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Thomas Frank - Head Coach

Muttley said:
I think a context is needed. We went into this game against a top side and a difficult place for us to travel to in recent times. We had come off 2 losses whereas they had back to back wins. If I take the outside-in approach and become a Toon fan for minute then what am I thinking. I'm probably feeling a pure dislikable admiration for Frank. It's one thing bringing that ugly Brentford side to St James Park and stifling the wotsits out of my team. Now, within a few months of taking a Spurs side with a soft core, he's done the same to them even though they'll believe they were the better team. They clearly were. As a Saudi Sportswashing Machine fan, I'd now be worried that the next time we play Spurs, they're gone be an even tougher proposition again. They will simply get better and better under Frank. I know as a Toon fan, I was lucky in the end to get that point. I'd also be wondering if, after 5 years, my club was moving forward or perhaps going a little sideways and backwards under Howe.

This period is clearly a time for patience with Frank. The next game will be fascinating. I think we need to be careful that we don't get too internalised to ourselves and not see the bigger picture.
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I agree with some of what you've said, and am interested in what you see the bigger picture as?
 
MartyFunkhouser said:
It really interests me how little carry the EC win has had TBH, including players getting personal abuse, considering they won the trophy.
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There are some (most certainly NOT me!) who talked themselves into believing we were lucky to win it/the standard of opposition was so brick how could we not/we got lucky/it was a tinpot trophy, etc, etc. I am not really surprised TBH. There are people who forget that despite a mistake, Vic has probably saved about 5 certain goals this season, and before people say 'that's his job' I am talking about elite elite saves. Booing players remains a highly egregious act to me...
 
MartyFunkhouser said:
It really interests me how little carry the EC win has had TBH, including players getting personal abuse, considering they won the trophy.
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I'd argue its largely to the manner of the win in the context of the season as a whole. It wasn't a season of great performances with the occasional disappointment, buoyed by the triumph of finally breaking our 17 year duck. It wasn't an indifferent season, salvaged by a great cup run with amazing nights and punctuated with great moments. It was an historically bad season in terms of the league campaign, filled with dreadful performances and an unflinching unwillingness to adapt to the pain, that was rounded off with a cup win that if we are honest none of us are going to look back at the actual performances and remember great moments individually other than the end result itself. There was no Ar5na1 for example or the final itself where we pummelled Chelsea (but didn't score as many as we should).

Add all of that and to another season where many of the same problems we have seen are present along with a whole raft of new ones and this season feels much like a continuation of the last 5 years, not necessarily in terms of style but in actual effectiveness. If we think of it in terms of wins and losses, especially at home nothing has changed or improved. I said this at the start of last season, each season is not in a vacuum divorced from what has come before.

Despite the EL win, last season was not a happy place and the fans expectations if anything have been reset to a higher point. There are those that felt that Ange had earnt another go at it and for them the current problems are obviously going to be given little time or sympathy, there are those that felt Ange should be fired for gross underachievement league wise and their expectations were for a rebuilt Spurs to actually challenge closer to the top of the table, again there is going to be little sympathy or room given by them for yet another manager unable to utilise his squad effectively. Then I think you do have to take into account this unrest is years in the making, years and years of poor squad building and poor managerial recruitment have left us as a fan base thats just largely unhappy with how we are run and the team will bear the brunt of that directly when the performances are so poor.

I don't think there is a solution to this other than winning games. Some will say playing better football will do it, but I think we are past that point now. The fans are not going to be happy playing great passing football that still results in losing 1-2 to Fulham at home. We need to win games at home as a minimum to win back the support of the fan base.
 
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Bishop said:
I'd argue its largely to the manner of the win in the context of the season as a whole. It wasn't a season of great performances with the occasional disappointment, buoyed by the triumph of finally breaking our 17 year duck. It wasn't an indifferent season, salvaged by a great cup run with amazing nights and punctuated with great moments. It was an historically bad season in terms of the league campaign, filled with dreadful performances and an unflinching unwillingness to adapt to the pain, that was rounded off with a cup win that if we are honest none of us are going to look back at the actual performances and remember great moments individually other than the end result itself. There was no Ar5na1 for example or the final itself where we pummelled Chelsea (but didn't score as many as we should).

Add all of that and to another season where many of the same problems we have seen are present along with a whole raft of new ones and this season feels much like a continuation of the last 5 years, not necessarily in terms of style but in actual effectiveness. If we think of it in terms of wins and losses, especially at home nothing has changed or improved. I said this at the start of last season, each season is not in a vacuum divorced from what has come before.

Despite the EL win, last season was not a happy place and the fans expectations if anything have been reset to a higher point. There are those that felt that Ange had earnt another go at it and for them the current problems are obviously going to be giving little time or sympathy, there are those that felt Ange should be fired for gross underachievement league wise and their expectations were for a rebuilt Spurs to actually challenge closer to the top of the table, again there is going to be little sympathy or room given by them for yet another manager unable to utilise his squad effectively. Then I think you do have to take into account this unrest is years in the making, years and years of poor squad building and poor managerial recruitment have left us as a fan base thats just largely unhappy with how we are run and the team will bear the brunt of that directly when the performances are so poor.

I don't think there is a solution to this other than winning games. Some will say playing better football will do it, but I think we are past that point now. The fans are not going to be happy playing great passing football that still results in losing 1-2 to Fulham at home. We need to win games at home as a minimum to win back the support of the fan base.
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Makes fairly grim reading and is fair TBH, its massively indicative of the modern view on the game

The irony of it all is, having watched abig this week through boredom and how weird the fixtures have fallen, I don't think we are as bad as made out, other than 3 teams max, the quality and style on show is near on what we are serving up.
 
Bishop said:
I'd argue its largely to the manner of the win in the context of the season as a whole. It wasn't a season of great performances with the occasional disappointment, buoyed by the triumph of finally breaking our 17 year duck. It wasn't an indifferent season, salvaged by a great cup run with amazing nights and punctuated with great moments. It was an historically bad season in terms of the league campaign, filled with dreadful performances and an unflinching unwillingness to adapt to the pain, that was rounded off with a cup win that if we are honest none of us are going to look back at the actual performances and remember great moments individually other than the end result itself. There was no Ar5na1 for example or the final itself where we pummelled Chelsea (but didn't score as many as we should).

Add all of that and to another season where many of the same problems we have seen are present along with a whole raft of new ones and this season feels much like a continuation of the last 5 years, not necessarily in terms of style but in actual effectiveness. If we think of it in terms of wins and losses, especially at home nothing has changed or improved. I said this at the start of last season, each season is not in a vacuum divorced from what has come before.

Despite the EL win, last season was not a happy place and the fans expectations if anything have been reset to a higher point. There are those that felt that Ange had earnt another go at it and for them the current problems are obviously going to be giving little time or sympathy, there are those that felt Ange should be fired for gross underachievement league wise and their expectations were for a rebuilt Spurs to actually challenge closer to the top of the table, again there is going to be little sympathy or room given by them for yet another manager unable to utilise his squad effectively. Then I think you do have to take into account this unrest is years in the making, years and years of poor squad building and poor managerial recruitment have left us as a fan base thats just largely unhappy with how we are run and the team will bear the brunt of that directly when the performances are so poor.

I don't think there is a solution to this other than winning games. Some will say playing better football will do it, but I think we are past that point now. The fans are not going to be happy playing great passing football that still results in losing 1-2 to Fulham at home. We need to win games at home as a minimum to win back the support of the fan base.
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Fair assessment Bish....it probably all starts with the heady heights and splendid football under Poch...that set the standard, set the bar, set the expectations. Hence the itch to get him back every 12 months.

Like many clubs though, a great manager comes along once in a while. The thing to except, is that's the exception, not the rule. History shows us that. United just can't get anywhere near Sir Alex and it's taken a while for Arsenal to bounce back after Wenger. But for fans, we remember the good times. And that's what we want. It appears that one night in Bilbao has barely shifted the needle.
 
MartyFunkhouser said:
Makes fairly grim reading and is fair TBH, its massively indicative of the modern view on the game

The irony of it all is, having watched abig this week through boredom and how weird the fixtures have fallen, I don't think we are as bad as made out, other than 3 teams max, the quality and style on show is near on what we are serving up.
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Yeah, results are all over the place. Quality is random.
 
billyiddo said:
Won a trophy, Levy finally left - we should be topping that table
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MartyFunkhouser said:
It really interests me how little carry the EC win has had TBH, including players getting personal abuse, considering they won the trophy.
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You both raise good points...i suspect the fact that Arsenal look like running away with the league atm has a big part of where we are in that happiness table...
 
glorygloryeze said:
You both raise good points...i suspect the fact that Arsenal look like running away with the league atm has a big part of where we are in that happiness table...
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Goes against all I red on here that I have read TBH and as Bedford says, worrying that people would be down on our own recent achievements because of them down the road. Such is life
 
Bedfordspurs said:
That’s worrying if we have people focussed on others more…, but likely true
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I don't know one Spurs fan who is ranting about the Goons, they are only really moaning about what we are doing. Other than the odd year they are always ahead of us, they've actually won leagues before (rather than just looking like they will after a 14 games) and things weren't as toxic as they are now.

Obviously we don't want them to win the league but our fans would not be a bunch of happy campers regardless of what that lot are doing....
 
harr1984 said:
I don't know one Spurs fan who is ranting about the Goons, they are only really moaning about what we are doing. Other than the odd year they are always ahead of us, they've actually won leagues before (rather than just looking like they will after a 14 games) and things weren't as toxic as they are now.

Obviously we don't want them to win the league but our fans would not be a bunch of happy campers regardless of what that lot are doing....
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My spurs WhatsApp group (about 10) is always going on about how good the Goons look this season, how they’re going to walk the league and we’re brick!
Can’t believe I’m the only one seeing this?
 
Gazza Dazzla said:
My spurs WhatsApp group (about 10) is always going on about how good the Goons look this season, how they’re going to walk the league and we’re brick!
Can’t believe I’m the only one seeing this?
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Loads of it about, I don't think its the main source of the toxicity, but it don't help none.

We have been Toxic for a while though, its not on Frank, not fully. We won the EC and Levy has gone, but its as toxic now as its been and more, fans just are not happy unless they are having a go at someone, I mean booing Porro and Vicario on the ball is bu11brick behaviour after they were part of the EC win in my opinion but we have form for it, so thats not on Frank (thats not me defending Frank either its just a history of facts).

I honestly believe that we are seeing a crescendo, whats come at the end of a period of negativity of years of fans protesting, the social media input of bile, the "we can't support the team in this area of the stadium" and the "I don't pay this much to watch this" combined with what is Franks fault, a less than convincing start.

I also think many grown men foolishly thought Levy leaving was the cure all and a switch would be hit

But this Toxicity has been boiling for a few years now, to deny it is not having seen it IMO
 
Gazza Dazzla said:
My spurs WhatsApp group (about 10) is always going on about how good the Goons look this season, how they’re going to walk the league and we’re brick!
Can’t believe I’m the only one seeing this?
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Yeah of course, I mean in the sense of what is really upsetting my mates - There is far more ranting about how brick we are, that's just the icing on the cake. If the Goons were midtable they would still be ranting about how brick we are and not enjoying it.

Whoever said about Poch is far closer to the truth IMO, he elevated us to beyond the level we really are and we've never come close to going back there....
 
Bishop said:
I'd argue its largely to the manner of the win in the context of the season as a whole. It wasn't a season of great performances with the occasional disappointment, buoyed by the triumph of finally breaking our 17 year duck. It wasn't an indifferent season, salvaged by a great cup run with amazing nights and punctuated with great moments. It was an historically bad season in terms of the league campaign, filled with dreadful performances and an unflinching unwillingness to adapt to the pain, that was rounded off with a cup win that if we are honest none of us are going to look back at the actual performances and remember great moments individually other than the end result itself. There was no Ar5na1 for example or the final itself where we pummelled Chelsea (but didn't score as many as we should).

Add all of that and to another season where many of the same problems we have seen are present along with a whole raft of new ones and this season feels much like a continuation of the last 5 years, not necessarily in terms of style but in actual effectiveness. If we think of it in terms of wins and losses, especially at home nothing has changed or improved. I said this at the start of last season, each season is not in a vacuum divorced from what has come before.

Despite the EL win, last season was not a happy place and the fans expectations if anything have been reset to a higher point. There are those that felt that Ange had earnt another go at it and for them the current problems are obviously going to be giving little time or sympathy, there are those that felt Ange should be fired for gross underachievement league wise and their expectations were for a rebuilt Spurs to actually challenge closer to the top of the table, again there is going to be little sympathy or room given by them for yet another manager unable to utilise his squad effectively. Then I think you do have to take into account this unrest is years in the making, years and years of poor squad building and poor managerial recruitment have left us as a fan base thats just largely unhappy with how we are run and the team will bear the brunt of that directly when the performances are so poor.

I don't think there is a solution to this other than winning games. Some will say playing better football will do it, but I think we are past that point now. The fans are not going to be happy playing great passing football that still results in losing 1-2 to Fulham at home. We need to win games at home as a minimum to win back the support of the fan base.
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This.

Winning a trophy is great but much like those 2 most recent League Cups the lustre wears off when the team keep losing week after week after week.

The fact that we’ve lost as many PL home games as we’ve won over the past 2.5 years is certainly not going to be conducive to an electrifying atmosphere…

IMG_5106.jpeg

For all their faults, at least WHL was a fortress back under the reigns of Conte and Mourinho…

IMG_5107.jpeg
 
Bishop said:
I'd argue its largely to the manner of the win in the context of the season as a whole. It wasn't a season of great performances with the occasional disappointment, buoyed by the triumph of finally breaking our 17 year duck. It wasn't an indifferent season, salvaged by a great cup run with amazing nights and punctuated with great moments. It was an historically bad season in terms of the league campaign, filled with dreadful performances and an unflinching unwillingness to adapt to the pain, that was rounded off with a cup win that if we are honest none of us are going to look back at the actual performances and remember great moments individually other than the end result itself. There was no Ar5na1 for example or the final itself where we pummelled Chelsea (but didn't score as many as we should).

Add all of that and to another season where many of the same problems we have seen are present along with a whole raft of new ones and this season feels much like a continuation of the last 5 years, not necessarily in terms of style but in actual effectiveness. If we think of it in terms of wins and losses, especially at home nothing has changed or improved. I said this at the start of last season, each season is not in a vacuum divorced from what has come before.

Despite the EL win, last season was not a happy place and the fans expectations if anything have been reset to a higher point. There are those that felt that Ange had earnt another go at it and for them the current problems are obviously going to be giving little time or sympathy, there are those that felt Ange should be fired for gross underachievement league wise and their expectations were for a rebuilt Spurs to actually challenge closer to the top of the table, again there is going to be little sympathy or room given by them for yet another manager unable to utilise his squad effectively. Then I think you do have to take into account this unrest is years in the making, years and years of poor squad building and poor managerial recruitment have left us as a fan base thats just largely unhappy with how we are run and the team will bear the brunt of that directly when the performances are so poor.

I don't think there is a solution to this other than winning games. Some will say playing better football will do it, but I think we are past that point now. The fans are not going to be happy playing great passing football that still results in losing 1-2 to Fulham at home. We need to win games at home as a minimum to win back the support of the fan base.
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For sure great passing football leading to the same results as we've had so far wouldn't be enough to make people happy. But I think overall there would be more positivity about that than what we're seeing now.

Also the case though that great passing football probably would have helped us win more games.
 
SteveAWOL said:
This.

Winning a trophy is great but much like those 2 most recent League Cups the lustre wears off when the team keep losing week after week after week.

The fact that we’ve lost as many PL home games as we’ve won over the past 2.5 years is certainly not going to be conducive to an electrifying atmosphere…

View attachment 20946

For all their faults, at least WHL was a fortress back under the reigns of Conte and Mourinho…

View attachment 20947
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Yep, the home form contributes to the feeling and its been happening for a LONG time.
 
braineclipse said:
For sure great passing football leading to the same results as we've had so far wouldn't be enough to make people happy. But I think overall there would be more positivity about that than what we're seeing now.

Also the case though that great passing football probably would have helped us win more games.
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You need the players to play great passing football first - i haven't seen that since 2017/18, so no evidence to suggest these players are capable of that. We certainly didn't play great passing football last season or the one prior with the bulk of this squad.
 
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