AUDERE EST FACERE - NOW MORE THAN EVER

[parklane1]

Unfortunately some fans seem to think it's their duty... Given right...? To criticise everything about the club. Board, manager and players.

We just won a European cup, we should all be bouncing at the moment as we have fans going straight for Ange out...

Take a break for a few days. He will still be here over the weekend, celebrate and let's come back to who should be here next season or not (manager and players)

Amen to that brother [ especially the bolded bit]. I posted the other day about why we as fans who have made a decision to support our great club are so negative before a final that we are involved in and concentrate so much on negativity about how poor the manager is.

Now we have actually won something and yet some are still so hung up on doom and gloom that the joy of actually winning something is lost by the constant moaning of this and that. I choose to be a Spurs fan many, many years ago and believe me i have seen the bad times [ getting relegated among them] but that is no reason to not be happy in my team when the occasion arrives.

SAD REALLY.

 

[Mikey10]

Amen to that brother [ especially the bolded bit]. I posted the other day about why we as fans who have made a decision to support our great club are so negative before a final that we are involved in and concentrate so much on negativity about how poor the manager is.

Now we have actually won something and yet some are still so hung up on doom and gloom that the joy of actually winning something is lost by the constant moaning of this and that. I choose to be a Spurs fan many, many years ago and believe me i have seen the bad times [ getting relegated among them] but that is no reason to not be happy in my team when the occasion arrives.

SAD REALLY.

I don't get it either.

I've had my doubts about Ange for a long time, but I haven't felt this happy in years. Delighted for the players, delighted for the club and delighted for him. Nothing is going to puncture that. I am going to be floating on a footballing cloud all summer! I'll worry about next season in a couple of weeks. Until then, I'll stay blissed out, thank you very much.

 

[Grays_1890]

I don't get it either.

I've had my doubts about Ange for a long time, but I haven't felt this happy in years. Delighted for the players, delighted for the club and delighted for him. Nothing is going to puncture that. I am going be floatiing on a footballing cloud all summer! I'll worry about next season in a couple of weeks. Until then, I'll stay blissed out, thank you very much.

This

I think discussions about the manager even in the lead up, if not zealous were fine, people got their knickers in a twist but so be it

But now is a time for celebration and reflection, I think loads of people wanting to point score when we all really want the same thing deepdown

 

[thfcsteff]

It's a bit rich asking you that but... don't you judge these things in context?

For instance, I went into the CL final knowing we were huge outsiders for a variety of reasons (Liverpool were objectively one of the best teams in Europe and we had a few injury problems of our own) but history and past failures were not one of them.

Likewise, despite our miserable season, I always felt Wednesday's game was winnable because we've been consistently beating Man United for quite some time now. I'm not sure I would have been as confident if we'd played Bilbao or Lyon - let alone Liverpool.

Maybe it's an age thing - no disrespect, but I always assumed you're a few years older than I am - but I don't really see where you're coming from with these 'old fears'. As a fan, the confidence you feel going into the game is based on your assessment of both teams' recent performances, isn't it? Even if it isn't, it doesn't make much difference, judging on Wednesday's game: how many pundits claimed United would win because 'they're used to winning'?

I'm 58.
Has nothing to do with the question.

In fact, the bold-face above is the crux of it. WHAT context do we view this group [OF PLAYERS} in in the future? THEY have shown qualities we have not shown in these situations for a very long time. Beyond the degree of luck you need -which we did NOT get in 2019 - I felt THIS group were determined to get the job done and I believed they would.
Does THIS experience become the context? Simple question.

p.s. regarding 2019...I went FULLY expecting to win. And had we not suffered that atrocious decision, I will always believe we'd have won.

 

[Raziel]

I'm 58.
Has nothing to do with the question.

In fact, the bold-face above is the crux of it. WHAT context do we view this group [OF PLAYERS} in in the future? THEY have shown qualities we have not shown in these situations for a very long time. Beyond the degree of luck you need -which we did NOT get in 2019 - I felt THIS group were determined to get the job done and I believed they would.
Does THIS experience become the context? Simple question.

p.s. regarding 2019...I went FULLY expecting to win. And had we not suffered that atrocious decision, I will always believe we'd have won.

It's strange, in recent eras, we have had better first 11s, definitely better managers tactically, but this team has surpassed them all.

I had real doubts we would get to the final, but once there, it felt different, we felt better prepared (we went to Spain earlier than United), we felt braver (no questions, no end of era stuff), and we played like we fudging wanted it more, the moment did not overwhelm us.

For me, 2019 was a different experience (not worth going there)

Again, today, in front of our new Stadium, first trophy, young team, feels like the start of something

 

[lurker of old]

But now is a time for celebration and reflection

Agree and as part of reflection, asking the question about whether Ange's achievement means he deserves another crack is surely fair?

If I was the DOF I would want to learn how exactly Ange plans to play differently next season - in particular to stop opposition teams scoring within the first 10 minutes of the game. If his answer was cogent, then yes he deserves to continue what he has started. If his answer is unconvincing, vague or full of waffle, then we put the Cup down to poor opposition and some luck, and say "Thanks and bye". However wonderful this Cup is, and it certainly IS wonderful, and IS JOYFUL (not least in the context of our failure to win a trophy since 2008) and absolutely should be CELEBRATED and not dismissed, we have seen a level of mediocrity at WHL this season which is completely unacceptable. But if he really believes he can turn that round, well then, this could be the start of an amazing chapter of the success we so desperately want.

 

[NYSpur]

But now is a time for celebration and reflection

Agree and as part of reflection, asking the question about whether Ange's achievement means he deserves another crack is surely fair?

If I was the DOF I would want to learn how exactly Ange plans to play differently next season - in particular to stop opposition teams scoring within the first 10 minutes of the game. If his answer was cogent, then yes he deserves to continue what he has started. If his answer is unconvincing, vague or full of waffle, then we put the Cup down to poor opposition and some luck, and say "Thanks and bye". However wonderful this Cup is, and it certainly IS wonderful, and IS JOYFUL (not least in the context of our failure to win a trophy since 2008) and absolutely should be CELEBRATED and not dismissed, we have seen a level of mediocrity at WHL this season which is completely unacceptable. But if he really believes he can turn that round, well then, this could be the start of an amazing chapter of the success we so desperately want.

It would be malpractice to not look at the historically poor league season to decide the best way forward. One can note all the caveats about injuries but, for me, when we play the way Ange says he wants to, we will never have sustained success. Or any success, because since Frankfurt at home we did not play Angeball. We played Mourinho lite against poor opposition with luck on our side. It’s great we won, but I think one has to be wilfully blind to not acknowledge that 99 times out of 100 we would have lost that final. Maybe Ange is the lucky general that Napoleon banged on about, but if I was in the hot seat I would be thanking him for his efforts and finding a coach that attacks in a controlled way and knows how to defend. Not so easy, but with the Champions League you would hope we have a fair number to choose from.

 

[demotw]

It's not fear. It's predictability. It's having complete foresight of how things will play out, unless they are remedied.

Deep down everyone knows it too. There's no positive route forward from here with the status quo.

I just hope he gets on the mic after Brighton and goes 'the kids really miss their mates from school, so I've reluctantly had accept the Rangers job. Cheerio'

Foresight? Not something I would associate you with, infact generally speaking when you suggest a player or manager is going to be good it seems it’s the kiss of death for them. Mason the new Xavi? Bentaleb to destroy everyone etc etc..the list goes on and on.

Fact is, no one has a crystal ball, but what we can and should do is enjoy the moments we get and hope it’s a catalyst. Ange has delivered what he promised, you can’t ask more than that really. He has said the third season is always better, well he could be right - who knows

 

[Mr Gogolak]

I'm 58.
Has nothing to do with the question.

In fact, the bold-face above is the crux of it. WHAT context do we view this group [OF PLAYERS} in in the future? THEY have shown qualities we have not shown in these situations for a very long time. Beyond the degree of luck you need -which we did NOT get in 2019 - I felt THIS group were determined to get the job done and I believed they would.
Does THIS experience become the context? Simple question.

p.s. regarding 2019...I went FULLY expecting to win. And had we not suffered that atrocious decision, I will always believe we'd have won.

I mentioned the age factor because I thought you had seen more than I had, which would explain the 'fears' and 'traumas' you mentioned.

I have to say, we're looking at this cup win from very different perspectives (which isn't saying mine is any better than yours, by the way). To be perfectly honest, I don't see anything special in this group of players. That win, for me, is a combination of favourable circumstances (meeting the right teams at the right times, giving priority to the Europa League...) and the players performing according to their abilities.

There was nothing outstanding, except for the final win itself. The only team we weren't expected to beat was Frankfurt - but that's something quite common in European competitions outside the Champions League. Just like we did for long, other clubs tend to focus on the league and suffer unexpected defeats in Europe.

We didn't get over the line in 2019, but outing Emirates Marketing Project and Ajax was, for instance, much more of a feat in my opinion.

As for this experience, I'm not sure it's as important as you think it is. Firstly, we've always considered ourselves a big club. We have huge expectations: Champions League football and trophies. If anything, this trophy only gives weight to the idea that we are somehow 'underperforming'.

Secondly, the huge cloud hanging over the club over the past few years - in my opinion - wasn't the lack of silverware, but suspicions of complacency from top to bottom. As far as I can recall, whenever a manager was sacked, people (myself included) have suspected the players were settling for second-best.

From that point of view, you could argue that we turned a corner on Wednesday night, but the very same players don't seem really bothered with the league position. You can't be a winner on Wednesdays and settle for 17th in the league on Saturdays...

Did one cup win change all that? I wouldn't bet my house on it... I sincerely hope the club can build on that but in all fairness, I don't think it has changed my outlook on the players, the club or anything really. It has made me very happy though and that's all that I could have asked for!

 

[demotw]

I mentioned the age factor because I thought you had seen more than I had, which would explain the 'fears' and 'traumas' you mentioned.

I have to say, we're looking at this cup win from very different perspectives (which isn't saying mine is any better than yours, by the way). To be perfectly honest, I don't see anything special in this group of players. That win, for me, is a combination of favourable circumstances (meeting the right teams at the right times, giving priority to the Europa League...) and the players performing according to their abilities.

There was nothing outstanding, except for the final win itself. The only team we weren't expected to beat was Frankfurt - but that's something quite common in European competitions outside the Champions League. Just like we did for long, other clubs tend to focus on the league and suffer unexpected defeats in Europe.

We didn't get over the line in 2019, but outing Emirates Marketing Project and Ajax was, for instance, much more of a feat in my opinion.

As for this experience, I'm not sure it's as important as you think it is. Firstly, we've always considered ourselves a big club. We have huge expectations: Champions League football and trophies. If anything, this trophy only gives weight to the idea that we are somehow 'underperforming'.

Secondly, the huge cloud hanging over the club over the past few years - in my opinion - wasn't the lack of silverware, but suspicions of complacency from top to bottom. As far as I can recall, whenever a manager was sacked, people (myself included) have suspected the players were settling for second-best.

From that point of view, you could argue that we turned a corner on Wednesday night, but the very same players don't seem really bothered with the league position. You can't be a winner on Wednesdays and settle for 17th in the league on Saturdays...

Did one cup win change all that? I wouldn't bet my house on it... I sincerely hope the club can build on that but in all fairness, I don't think it has changed my outlook on the players, the club or anything really. It has made me very happy though and that's all that I could have asked for!

I think my perspective also differs then yours, however, can absolutely see your thought process on this and can see why you think that.

The only extra element I would add is, footballers are strange creatures who need huge amounts of confidence and self belief. When you have someone who stubbornly stands there and says we are winning something this year, then delivers it especially for a club who has developed a reputation as constant bottlers, well that breeds belief. It means if he tells the players we will be challenging for this title next year (not saying he has says this) then they are now more likely to believe.

This squad is top 6 currently, proved that last year, with some clever additions from Paratici and the right level of belief within the team, then the impossible can always be possible

 

[NYSpur]

I mentioned the age factor because I thought you had seen more than I had, which would explain the 'fears' and 'traumas' you mentioned.

I have to say, we're looking at this cup win from very different perspectives (which isn't saying mine is any better than yours, by the way). To be perfectly honest, I don't see anything special in this group of players. That win, for me, is a combination of favourable circumstances (meeting the right teams at the right times, giving priority to the Europa League...) and the players performing according to their abilities.

There was nothing outstanding, except for the final win itself. The only team we weren't expected to beat was Frankfurt - but that's something quite common in European competitions outside the Champions League. Just like we did for long, other clubs tend to focus on the league and suffer unexpected defeats in Europe.

We didn't get over the line in 2019, but outing Emirates Marketing Project and Ajax was, for instance, much more of a feat in my opinion.

As for this experience, I'm not sure it's as important as you think it is. Firstly, we've always considered ourselves a big club. We have huge expectations: Champions League football and trophies. If anything, this trophy only gives weight to the idea that we are somehow 'underperforming'.

Secondly, the huge cloud hanging over the club over the past few years - in my opinion - wasn't the lack of silverware, but suspicions of complacency from top to bottom. As far as I can recall, whenever a manager was sacked, people (myself included) have suspected the players were settling for second-best.

From that point of view, you could argue that we turned a corner on Wednesday night, but the very same players don't seem really bothered with the league position. You can't be a winner on Wednesdays and settle for 17th in the league on Saturdays...

Did one cup win change all that? I wouldn't bet my house on it... I sincerely hope the club can build on that but in all fairness, I don't think it has changed my outlook on the players, the club or anything really. It has made me very happy though and that's all that I could have asked for!

I largely agree, although I do think that there are some good players in the current group. I do think that we are underperfoming with these players playing Angeball, and got lucky with Pragmatic non-Angeball. It is interesting to me that earlier in the season Ange was dismissive of the importance of winning a cup as a panacea for all our ills, but is now in the "its a springboard" camp. My problem with the idea that we are now on the cusp of something great is our performances have generally been abysmal. And that includes a cup win where we played the entire second half desperately defending without any offense whatsoever. Where are the greenshoots that we can point to as a precursor to better days?

I would love to be able to say that it is onward and upward with Ange, but I fear if he stays we will be looking for a new coach mid way through the next season.

 

[carl]

I largely agree, although I do think that there are some good players in the current group. I do think that we are underperfoming with these players playing Angeball, and got lucky with Pragmatic non-Angeball. It is interesting to me that earlier in the season Ange was dismissive of the importance of winning a cup as a panacea for all our ills, but is now in the "its a springboard" camp. My problem with the idea that we are now on the cusp of something great is our performances have generally been abysmal. And that includes a cup win where we played the entire second half desperately defending without any offense whatsoever. Where are the greenshoots that we can point to as a precursor to better days?

I would love to be able to say that it is onward and upward with Ange, but I fear if he stays we will be looking for a new coach mid way through the next season.

Really good post from yourself and Mr Gogolak, sums up exactly how I feel.

Its amazing how a game of football can polarise opinions as I also thought we were pretty poor in the final but others have said they loved the performance.

Unfortunately I can't see them pulling the trigger with Ange now, not after these last few days. Fingers crossed he can turn it around next season (I would love him to as I actually really like him) but I just can't see it.

 

[Mr Gogolak]

I think my perspective also differs then yours, however, can absolutely see your thought process on this and can see why you think that.

The only extra element I would add is, footballers are strange creatures who need huge amounts of confidence and self belief. When you have someone who stubbornly stands there and says we are winning something this year, then delivers it especially for a club who has developed a reputation as constant bottlers, well that breeds belief. It means if he tells the players we will be challenging for this title next year (not saying he has says this) then they are now more likely to believe.

This squad is top 6 currently, proved that last year, with some clever additions from Paratici and the right level of belief within the team, then the impossible can always be possible

It's true and, at the end of the day, there's an element of faith / self-belief / confidence in every decision you make, even more so in football. It's great that people have different views and perspectives about Spurs. We experience things differently, and that's what makes these debates so enjoyable (if sometimes a bit heated!). Plus, it's always nice when you understand where someone's coming from, regardless of whether you agree with them or not.

We all want what's best for the club, and that's what's really matter!

 

[thfcsteff]

I mentioned the age factor because I thought you had seen more than I had, which would explain the 'fears' and 'traumas' you mentioned.

I have to say, we're looking at this cup win from very different perspectives (which isn't saying mine is any better than yours, by the way). To be perfectly honest, I don't see anything special in this group of players. That win, for me, is a combination of favourable circumstances (meeting the right teams at the right times, giving priority to the Europa League...) and the players performing according to their abilities.

There was nothing outstanding, except for the final win itself. The only team we weren't expected to beat was Frankfurt - but that's something quite common in European competitions outside the Champions League. Just like we did for long, other clubs tend to focus on the league and suffer unexpected defeats in Europe.

We didn't get over the line in 2019, but outing Emirates Marketing Project and Ajax was, for instance, much more of a feat in my opinion.

As for this experience, I'm not sure it's as important as you think it is. Firstly, we've always considered ourselves a big club. We have huge expectations: Champions League football and trophies. If anything, this trophy only gives weight to the idea that we are somehow 'underperforming'.

Secondly, the huge cloud hanging over the club over the past few years - in my opinion - wasn't the lack of silverware, but suspicions of complacency from top to bottom. As far as I can recall, whenever a manager was sacked, people (myself included) have suspected the players were settling for second-best.

From that point of view, you could argue that we turned a corner on Wednesday night, but the very same players don't seem really bothered with the league position. You can't be a winner on Wednesdays and settle for 17th in the league on Saturdays...

Did one cup win change all that? I wouldn't bet my house on it... I sincerely hope the club can build on that but in all fairness, I don't think it has changed my outlook on the players, the club or anything really. It has made me very happy though and that's all that I could have asked for!

As a person, I look to not live with fear. You've noticed that. It's why some people (including here) think of me as a hopeless 'happy clapper'. Rubbish of course, I can criticise and entertain criticisms, but I will never be afraid of who we are, where we are, and what we're doing. I think often a section of our support base have 'fear' mentality. I accept this is a human condition, and that it takes work to operate without it driving things, but add that to a lack of context and it can be critical.

Regarding 2019 (and look, the Poch era is one I have publicly spoken about adoring many times - truth be told I'm still bitter about how under-appreciated he was and how he was treated) however let's be honest. We had enormous luck against City away, you could even argue Ajax away too given Ziyech hitting the post late. But you need that luck, and frankly we deserved it and deserved better luck (or simply refereeing) in the Final.

I think saying who was or wasn't bothered with what is speculative.
I'd love to hear the full story, albeit I think it's pretty clear.

What I wonder is why people don't think of this 15 game experience as fortification of a mentality which is blossoming within these players, and of a mentality which can be augmented further with a few top level additions? The manager and club have already spoken of mistakes made from as early as pre-season in terms of prep versus workload players have suffered for a few years; what's to say the lessons of this enormously tough and weird campaign won't have been analysed, researched, and taken onboard?

THIS is what my questiuon was really all about. Can we believe in progress? Can we believe in what can be? Are we brave enough to take a chance and see? Or are we simply too 'set'?

You know my personal answer.
Appreciate the (as ever) civil and interesting discussion...

 

[Mikey10]

As a person, I look to not live with fear. You've noticed that. It's why some people (including here) think of me as a hopeless 'happy clapper'. Rubbish of course, I can criticise and entertain criticisms, but I will never be afraid of who we are, where we are, and what we're doing. I think often a section of our support base have 'fear' mentality. I accept this is a human condition, and that it takes work to operate without it driving things, but add that to a lack of context and it can be critical.

 

[Raziel]

As a person, I look to not live with fear. You've noticed that. It's why some people (including here) think of me as a hopeless 'happy clapper'. Rubbish of course, I can criticise and entertain criticisms, but I will never be afraid of who we are, where we are, and what we're doing. I think often a section of our support base have 'fear' mentality. I accept this is a human condition, and that it takes work to operate without it driving things, but add that to a lack of context and it can be critical.

Regarding 2019 (and look, the Poch era is one I have publicly spoken about adoring many times - truth be told I'm still bitter about how under-appreciated he was and how he was treated) however let's be honest. We had enormous luck against City away, you could even argue Ajax away too given Ziyech hitting the post late. But you need that luck, and frankly we deserved it and deserved better luck (or simply refereeing) in the Final.

I think saying who was or wasn't bothered with what is speculative.
I'd love to hear the full story, albeit I think it's pretty clear.

What I wonder is why people don't think of this 15 game experience as fortification of a mentality which is blossoming within these players, and of a mentality which can be augmented further with a few top level additions? The manager and club have already spoken of mistakes made from as early as pre-season in terms of prep versus workload players have suffered for a few years; what's to say the lessons of this enormously tough and weird campaign won't have been analysed, researched, and taken onboard?

THIS is what my questiuon was really all about. Can we believe in progress? Can we believe in what can be? Are we brave enough to take a chance and see? Or are we simply too 'set'?

You know my personal answer.
Appreciate the (as ever) civil and interesting discussion...

Of course we can/could progress, the pieces are there. We are better positioned for a revival that a lot of clubs that actually did.

Maybe we will, maybe we wont, all of us will still be here, to your point, regardless of outcome, it's simply more enjoyable for the ride if you believe you can, vs. constantly living in expectation of misery ..

 

[thfcsteff]

View attachment 19759

Geeeeeeeezer! A complicated man for sure...but what an individual!

 

[thfcsteff]

I largely agree, although I do think that there are some good players in the current group. I do think that we are underperfoming with these players playing Angeball, and got lucky with Pragmatic non-Angeball. It is interesting to me that earlier in the season Ange was dismissive of the importance of winning a cup as a panacea for all our ills, but is now in the "its a springboard" camp. My problem with the idea that we are now on the cusp of something great is our performances have generally been abysmal. And that includes a cup win where we played the entire second half desperately defending without any offense whatsoever. Where are the greenshoots that we can point to as a precursor to better days?

I would love to be able to say that it is onward and upward with Ange, but I fear if he stays we will be looking for a new coach mid way through the next season.

No Maddison, no Kulusevski, no Bergvall...

 

[thfcsteff]

Really good post from yourself and Mr Gogolak, sums up exactly how I feel.

Its amazing how a game of football can polarise opinions as I also thought we were pretty poor in the final but others have said they loved the performance.

Unfortunately I can't see them pulling the trigger with Ange now, not after these last few days. Fingers crossed he can turn it around next season (I would love him to as I actually really like him) but I just can't see it.

Do I want us playing football like that week in week out? Absolutely not. Did I want us playing a game like that in a major Final without our three most creative midfielders? Absolutely. Did I love the fact we could put in a performance like that under the circumstances we found ourselves in? Without a doubt. Context.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

Do I want us playing football like that week in week out? Absolutely not. Did I want us playing a game like that in a major Final without our three most creative midfielders? Absolutely. Did I love the fact we could put in a performance like that under the circumstances we found ourselves in? Without a doubt. Context.

We did exactly what we needed to do, stop their midfield and frustrate them at every opportunity, that was our only option with the limited creative choices we had. We made it a messy game and despite their possession they didn't create any clear cut chances. Not how I want us to play but definitely a case of the ends justify the means.