers don't tend to get too long at clubs to see about much of a style change, Arteta has gone the other way - become less progressive/open over time and of course there's always the old adage regarding building from the back. Emery, maybe - though I don't follow them too closely.

Managers coming in to clubs our size generally don't walk in to the situation where we had so many injuries and so many defeats/goals against the season prior eg big issues that need addressing. Maybe he has over-thought how much consideration those issues needed considering?

Different yes. I'm unsure on the extent of that difference. Didn't watch them that much, but what I did see it wasn't like a night and day difference between that and what we're seeing here in terms of style.

I agree that's the old adage. It's one I don't see much current truth value to for a club our size. The lack of examples of success stories with that approach at least gives less credence to an approach like that.

Maybe he has overthought it. I think more likely he's come here and done what most managers do. Try to do what got them into the job in the first place.

I've made this somewhat snarky point before. But it was argued that he was flexible and would adjust to the squad he had. He came in and mostly did the same thing he did with Brentford at first (in the PL at least). "Surpringly" our squad and Brentford's squad suited a similar style (to start with).

To be honest, fair enough. That's how he works, the club hired him. It's not what I would have preferred. But if that's his plan I would have preferred if he would have just come out and say that. (Wouldn't have made things better I think, just a preference).

 

[billyiddo]

Thing is mate, I agree with your last sentence and it doesn’t match up with what he was saying at the start of the season. Defeats/goals against are one thing, but he also walked into a club on a massive, massive high and having won a major trophy. You would surely calibrate and use that energy. Instead, it is all a far more distant memory than it should be.

Does it really matter? - is that where we are, holding a manager to task for what was said in press conferences having just joined? Do we not allow room for a new guy being positive before realising the job at hand was maybe tougher than he thought?

 

[thfcsteff]

So in a nutshell we are really, really badly coached.

I am glad someone has visually articulated what I think is obvious to the eyes.

 

[thfcsteff]

Does it really matter? - is that where we are, holding a manager to task for what was said in press conferences having just joined? Do we not allow room for a new guy being positive before realising the job at hand was maybe tougher than he thought?

No mate, it’s not where we are, simply part of it.

Essentially it feels to me that the general nature of these discussions (across the forum not ours per se) come down to one thing.
Do you believe he deserves time simply because of the concept of giving someone time regardless of the current situation?
Do you believe there is no sign at all that anything is going to change in even a reasonable amount of time (say two seasons)?

Personally, I think there is huge factor at play with regards to those directly above Frank. Who are they?? What do they want us to be?? Who can they attract player-wise to this club?? Will the New Boss pay wages in lieu of European football? I would, for example, love Xabi Alonso to waltz into the building and transform the club, however I cannot say with any degree of confidence that the current lot would support him properly.

Back to the ‘optimism’ comment. I allow anyone optimism (being generally an optimist myself) however when some of the early sentiments expressed (standing on the shoulders of others, great foundations) get flipped a few months later to (17th last season, not really a CL club because it came through a cup, there’s a lot of work to do here, fans don’t understand) then I have some issues. Again, in Frank’s defence he is being left dangling in the wind by the spineless suits around him, and as such is dealing with things he will never have dealt with before. I have sympathy.

 

[Mikey10]

Does it really matter? - is that where we are, holding a manager to task for what was said in press conferences having just joined? Do we not allow room for a new guy being positive before realising the job at hand was maybe tougher than he thought?

If he’d been in any way negative (realistic) then you can imagine the ensuing meltdown.

 

[thfcsteff]

If he’d been in any way negative (realistic) then you can imagine the ensuing meltdown.

And I get that.
But optimistic platitudes are easy to generate. These were very specific comments. He appears to have either not done his own due diligence or been caught out!
Again, in mitigation, the guy who hired him
was ousted two months later and that cannot be easy.

 

[Ace Face]

And I get that.
But optimistic platitudes are easy to generate. These were very specific comments. He appears to have either not done his own due diligence or been caught out!
Again, in mitigation, the guy who hired him
was ousted two months later and that cannot be easy.

Steff, hello mate.

I go back to something you mentioned a few months ago on the pod about the expectations TF has set for both himself and the club...in short that he hasn't set them high enough considering the size of the club.

Now go back to Ange's comment about "always win things in my second year", which at the time most people made fun of, but what he was really doing was laying a marker down for the players as to what his expectations were and that if they achieved less, he would be made to look an idiot. So, since they didn't want to let him down they collectively upped their own ambitions and expectations and lo and behold we a trophy.

Now apply that to TF's press conferences and he has essentially laid down a marker that mid-table with a nice cup run somewhere will be ok. Therein lies the problem.

 

[Mr Gogolak]

While that is fine logically/conceptually, is it really an issue?

- Current back line could play 4 or 3atb with ease, we have FBs that can play both FB/WB roles
- We have a strong DM
- We have wingers/AMs that are pretty flexible and can play both sides
- When fit, you have 2 creative midfielders in Madders & Xavi
- You can put a lot of running in midfield w/Gray, Bergvall, Sarr
- There is enough pace in the side

Our main "specialist" player was Johnson and we sold him

This squad could play 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, 4-4-2, 3-5-2, I really struggle to see a system manager that couldn't get this to work. Quality wise I think CF, another midfielder and likely GK (if you want a passing keeper) would be obvious upgrades but not sure I buy the x manager wouldn't work because we don't have players that could make that system work (as vs. say United, who clearly didn't have the backline for Amorim's 3atb, or 2 DMs, or any pace/legs in midfield for that system)

Problem is, it's not about the system on paper anymore, it's about how you implement it on the pitch. For instance, VDV and Romero are, in my opinion, ill-suited to a low block: they're not that great in the air and their concentration is suspect at times.

Likewise, we don't really have the passing ability in this squad to play on the break - something that requires a lot of quality in terms of off the ball movement and execution. Hiring Mourinho or Conte now would be a disaster, for instance. Ironically, I think Frank is trying to work around that the same way Postecoglou did, trying to recover the ball as high as possible.

A high-intensity pressing requires mobile and fit players (as well as a basic plan, but that's another matter).

That's where we disagree: you seem to think we have a good all-round squad that could fit in with any system. I think it's unbalanced and lacks any defining quality, bar maybe for a decent ability to run with the ball. Unfortunately, you need to play with a high defensive line to get the best out of VDV and Romero (in my opinion), which pretty much negates the need for ball carriers since there's fewer spaces to run into, and our players don't have the stamina for a Barcelona-style press.

That's why so many people regret Postecoglou: the squad is obviously a better (albeit far from perfect) fit for his brand of football. For someone like Frank, it would take a huge compromise (give up on the mid/low block) to get anything out of these players. Whoever comes next will have the same issues but the football might at least be easier on the eye.

 

[Bullet]

Likewise, we don't really have the passing ability in this squad to play on the break - something that requires a lot of quality in terms of off the ball movement and execution.

Hi Goggles, apologies for snipping up your post. I was thinking that a team like Emirates Marketing Project (dominate the ball, high press, keep you stuck in your own half) have more need of passing ability and off the ball movement. And Frank is FAR from that tactic.
I'm not sure Frank even knows his own tactics at this point, sometimes we high press and "go man man" as he likes to say, but we rooster that up and give it up after a few minutes, then go into this passive narrow defensive shape that allowed Villa to take their time and simply pass straight through us with nobody engaging. Christ that was bad.

Unfortunately, you need to play with a high defensive line to get the best out of VDV and Romero (in my opinion), which pretty much negates the need for ball carriers since there's fewer spaces to run into

VdV is SUPER fast when chasing back, that I can agree with, but I expect he would get a lot of hamstring injuries doing that all game, at which point we bring in Danso and Dragusin and the high line is not such a great idea.


I think I would be clearer (happier??) with Frank doing one or the other i.e. if we go for a super deep defensive block with 16 centre backs and tell Muani/Solanke to stay in the centre circle until we ping the ball at them.... OR if we push up super high and "go man man" and run around like crazy people all game and make 5 stamina subs at 60 minutes and tell them to run around even faster.

Seems like he's doing a bit of nothing... if we go 2 behind we naturally push forwards a bit and the oppo naturally sit back a bit, so it looks good then. Or if we go 1 ahead we start to sit off and wait for them to equalise at which point we are in disarray.

 

[Raziel]

Problem is, it's not about the system on paper anymore, it's about how you implement it on the pitch. For instance, VDV and Romero are, in my opinion, ill-suited to a low block: they're not that great in the air and their concentration is suspect at times.

Likewise, we don't really have the passing ability in this squad to play on the break - something that requires a lot of quality in terms of off the ball movement and execution. Hiring Mourinho or Conte now would be a disaster, for instance. Ironically, I think Frank is trying to work around that the same way Postecoglou did, trying to recover the ball as high as possible.

A high-intensity pressing requires mobile and fit players (as well as a basic plan, but that's another matter).

That's where we disagree: you seem to think we have a good all-round squad that could fit in with any system. I think it's unbalanced and lacks any defining quality, bar maybe for a decent ability to run with the ball. Unfortunately, you need to play with a high defensive line to get the best out of VDV and Romero (in my opinion), which pretty much negates the need for ball carriers since there's fewer spaces to run into, and our players don't have the stamina for a Barcelona-style press.

That's why so many people regret Postecoglou: the squad is obviously a better (albeit far from perfect) fit for his brand of football. For someone like Frank, it would take a huge compromise (give up on the mid/low block) to get anything out of these players. Whoever comes next will have the same issues but the football might at least be easier on the eye.

So, just to start with, thanks for the response, well thought out and did give me something to think about.

I still think it's a little more flexible than you think, e.g. you talk about the back line, well you have VDV, Romero, Danso & Dragusin, you could play 3 atb (Romero would be well suited to the step out role), you could punt VDV to LB, you could swap Danso in if you want more air cover. I'd argue the core of the team is physicality (a lot of physical players, pretty big side overall minus a couple), we should have plenty of running in the team and we should have the stamina for a press (I think the PL is ill suited for permanent press, more mid block with controlled triggers for a high press)

We do lack balance (I agree) and we lack an elite player or system to build around (I think that drives your defining quality issue. Yes Ange would probably enjoy having Kudus/Gallagher/Paulhinha in his squad more than Frank does.

But that goes back to Frank, what is he trying to do? e.g. is he trying to get use of the width (we have wingers/AMs who can play wide), is he trying to build around Xavi? is he trying to press. Really (and if you see something else, I'd be fascinated) it seems his strategy is mid block that transitions to a super deep block under pressure), hump the ball to Kudus, he tries to take on his man, if he can't, back pass to Porro, huge booming cross into box to 1 CF, and my huge worry is that's what we want to do on the left. The video I posted earlier shows basic gaps in coaching, not player skill/capability, positioning, off the ball movement, understanding opposition passing lanes, that's not on the squad, not at this level.

And here's where I really worry, everyone thinks the issue with the team is no passer, yet we have gone out and got a LB, Bentancur goes down, we get a similar profile CM, that tells me two things, not sure Frank is looking for a passer, and the lack of forward passing is a design not flaw, I fundamentally (guess this is back to difference in squad evaluation) don't believe this squad is capable of only 11 progressive passes in 21 games (and Bentancur's passing numbers in previous years to this one as e.g. kind of backs that up).

 

[Muttley]

So, just to start with, thanks for the response, well thought out and did give me something to think about.

I still think it's a little more flexible than you think, e.g. you talk about the back line, well you have VDV, Romero, Danso & Dragusin, you could play 3 atb (Romero would be well suited to the step out role), you could punt VDV to LB, you could swap Danso in if you want more air cover. I'd argue the core of the team is physicality (a lot of physical players, pretty big side overall minus a couple), we should have plenty of running in the team and we should have the stamina for a press (I think the PL is ill suited for permanent press, more mid block with controlled triggers for a high press)

We do lack balance (I agree) and we lack an elite player or system to build around (I think that drives your defining quality issue. Yes Ange would probably enjoy having Kudus/Gallagher/Paulhinha in his squad more than Frank does.

But that goes back to Frank, what is he trying to do? e.g. is he trying to get use of the width (we have wingers/AMs who can play wide), is he trying to build around Xavi? is he trying to press. Really (and if you see something else, I'd be fascinated) it seems his strategy is mid block that transitions to a super deep block under pressure), hump the ball to Kudus, he tries to take on his man, if he can't, back pass to Porro, huge booming cross into box to 1 CF, and my huge worry is that's what we want to do on the left. The video I posted earlier shows basic gaps in coaching, not player skill/capability, positioning, off the ball movement, understanding opposition passing lanes, that's not on the squad, not at this level.

And here's where I really worry, everyone thinks the issue with the team is no passer, yet we have gone out and got a LB, Bentancur goes down, we get a similar profile CM, that tells me two things, not sure Frank is looking for a passer, and the lack of forward passing is a design not flaw, I fundamentally (guess this is back to difference in squad evaluation) don't believe this squad is capable of only 11 progressive passes in 21 games (and Bentancur's passing numbers in previous years to this one as e.g. kind of backs that up).

I also don't agree with the "Romero AND VDV" aren't suited to one system of the other. They are different defenders. I would rather VDV hones his defensive skills to Romero's levels. Romero is way more comfortable in a defence that isn't held on the half way line. I'm not saying he wants to be parked on the 18 yard box like Toby and Dawson were at the end of their careers. That was a disaster. Romero is happy to push up but he's no sprinter and shouldn't be on the half way line. VDV can be on the half way line but he needs to start finding the RIGHT position to be in when he's a little deeper. Ultimately, it's about optimising their different strengths into a great partnership.

The interesting perspective is that we do talk about Romero and VDV as a very good if not great partnership. However, they've operated in defences that concede over 60 goals each season. This is where I don't think Frank has done a bad job so far. He's worked hard to find the happy medium and 27 goals conceded in 21 games isn't a disaster. It tracks to about 48/49 goals over a league season. That is, if it stays at these levels.

Ultimately, I believe Frank is teaching his players how to operate differently in the different phases of the games. Sometimes it will be a higher defensive line. Other phases, we will drop deeper. Because of our form, it's probably over-rotated to a more defensive setup than Frank will ultimately want. It's nmow how he adjusts the dials based on player availability. If we do land Gallagher, that might add a bit more versatility into the mix.

 

[billyiddo]

I don't believe this squad is capable of only 11 progressive passes in 21 games

Where are you getting that number from?