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Thomas Frank - Head Coach

I'm here mate, though I mainly lurk these days.

Fact is, Frank isn't the problem. Give him enough time and he'll look better, only because nearly any coach looks better once he's given time. And he's a good bloke - humble and truthful, which always counts for something in my book.

Whether his system has much upside beyond, say, 10th-12th every year - that's still to be decided, given his high water-mark at Brentford was finishing midtable.

But ultimately, keep Frank or sack Frank, neither will really fix the hole we're in. Only money can fix that - moving on poor players and buying good ones, in positions that make sense, to keep the squad constantly improving, getting better.

What has happened at Spurs has been the opposite - starting from the high water-mark in 2017, our approach has been to consistently buy backups and downgrades to the players we used to have, and then watch as those players became starters and the older, better players left.

Walker -> Aurier -> Doherty -> Porro,
Kane -> Richy,
Son-> Tel/Odobert,
Eriksen -> Lo Celso -> Maddison -> now Simons,
Dembele->Sissoko/Winks-> Ndombele -> Hojbjerg -> Bentancur/Palhinha,
Lloris -> Vicario,

...and so on.

In each case, a better player was replaced by a worse one, who ended up becoming our starter. It's rare a player now even remotely compares to the Poch team of 16-17 - not even a decade ago. Because of the above cycle.

Take Udogie as an example. He's a sicknote, and on/off when he does play. It's clear we need a second left-back to rotate with him, possibly even replace him.

But those players cost money and wages - first-team left backs won't leave their clubs to compete with Udogie without being paid, and we don't pay wages to get them.

So we settle on instead buying a backup to plug the gap when he's out, who obviously won't be as good, but (typically) whom we hope can come good over time - so, a youngster. This window's version seems to be that Brazilian kid Souza. When he's put in, standards will inevitably fall, just because he's raw and untested. And thus the standards are lowered to a new baseline, and the cycle begins again.

Whereas, imagine if we went and got a starter to challenge Udogie instead - if Udogie can't cut it, he drops to the bench, simple as. A top-class left-back.

The opposite happens. Standards rise. Everyone around the club gets a lift - players know they have to perform or lose their place. Managers have options to pick. Suddenly the club looks ambitious again.

Do this enough times and you have a virtuous cycle. No player can take his place for granted, the squad is full of talent, and basically any manager can succeed - this is exactly what happened at Woolwich, and they're going to win the league because of it.

Until I see us engaging in that sort of behaviour, I don't expect anything to change mate. And so I don't get annoyed about it any more - it's plain as day to see our direction, and until it changes, I won't let my mental health be destroyed by agonizing over it. These days it hurts a little less when we lose than it used to, and that's worth something. To me, at least.

Hard to argue with this take in general. Although I’d say that you’re being slightly harsh on Porro!

I also think we’ve done well in recruiting our defenders generally. I think Udogie was a reasonable effort to replace Rose and Davies. Ditto Romero and VDV for Jan and Toby. It’s also hard for anyone to replace Kane and Son.

That said, your point is fair. Were we just incredibly lucky to hit upon Kane and Son? Did Poch just do an incredible job developing them and the rest that would be hard to replicate? Does the club have the ambition to really get back there again? Is Frank or anyone capable of developing this squad to that level? Are we going to spend.

It does look bleak right now. Actually amazing that we find ourselves in this spot after making a change to ensure the league form was much improved! I wonder what Romero is really getting at.
 
Hard to argue with this take in general. Although I’d say that you’re being slightly harsh on Porro!

I also think we’ve done well in recruiting our defenders generally. I think Udogie was a reasonable effort to replace Rose and Davies. Ditto Romero and VDV for Jan and Toby. It’s also hard for anyone to replace Kane and Son.

For sure mate. I caveated my assessment with that bit about it being rare that a player compares to his 16-17 equivalent - because Romero and Van de Ven, in my eyes, come reasonably close to Toby-Verts, even if they're not at that level on the whole.

But on Udogie, I think he's an illustration of my point. He was 2022's Souza-equivalent - a youngster bought because Davies and (at the time) Perisic were our wing-backs, and both were aging. He became a first team starter as Perisic left and Davies declined. Then he became a crock, likely due to being overplayed. But our replacement for him? An ageing Ben Davies. And now, possibly another kid, Souza, with even less experience than Udogie had at his age. The standards have fallen far from the days of Rose-Davies.

That said, your point is fair. Were we just incredibly lucky to hit upon Kane and Son? Did Poch just do an incredible job developing them and the rest that would be hard to replicate? Does the club have the ambition to really get back there again? Is Frank or anyone capable of developing this squad to that level? Are we going to spend.

I think we were lucky to hit upon Kane, for sure. He's a once in a century-type player - we will likely not see a player as good come through our ranks for decades.

But Son wasn't magic - he was the product of good scouting and good coaching. Sonny was part of that period of our transfers under Edwards / early Paul Mitchell when nearly every other one was a hit - Toby, Sonny, Wanyama, Dier, Dele (though that last one was more Pleat). And before that, the spine of the side was built in the late Redknapp/AVB-era - Verts, Lloris, Dembele, Walker. Yes there was that scattershot Baldini era in between, And then there were some misses (Fazio, Stambouli, N'jie, N'koudou, Janssen, etc.), but it was nearly a 1 in 2 hit rate, which is amazing by football standards.

It takes good scouting, good analytics, and good timing. All of those things, in the modern day, are expensive -teams nowadays have analytics divisions of dozens of people to run the numbers, sometimes hundreds. Brentford and Brighton both have fully-owned companies doing this for them, using proprietary databases and IP.

I don't see us operating in that way. Nor do I see us spending the money to succeed a different way, by buying proven talent. Instead we seem to muddle in between - we don't pay high wages, but we pay high transfer fees, to sign mostly middling players.
 
As a philosophy and way of being, it eternally works for me. If you want another approach, pray for some Petro-dollared fudgeheads to storm in and sportwash viaus, because as far as I can see (with the passable exception of Liverpool) those teams have swept up for approximately two decades (the only time those clams Leicester did anything BTW was when they firmly bent the rules).
What did Leicester do? I either removed it from memory or I don't know!
 
I'm here mate, though I mainly lurk these days.

Fact is, Frank isn't the problem. Give him enough time and he'll look better, only because nearly any coach looks better once he's given time. And he's a good bloke - humble and truthful, which always counts for something in my book.

Whether his system has much upside beyond, say, 10th-12th every year - that's still to be decided, given his high water-mark at Brentford was finishing midtable.

But ultimately, keep Frank or sack Frank, neither will really fix the hole we're in. Only money can fix that - moving on poor players and buying good ones, in positions that make sense, to keep the squad constantly improving, getting better.

What has happened at Spurs has been the opposite - starting from the high water-mark in 2017, our approach has been to consistently buy backups and downgrades to the players we used to have, and then watch as those players became starters and the older, better players left.

Walker -> Aurier -> Doherty -> Porro,
Kane -> Richy,
Son-> Tel/Odobert,
Eriksen -> Lo Celso -> Maddison -> now Simons,
Dembele->Sissoko/Winks-> Ndombele -> Hojbjerg -> Bentancur/Palhinha,
Lloris -> Vicario,

...and so on.

In each case, a better player was replaced by a worse one, who ended up becoming our starter. It's rare a player now even remotely compares to the Poch team of 16-17 - not even a decade ago. Because of the above cycle.

Take Udogie as an example. He's a sicknote, and on/off when he does play. It's clear we need a second left-back to rotate with him, possibly even replace him.

But those players cost money and wages - first-team left backs won't leave their clubs to compete with Udogie without being paid, and we don't pay wages to get them.

So we settle on instead buying a backup to plug the gap when he's out, who obviously won't be as good, but (typically) whom we hope can come good over time - so, a youngster. This window's version seems to be that Brazilian kid Souza. When he's put in, standards will inevitably fall, just because he's raw and untested. And thus the standards are lowered to a new baseline, and the cycle begins again.

Whereas, imagine if we went and got a starter to challenge Udogie instead - if Udogie can't cut it, he drops to the bench, simple as. A top-class left-back.

The opposite happens. Standards rise. Everyone around the club gets a lift - players know they have to perform or lose their place. Managers have options to pick. Suddenly the club looks ambitious again.

Do this enough times and you have a virtuous cycle. No player can take his place for granted, the squad is full of talent, and basically any manager can succeed - this is exactly what happened at Woolwich, and they're going to win the league because of it.

Until I see us engaging in that sort of behaviour, I don't expect anything to change mate. And so I don't get annoyed about it any more - it's plain as day to see our direction, and until it changes, I won't let my mental health be destroyed by agonizing over it. These days it hurts a little less when we lose than it used to, and that's worth something. To me, at least.
Spot on.
 
They’re internationals for Spain, Argentina, The Netherlands and England though. You don’t play for those countries without being very good. Fair enough, Porro hasn’t been a regular in the squad and nor has Spence but they are good players.

The CBs are excellent players too. Fair enough, they have faults but not so long ago, I saw a post on here saying they were probably better than Jan and Toby (they are good but absolutely aren’t better than the Belgians) and last year you couldn’t move for the comments on here about how Ange not having them was the reason for our bad defensive record.
They are not bloody excellent. What is it with an of these superfluous wording when it comes to describing our players. Baresi was excellent, Maldini was excellent, King was excellent, Jan & Toby were excellent. The current pair are only decent.

How a defender like VDV who was absolutely in mans land for the first goal and is so easily beaten 1 on 1 is considered excellent is beyond me.

I'll reiterate again. We have seen excellent, we have seen great defenders. We know what that looks like, at no point in Romero's 5 years or VDV 3 seasons have either them actually consistently hit those levels. A player rating isn't about some one time performance it's what you get from them week after week averaged out and what we've gotten from them in their time only averages out to decent or at a push good. Nothing more.
 
They are not bloody excellent. What is it with an of these superfluous wording when it comes to describing our players. Baresi was excellent, Maldini was excellent, King was excellent, Jan & Toby were excellent. The current pair are only decent.

How a defender like VDV who was absolutely in mans land for the first goal and is so easily beaten 1 on 1 is considered excellent is beyond me.

I'll reiterate again. We have seen excellent, we have seen great defenders. We know what that looks like, at no point in Romero's 5 years or VDV 3 seasons have either them actually consistently hit those levels. A player rating isn't about some one time performance it's what you get from them week after week averaged out and what we've gotten from them in their time only averages out to decent or at a push good. Nothing more.
it's called opinion just because you disagree doesn't make others with a differing opinions wrong. For what it's worth i think they are very good
 
typical response, with no alternative plan - so what do you think we should do? don't just slam me and then have no feedback, that's just lazy. If we don't give managers time, how can we see how things will pan out? remember when we had conte and we lost in europe to a managerless small club who's manager was in jail? did the structure support him then? which manager do you want in? Poch aint available till at least after the world cup, and would we support him 'properly'? Glassner is also defensive, iraola? also finding things tough even without european footy? seems like we'd gamble with anyone we take in - were you Ange in or out ? He was full on attacking. I talked to fans when we were routinely losing in the league but in the final of the europa, with all those injuries, still wanted him out. We just have no time for anyone, no commitment. We won't go for a Pep, even a Klopp but we might get lucky with a Poch style - however the reality is the top people are in with TF, who is an intelligent man but I think he sees we aren't good enough to be a possession team, or an attacking team who can also defend well, that's the crux of it for me. Build from the back going forward
No I wasn't an Ange fan, and believe he should have gone at the end of the first season. The fact is we are sitting 14th with a squad that is probably top 6, and there is only one reason for that. He attacks the fans, and now drinks out of Arsenal branded cups. He can set up the team to draw, but when he attempts to actually win a game we lose. His level was Brentford, and that's where he should be. I wasn't Frank out until the Bournemouth game, but I believe he can actually get us relegated. West Ham will be a 6 pointer now

As far as a replacement, I certainly don't want Poch, so it's down to the club to find someone decent, who I don't know
 
it's called opinion just because you disagree doesn't make others with a differing opinions wrong. For what it's worth i think they are very good
Everyone definitely has a right to their opinion... but at the end of the day evaluations should be made on facts... and the facts are that the number of brain farts that both of them have - on a regular basis - are/were not seen by the players mentioned by @Bishop.

Take VDV - his main attribute is his speed of recovery. Ledley also had that. When you see VDV play, does his play even get close to the consistent solid defensive performances that Ledley used to churn out, week in week out; especially before his knee gave way???
 
No I wasn't an Ange fan, and believe he should have gone at the end of the first season. The fact is we are sitting 14th with a squad that is probably top 6, and there is only one reason for that. He attacks the fans, and now drinks out of Arsenal branded cups. He can set up the team to draw, but when he attempts to actually win a game we lose. His level was Brentford, and that's where he should be. I wasn't Frank out until the Bournemouth game, but I believe he can actually get us relegated. West Ham will be a 6 pointer now

As far as a replacement, I certainly don't want Poch, so it's down to the club to find someone decent, who I don't know
Seriously? Because of a cup? Is that how low we have sunk?

When did he attack the fans? I think you have him and Ange/Conte mixed up

We had three "decent" coaches before Frank... who were serial winners and won titles before and after they left us. Other than the first Conte season (and thanks mainly to Kane and Son) what did the manage in the league?
 
Everyone definitely has a right to their opinion... but at the end of the day evaluations should be made on facts... and the facts are that the number of brain farts that both of them have - on a regular basis - are/were not seen by the players mentioned by @Bishop.

Take VDV - his main attribute is his speed of recovery. Ledley also had that. When you see VDV play, does his play even get close to the consistent solid defensive performances that Ledley used to churn out, week in week out; especially before his knee gave way???
He bought up Baresi & Maldini seriously are we comparing VDV to them. No one is going to get close to king & the only players i can think of who have were Gough shame he wanted Rangers & Judas. again i think it's unfair to compare VDV to King is there anyone in the premier league right know that is better than king. in my humble opinion i think they are still very good but not Maldini, Baresi & King level if those players were available i'd definitely buy them sadly they don't exist
 
I have to say, waking up to this amount of unrest on so many fronts is unsettling. TF struggling, Cutie calling out the club, players arguing with fans. I dunno, this has a one way feel to it, and now it feels to me that we have to pull the trigger, steady the ship (again) and get us to mid table security. I was genuinely excited for TF to push us on, but now I just want us be safe. Sad state of affairs on the day one of our club legends and representative of a better era has passed away
 
Seriously? Because of a cup? Is that how low we have sunk?

When did he attack the fans? I think you have him and Ange/Conte mixed up

We had three "decent" coaches before Frank... who were serial winners and won titles before and after they left us. Other than the first Conte season (and thanks mainly to Kane and Son) what did the manage in the league?
Not that it bothered me in the slightest, but Frank did have a pop at the fans in one of his pressers at some point this season IIRC there was a bit of fuss made by some about it.....
 
I have to say, waking up to this amount of unrest on so many fronts is unsettling. TF struggling, Cutie calling out the club, players arguing with fans. I dunno, this has a one way feel to it, and now it feels to me that we have to pull the trigger, steady the ship (again) and get us to mid table security. I was genuinely excited for TF to push us on, but now I just want us be safe. Sad state of affairs on the day one of our club legends and representative of a better era has passed away
Nope give Frank the season then make an informed decision. who exactly are we going to get that is not a stop gap
 
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