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Trans stuff

LutonSpurs said:
Insignificant number considering. The noise around this and the actual people impacted does not make any sense to anyone who looks at this properly
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You’re looking at it the wrong way or from the wrong angle IMO. The number of people doesn’t really matter. Either you think sport should be about fairness above all else or you don’t is my belief.
 
So, Pope Leo.

Oh, no sorry - this is the men in dresses who aren't actually threats to children thread isn't it.
 
news.sky.com

AB Hernandez: The 16-year-old transgender girl at heart of sports row in California

President Trump has threatened to withdraw federal funding from California over transgender high school athlete AB Hernandez, who qualified for the state championship meet.
news.sky.com news.sky.com

The abuse trans athletes get is wrong and it needs to be condemned on all fronts. I feel like the authorities and governing bodies of the particular sports have let everyone down here by being spineless. Seems like we’re overcomplicating things, just create an open/trans category.
 
I see Gavin Newsom has hopped on board the common sense train and has said it’s unfair for trans athletes to compete against women. NBC had a poll recently where 75% of Americans disagree with trans participation in sports, including two thirds of democrat voters. But the actual democratic politicians just double down and won’t shift with the public opinion with the exception of Newsom and others like Seth Moulton. Such a weird hill for the democrats to die on given how out of touch their stance is with the general public.
 
Jurgen the German said:
I see Gavin Newsom has hopped on board the common sense train and has said it’s unfair for trans athletes to compete against women. NBC had a poll recently where 75% of Americans disagree with trans participation in sports, including two thirds of democrat voters. But the actual democratic politicians just double down and won’t shift with the public opinion with the exception of Newsom and others like Seth Moulton. Such a weird hill for the democrats to die on given how out of touch their stance is with the general public.
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Disagreeing with trans participation in sports is a pretty wild take, it's probably worth being more acccurate with your wording when talking about controversial subjects.

It is curious how much this stuff plays on your mind as you post about it a lot (but fair enough as it's at least in the right thread and you can post about whatever you like). The common sense train is merely whatever you reckon at that time, so I'm not sure that phrase is particularly helpful to the general discourse either.

I'm interested in the pre / post of male puberty argument because I work at a sports facility where as far as I can see, at least up until the U15 age groups, the football sessions are open to both sexes. I honestly don't know when it becomes mandatory to separate it out to mens / ladies. But then if I heard there was contact sparring between biological males and females at a boxing club for youths, that would immediately seem like more of an issue. I'm trying to work out if that is some kind of internalised sexism, but that does just seem like dare I say it, common sense.
 
spurspinter1 said:
Disagreeing with trans participation in sports is a pretty wild take, it's probably worth being more acccurate with your wording when talking about controversial subjects.

It is curious how much this stuff plays on your mind as you post about it a lot (but fair enough as it's at least in the right thread and you can post about whatever you like). The common sense train is merely whatever you reckon at that time, so I'm not sure that phrase is particularly helpful to the general discourse either.

I'm interested in the pre / post of male puberty argument because I work at a sports facility where as far as I can see, at least up until the U15 age groups, the football sessions are open to both sexes. I honestly don't know when it becomes mandatory to separate it out to mens / ladies. But then if I heard there was contact sparring between biological males and females at a boxing club for youths, that would immediately seem like more of an issue. I'm trying to work out if that is some kind of internalised sexism, but that does just seem like dare I say it, common sense.
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Sorry that was trans participation in women’s sports, my mistake.

Your right it does play on my mind as I am a lover of sports in general and fairness has always been something I have felt is incredibly important, not just in sport but sport is something I have a huge interest in. It’s a massive time waste and GHod knows how much free time I’d have if I didn’t watch a sport but I digress.

Given that 70-80% of the public feel a certain way about it, I just find it odd that so many democrats in America and most people in the public eye in the uk want to die on this hill when it goes against public opinion. And it’s left to the likes of Martina Navratilova and Sharron Davies to speak up for fairness in women’s sports because I can only assume most athletes who aren’t retired are too afraid to stick their neck out.
 
Jurgen the German said:
Sorry that was trans participation in women’s sports, my mistake.

Your right it does play on my mind as I am a lover of sports in general and fairness has always been something I have felt is incredibly important, not just in sport but sport is something I have a huge interest in. It’s a massive time waste and GHod knows how much free time I’d have if I didn’t watch a sport but I digress.

Given that 70-80% of the public feel a certain way about it, I just find it odd that so many democrats in America and most people in the public eye in the uk want to die on this hill when it goes against public opinion. And it’s left to the likes of Martina Navratilova and Sharron Davies to speak up for fairness in women’s sports because I can only assume most athletes who aren’t retired are too afraid to stick their neck out.
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It's just their usual culture war nonsense, it helps them feel superior.
 
Jurgen the German said:
Sorry that was trans participation in women’s sports, my mistake.

Your right it does play on my mind as I am a lover of sports in general and fairness has always been something I have felt is incredibly important, not just in sport but sport is something I have a huge interest in. It’s a massive time waste and GHod knows how much free time I’d have if I didn’t watch a sport but I digress.

Given that 70-80% of the public feel a certain way about it, I just find it odd that so many democrats in America and most people in the public eye in the uk want to die on this hill when it goes against public opinion. And it’s left to the likes of Martina Navratilova and Sharron Davies to speak up for fairness in women’s sports because I can only assume most athletes who aren’t retired are too afraid to stick their neck out.
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Not sure it helps to just paraphrase your original post whilst namechecking a few tennis players but again, all power to you.

To put it bluntly, what i percieve is vibes of someone who wasn't bothered about women's sport until you got pulled into this rabbit hole. Maybe I am miles off the mark and you have been an active and vocal component of women's sport this entire time, I would sincerely love that to be the case! But do me a favour and try to openly evaluate your own interest in this, before 1998 were you out protesting for women's professional boxing to become legal? Are you aware of women's football being more popular post ww2 and the fragile male authorities clamping down because that just didn't seem right because, well they're women who just shouldn't be on the pitch, it's not becoming of a lady is it?

What exactly is fair in sport anyway? One kid in an U15s session is about a foot taller than everyone else and he's stocky as well, so everyone (boys and girls included) bounce off him. Is that fair? If the lad injures someone should we clutch our handbags and say it's common sense that we need to change the rules? Maybe we need to separate football out into height / weight categories to ensure a level playing field. Where is the line, as ever I'm just thinking out loud, I am fully aware I don't have the solution. If we made sports as safe as they could absolutely be, there wouldn't be any physical contact, any running, any risk of injury. On the opposite side to that, as south park eloquently and sensitively put across : If you've got a bare knuckle boxing competition and some bloke called Steve decides to become Stephanie for a day or two to absolutely dominate the women's category, that's not really great either.

As a complete aside (tbf a partial one as it's all linked), I wonder how much transphobia is born out of men conflicted about finding a biological male attractive, trans porn being rather popular in places that are the most intolerant of trans or queer communities. Those who display the kind of hatred who get their fill behind closed doors aren't exactly going to pipe up and say "Ah yeah maybe the reason I've jumped on this bandwagon because these people have made me question my sexuality". It's like* that video with Jon Stewart interviewing some politician about the supposed dangers of drag performers, whilst shrugging their shoulders at the actual real life gun issue that is the leading killer of kids.

*I should say it's not exactly like that, it's not necessarily helpful to conflate drag / cross dressing/ transgender into one big thing as I have sort of done in my above post.
 
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spurspinter1 said:
Not sure it helps to just paraphrase your original post whilst namechecking a few tennis players but again, all power to you.

To put it bluntly, what i percieve is vibes of someone who wasn't bothered about women's sport until you got pulled into this rabbit hole. Maybe I am miles off the mark and you have been an active and vocal component of women's sport this entire time, I would sincerely love that to be the case! But do me a favour and try to openly evaluate your own interest in this, before 1998 were you out protesting for women's professional boxing to become legal? Are you aware of women's football being more popular post ww2 and the fragile male authorities clamping down because that just didn't seem right because, well they're women who just shouldn't be on the pitch, it's not becoming of a lady is it?

What exactly is fair in sport anyway? One kid in an U15s session is about a foot taller than everyone else and he's stocky as well, so everyone (boys and girls included) bounce off him. Is that fair? If the lad injures someone should we clutch our handbags and say it's common sense that we need to change the rules? Maybe we need to separate football out into height / weight categories to ensure a level playing field. Where is the line, as ever I'm just thinking out loud, I am fully aware I don't have the solution. If we made sports as safe as they could absolutely be, there wouldn't be any physical contact, any running, any risk of injury. On the opposite side to that, as south park eloquently and sensitively put across : If you've got a bare knuckle boxing competition and some bloke called Steve decides to become Stephanie for a day or two to absolutely dominate the women's category, that's not really great either.

As a complete aside (tbf a partial one as it's all linked), I wonder how much transphobia is born out of men conflicted about finding a biological male attractive, trans porn being rather popular in places that are the most intolerant of trans or queer communities. Those who display the kind of hatred who get their fill behind closed doors aren't exactly going to pipe up and say "Ah yeah maybe the reason I've jumped on this bandwagon because these people have made me question my sexuality". It's like* that video with Jon Stewart interviewing some politician about the supposed dangers of drag performers, whilst shrugging their shoulders at the actual real life gun issue that is the leading killer of kids.

*I should say it's not exactly like that, it's not necessarily helpful to conflate drag / cross dressing/ transgender into one big thing as I have sort of done in my above post.
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Not true at all and I resent the implication that anyone that is vocal about trans participation in women’s sport doesn’t really care about women. I’m sure some use it as an excuse to brick on trans people but it’s not fair to put everyone in the same box. I’m not sure what relevance women’s boxing in 1998 has to this really, I would have been 14 for what’s it’s worth so probably not old enough to comprehend the issue. I watch women’s athletics and tennis mainly, I’ll admit I don’t follow women’s football but I don’t watch men’s football below a certain level (championship or below) and I watch too much football as it is, seems like it is growing so good for them.

I don’t see it as an issue in non-contact sports where speed, strength and stamina aren’t a factor. But any sport where the above skills can give you an advantage then it’s safer to be cautious. A trans category seems the most logical solution. I fully accept there are those that will say well there’s not enough trans athletes to compete so the field wouldn’t be sufficient but I don’t really see any good options here, but that’s the least bad one IMO. For me the governing bodies such as the IOC have been cowards and let individual sports make their own rules when they really should have been stronger and not allowed trans athletes in women’s sports. Just to be clear I condemn anyone who abuses trans athletes, especially children. If you want to vent your anger then vent it at the governors of the particular sport for allowing them to compete in the first place. You don’t often hear about trans male athletes in men’s sports, I wonder why that is. I’m sure they exist but you never hear about them dominating men’s sports.

I may be wildly wrong here, but it seems like your default setting is to automatically side with whoever you perceive is the most maligned group of people whether it is fair or practical doesn’t matter. If it was men v women then you’d side with women.
 
Jurgen the German said:
Not true at all and I resent the implication that anyone that is vocal about trans participation in women’s sport doesn’t really care about women. I’m sure some use it as an excuse to brick on trans people but it’s not fair to put everyone in the same box. I’m not sure what relevance women’s boxing in 1998 has to this really, I would have been 14 for what’s it’s worth so probably not old enough to comprehend the issue. I watch women’s athletics and tennis mainly, I’ll admit I don’t follow women’s football but I don’t watch men’s football below a certain level (championship or below) and I watch too much football as it is, seems like it is growing so good for them.

I don’t see it as an issue in non-contact sports where speed, strength and stamina aren’t a factor. But any sport where the above skills can give you an advantage then it’s safer to be cautious. A trans category seems the most logical solution. I fully accept there are those that will say well there’s not enough trans athletes to compete so the field wouldn’t be sufficient but I don’t really see any good options here, but that’s the least bad one IMO. For me the governing bodies such as the IOC have been cowards and let individual sports make their own rules when they really should have been stronger and not allowed trans athletes in women’s sports. Just to be clear I condemn anyone who abuses trans athletes, especially children. If you want to vent your anger then vent it at the governors of the particular sport for allowing them to compete in the first place. You don’t often hear about trans male athletes in men’s sports, I wonder why that is. I’m sure they exist but you never hear about them dominating men’s sports.

I may be wildly wrong here, but it seems like your default setting is to automatically side with whoever you perceive is the most maligned group of people whether it is fair or practical doesn’t matter. If it was men v women then you’d side with women.
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You can completely misunderstand something and then resent it if you like bud. I was quite clear in my choice of words, why exactly I should repeat it is beyond me but I'll try again because it's your lucky day.

I believe that you, specifically you, are an example of someone who had little to no interest in women’s sport until it become about limiting trans participation (mainly transitioned women competing in women’s categories).

The examples I provided are clear cut examples in history of when things were categorically and systemically unfair via rules brought about by the men in charge at the time. It's all distant history so why bother about it right?

Agreed on the non contact sports, there's not really an issue if you have snooker / darts played out between opposing sexes. And you're right, a trans category (or two trans categories), makes sense in practice bit then there aren't enough trans people who want to compete in sports to make it viable, so then it seems a touch like we're saying "Be trans if you want, but you can’t play sports at a decent level, if at all", it seems like a slippery slope.

I wouldn't say I'm not bothered about fairness or practicality, but it's fair enough to suggest I'm more bothered about those who are oppressed by those in power because i appreciate and acknowledge my privilege, and in general I have a tendency to back the underdog, thanks for noticing!
 
spurspinter1 said:
You can completely misunderstand something and then resent it if you like bud. I was quite clear in my choice of words, why exactly I should repeat it is beyond me but I'll try again because it's your lucky day.

I believe that you, specifically you, are an example of someone who had little to no interest in women’s sport until it become about limiting trans participation (mainly transitioned women competing in women’s categories).

The examples I provided are clear cut examples in history of when things were categorically and systemically unfair via rules brought about by the men in charge at the time. It's all distant history so why bother about it right?

Agreed on the non contact sports, there's not really an issue if you have snooker / darts played out between opposing sexes. And you're right, a trans category (or two trans categories), makes sense in practice bit then there aren't enough trans people who want to compete in sports to make it viable, so then it seems a touch like we're saying "Be trans if you want, but you can’t play sports at a decent level, if at all", it seems like a slippery slope.

I wouldn't say I'm not bothered about fairness or practicality, but it's fair enough to suggest I'm more bothered about those who are oppressed by those in power because i appreciate and acknowledge my privilege, and in general I have a tendency to back the underdog, thanks for noticing!
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I can assure you I’ve watched women’s sports for years since I was about 7 or 8 when I started to follow tennis, not that I need to defend or explain myself but that’s the truth. Women’s tennis is actually more unpredictable as the top players lose more often than the likes of Federer, Nadal, Djokovic etc did in their prime.

Again I don’t know why you’ve crowbarred past historical wrongs against women into this discussion but nevertheless, if women are being treated unfairly or not allowed to compete then that’s wrong and I’m against it. On the subject of fairness, I do actually think female tennis players should play best of 5 sets like their male counterparts as they currently get the same prize money in the slams for playing shorter matches. That’s before you get into the revenue side of things and who draws more, but women should get the same as the men in the ATP events, not just the slams.

It may seem harsh to say trans athletes should compete in their own category or not at all which we agree there isn’t a lot of participants to make it viable but for the reasons I’ve laid out, I don’t see any other alternative and I don’t feel it’s fair for them to compete against biological women.

Nothing wrong with rooting for the underdog but I draw the line when it’s not fair or safe.
 
Jurgen the German said:
I can assure you I’ve watched women’s sports for years since I was about 7 or 8 when I started to follow tennis, not that I need to defend or explain myself but that’s the truth. Women’s tennis is actually more unpredictable as the top players lose more often than the likes of Federer, Nadal, Djokovic etc did in their prime.

Again I don’t know why you’ve crowbarred past historical wrongs against women into this discussion but nevertheless, if women are being treated unfairly or not allowed to compete then that’s wrong and I’m against it. On the subject of fairness, I do actually think female tennis players should play best of 5 sets like their male counterparts as they currently get the same prize money in the slams for playing shorter matches. That’s before you get into the revenue side of things and who draws more, but women should get the same as the men in the ATP events, not just the slams.

It may seem harsh to say trans athletes should compete in their own category or not at all which we agree there isn’t a lot of participants to make it viable but for the reasons I’ve laid out, I don’t see any other alternative and I don’t feel it’s fair for them to compete against biological women.

Nothing wrong with rooting for the underdog but I draw the line when it’s not fair or safe.
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With that kind of accusation, it's a tricky one and as you say, you're not obliged to defend yourself as you say. It's up to you to contemplate really, it's like if someone pulls another person up on a racist comment and that person explains that they have "loads of non white friends". It's a no win situation because the more "evidence" you give the more suspect you sound! I sincerely hope you don’t somehow misconstrue this example as you being racist or whatever.

I'm not sure it's crowbarring examples of recent and distant history seeing as the discussion is about the fairness of women's sport, which has been hampered by the patriarchy on ways that can never be fully recovered from. Easy to say just move on if it wasn't your lot that were systematically oppressed...And yeah it's about time that someone suggested women get paid too much nobody's brave enough to talk about the pay gap and history has been too kind to them for too long. Female tennis players with money get me fuming too 😤 😉

So it's harsh to trans women to exclude them but not fair to biological women to include them, in your own words. So the common sense train is quite as simple as it seems.

Safety is one thing, I facilitated a tournament last weekend and a larger kid caused an injury to a smaller kid that was part of the same age group, should we put in weight classes to stop that type of injury happening?

Fairness in sport is a whole different kettle of fish, do you think the opponents of Chelsea in the conference thought it was fair, playing against a team where any one player probably cost more than the whole football club will ever see? It might sound like whataboutery but when is sports ever truly fair?
 
spurspinter1 said:
With that kind of accusation, it's a tricky one and as you say, you're not obliged to defend yourself as you say. It's up to you to contemplate really, it's like if someone pulls another person up on a racist comment and that person explains that they have "loads of non white friends". It's a no win situation because the more "evidence" you give the more suspect you sound! I sincerely hope you don’t somehow misconstrue this example as you being racist or whatever.

I'm not sure it's crowbarring examples of recent and distant history seeing as the discussion is about the fairness of women's sport, which has been hampered by the patriarchy on ways that can never be fully recovered from. Easy to say just move on if it wasn't your lot that were systematically oppressed...And yeah it's about time that someone suggested women get paid too much nobody's brave enough to talk about the pay gap and history has been too kind to them for too long. Female tennis players with money get me fuming too 😤 😉

So it's harsh to trans women to exclude them but not fair to biological women to include them, in your own words. So the common sense train is quite as simple as it seems.

Safety is one thing, I facilitated a tournament last weekend and a larger kid caused an injury to a smaller kid that was part of the same age group, should we put in weight classes to stop that type of injury happening?

Fairness in sport is a whole different kettle of fish, do you think the opponents of Chelsea in the conference thought it was fair, playing against a team where any one player probably cost more than the whole football club will ever see? It might sound like whataboutery but when is sports ever truly fair?
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Let’s look it another way, what’s your thoughts on female who are unhappy about trans women competing against them and winning medals ahead of them which potentially leads to a loss of earnings? Should they just accept it and shut up? I’m convinced more athletes would speak up if they weren’t afraid of the repercussions, basically being called transphobic. How about parents who are uneasy about trans girls competing against their daughters?

Hold on, I never said women tennis players earn too much, I said they should play best of 5 sets like the men do. Considering women run marathons, ultra marathons, triathlons etc etc it doesn’t really wash anymore to say they can’t handle 5 sets of tennis.

The gender pay gap is a whole other debate which are there many factors to consider. The jobs people do being the most important factor. Bin men get brick wages, so do policemen and women and firemen considering the importance of their job. It’s got nothing to do with gender. Carers are another underpaid group of workers. You should watch Jonathan Pie’s interview where he interviews a feminist.

I can’t really disagree that sport isn’t really 100% fair but they are certain lines we should draw, which we do, there are weight divisions in boxing for example.
 
Jurgen the German said:
Let’s look it another way, what’s your thoughts on female who are unhappy about trans women competing against them and winning medals ahead of them which potentially leads to a loss of earnings? Should they just accept it and shut up? I’m convinced more athletes would speak up if they weren’t afraid of the repercussions, basically being called transphobic. How about parents who are uneasy about trans girls competing against their daughters?

Hold on, I never said women tennis players earn too much, I said they should play best of 5 sets like the men do. Considering women run marathons, ultra marathons, triathlons etc etc it doesn’t really wash anymore to say they can’t handle 5 sets of tennis.

The gender pay gap is a whole other debate which are there many factors to consider. The jobs people do being the most important factor. Bin men get brick wages, so do policemen and women and firemen considering the importance of their job. It’s got nothing to do with gender. Carers are another underpaid group of workers. You should watch Jonathan Pie’s interview where he interviews a feminist.

I can’t really disagree that sport isn’t really 100% fair but they are certain lines we should draw, which we do, there are weight divisions in boxing for example.
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On the first paragraph, are there widespread accounts of that happening? As ever, I think you'll find a bunch of research that backs one side and then studies on the other side which suggests that's not quite the way it is. It's arguably anecdotal but so far, a chap called Dave hasn't become a Davina and won a major open in women’s tennis, but maybe it's not possible to happen via current regulations. You'll know better than I on that one.

There's not an easy, viable inclusive and fair, solution and I don't think anyone would say that it's transphobic to admit that. Some particularly outspoken heads in the game choose to use dehumanising language / rhetoric belittling people who have an upwards battle just to be themselves.

How about parents of under 16 girls that are concerned about their girls competing against boys? As discussed it's mixed sex for football up until 16 so why would the trans issue even come up? It's hard to find girls only clubs to the point where it can be prohibitive, imagine trying to find a trans only club for your transitioned son / daughter.

Maybe you'll say I'm being pedantic but shouldn't it be the sex pay gap? Sex and gender mean different things, one being factual and the other being a societal construct. It's just humorous being upset about a very specific set of women getting paid the same to do less "work", as if it's some epic display of inequality given that little thing called history, which is worth keeping in mind.

As to why important jobs are underpaid, that's lurching into the realms of capitalism I guess, probably for another thread. If companies were bidding for rights to broadcast a nurse or refuse collected doing their job alongside punters wanting to pay 100 quid upwards whilst wearing a replica of their favourite key worker's uniform then there'd be more money in it. Unfortunately to those people with real jobs it might be crucial but it's not entertainment!

Nothing you've said has been wildly offensive or ignorant (in my view but what do I know), but perhaps an attempt to oversimplify what is a complicated subject. I just still find it curious how much you talk about this, compared to other issues which you might actually have real life experience of and have impacted you in a tangible way. But, admittedly going back to square one, you can focus on whatever you like.
 
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