Ange in or out?

[Silly McSilly Face]

Seems to be a few video's going round with Ange being really friendly with the players, seems a bit strange its coming out now. All the players seem to love him according to interviews, i know they are hardly going to come out and claim he is brick and they hate him but it seems quite genuine.

Yeah I haven't seen any indication that he's lost the players. But then again, it's a pretty inexperienced group. The only one with a real winning mentality history is Romero who let's face it, doesn't give a t*ss because he's out of here in the summer. I think we've lost most of our players that wouldn't have accepted the standards shown this season and challenged the coaching staff. Kane, Lloris, Dier etc...there's a real lack of leadership and critical thinking in the squad right now....

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Yeah I haven't seen any indication that he's lost the players. But then again, it's a pretty inexperienced group. The only one with a real winning mentality history is Romero who let's face it, doesn't give a t*ss because he's out of here in the summer. I think we've lost most of our players that wouldn't have accepted the standards shown this season and challenged the coaching staff. Kane, Lloris, Dier etc...there's a real lack of leadership and critical thinking in the squad right now....

Bentacur and to some extent Kulu have won more than Romero … both at Juve (cups for Kulu) and Bentacur won titles at Boca too. Pretty sure he has won 5 league titles

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

Bentacur and to some extent Kulu have won more than Romero … both at Juve (cups for Kulu) and Bentacur won titles at Boca too. Pretty sure he has won 5 league titles

You can win trophies without being a leader. I don't think Bentancur nor Kulu were a key driving part of those Juventus trophy wins nor do I think they have the leadership qualities and adherence to standards I'm describing. What i mean by that is that i think they're very good players and can be part of winning teams clearly, but in dressing room and training ground i think.theyre happy to go with the flow and let whatever is happening happen. I think most of the players fall into that basket to be honest. Our standards were at our highest when we had lots of players prepared to challenge, publically if necessary, the club ethos, strategy and coaching staff. Think about the Danny Rose "stop signing players i have to Google"....

 

[thfcsteff]

Yeah I haven't seen any indication that he's lost the players. But then again, it's a pretty inexperienced group. The only one with a real winning mentality history is Romero who let's face it, doesn't give a t*ss because he's out of here in the summer. I think we've lost most of our players that wouldn't have accepted the standards shown this season and challenged the coaching staff. Kane, Lloris, Dier etc...there's a real lack of leadership and critical thinking in the squad right now....

I think our performances agains Frankfurt and Bodø/Glimt show that we have managed to discover -and foster- that very well in this competition. I also think you're forgetting some of the massive matches Sonny has featured in, including the one where he essentially had to win the match or suspend his career whilst he was forced to do national service; now that's pressure!!!

 

[thfcsteff]

You can win trophies without being a leader. I don't think Bentancur nor Kulu were a key driving part of those Juventus trophy wins nor do I think they have the leadership qualities and adherence to standards I'm describing. What i mean by that is that i think they're very good players and can be part of winning teams clearly, but in dressing room and training ground i think.theyre happy to go with the flow and let whatever is happening happen. I think most of the players fall into that basket to be honest. Our standards were at our highest when we had lots of players prepared to challenge, publically if necessary, the club ethos, strategy and coaching staff. Think about the Danny Rose "stop signing players i have to Google"....

You say that, yet many times when we had those players, we'd whimper out of cup competitions early!

I think this current situation is an anomalie and somewhat beyond any comparisons with 'norms' or not.

Not related, but this moment really does remind me in several ways of 1984. We'd lost a couple of very influential players to injury, we lost our skipper for the second-leg, we were off a run of poor league form...

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

I think our performances agains Frankfurt and Bodø/Glimt show that we have managed to discover -and foster- that very well in this competition. I also think you're forgetting some of the massive matches Sonny has featured in, including the one where he essentially had to win the match or suspend his career whilst he was forced to do national service; now that's pressure!!!

Do you think Son challenges Ange and the coaching staff and other players in the squad? Or do you think he just likes to be nice with everyone and keep the peace? I'm not doubting Son's internal mentality. I'm challenging his leadership abilities and his part in a decline in cultural standards from the peak Poch era.

 

[Ron Burgess]

After going to Palace away, Villa then Ipswich on the bounce I knew the tactics and structure stopped making sense. It stopped working from Fulham away last season (plus those awful 5 defeats that cost us 4th). Ange is done.

Back in October Palace only got a 1-0, their first win of the season. On Sunday, it should have been 5. Where on Earth has been our improvement vs Glasner's Palace? It's BS excuses from him. Every team in European competition needs to manage rotation. Excuse merchant.

Win or lose the EL he has to be sacked. Don't anyone kid themselves this guy said he was planning for sustained success with his principles, but we are now playing hoof ball to get to a final (which is amazing, but we are 17th).

With Burnley, Leeds and Sheffield United likely to come up, they will make a much better go of staying up than Saints and Ipswich. We will be bang in trouble if we keep Ange. Actual relegation.

Sack him at the end of the season. Hopefully with a trophy, a thank you, and this season becomes crazily iconic. But Ange has to go

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

You say that, yet many times when we had those players, we'd whimper out of cup competitions early!

I think this current situation is an anomalie and somewhat beyond any comparisons with 'norms' or not.

Not related, but this moment really does remind me in several ways of 1984. We'd lost a couple of very influential players to injury, we lost our skipper for the second-leg, we were off a run of poor league form...

Well it is beyond comparison because I don't know of any club in Europes top leagues that after nigh on 15 years of consistently challenging for the top 4 or 6 in the league and playing in later stages of Europe, appoint a guy whose only experience in Europe was a brief stint in the SPL and then pair him with a bunch of late 20s to 30s coaches from lower English leagues and SPL and then sign a tonne of teenagers. The utter bilge we've had to endure this season was sadly, fairly inevitable and I called it as likely going to be one of our worst seasons in 25-30 years early in the season. People were laughing at me when I said we'd finish in the 40 odd point mark.

 

[Welshspur60]

Was at the game yesterday, and yet again saw the huge flaw in Ange's approach, epitomised by Palace's first goal. Spence was way up in the opposition's half. We lose possession and BAM, they are attacking the space where he ought to be. Bentacur had to try as best he could but defending without defenders is madness, and is - for me, with my unsophisticated football brain - the key reason we lose game after game after game. Ange can play more pragmatically, as we saw against Frankfurt away, but he sticks with his "Devil may care/throw everyone forward" approach in the league, loss after loss after loss. How can any Spurs fan want him to stay????

Its not as if we create loads of chances either. We never looked like scoring v Palace.

 

[tommysvr]

but we are now playing hoof ball to get to a final (which is amazing, but we are 17th).

Hold up. We created loads and loads of chances in each of our home games in the Europa League. AZ we won comfortably (bar some scares when they scored), we should have comfortably beaten Frankfurt, we could have beaten Bodø by more. It most certainly wasn't by playing "hoof ball."

The away games have been more pragmatic...as much by design as by the fact that they're tough away games in European competition.

 

[thfcsteff]

Do you think Son challenges Ange and the coaching staff and other players in the squad? Or do you think he just likes to be nice with everyone and keep the peace? I'm not doubting Son's internal mentality. I'm challenging his leadership abilities and his part in a decline in cultural standards from the peak Poch era.

I absolutely believe Sonny has had some arguments with Ange, yes. As for leadership, there are several ways to lead, albeiut I accept your point.

 

[veryoldspur]

Hold up. We created loads and loads of chances in each of our home games in the Europa League. AZ we won comfortably (bar some scares when they scored), we should have comfortably beaten Frankfurt, we could have beaten Bodø by more. It most certainly wasn't by playing "hoof ball."

The away games have been more pragmatic...as much by design as by the fact that they're tough away games in European competition.

The reality is though the only half decent side we beat was Frankfurt. Some people are talking as if getting to this final has been a massive achievement, NO getting to the CL final in 2019 was a massive achievement. Regardless of the outcome next Wednesday this has been an awful season and Ange needs to go

 

[thfcsteff]

The reality is though the only half decent side we beat was Frankfurt. Some people are talking as if getting to this final has been a massive achievement, NO getting to the CL final in 2019 was a massive achievement. Regardless of the outcome next Wednesday this has been an awful season and Ange needs to go

You're scared aren't you?!!!

 

[tommysvr]

The reality is though the only half decent side we beat was Frankfurt. Some people are talking as if getting to this final has been a massive achievement, NO getting to the CL final in 2019 was a massive achievement. Regardless of the outcome next Wednesday this has been an awful season and Ange needs to go

Would you have been happy if we'd won the FA Cup in 2018? We beat AFC Wimbledon, Newport County (replay), Rochdale (replay) and Swansea before losing to Manchester United in the semi final.

How about in 2017? We beat Aston Villa (championship), Wycombe, Fulham and Millwall before losing to Chelsea in the semi final.

2012? We beat Cheltenham Town, Watford, Stevenage and Bolton before losing to Chelsea in the semi final.

2010? We beat Peterborough, Leeds (replay), Bolton (replay) and Fulham before losing to Portsmouth in the semi final.

Did the teams we beat in 2008 have any impact on your enjoyment of the League Cup? Middlesbrough, Blackpool, (old) Emirates Marketing Project, Arsenal and Chelsea.

In 1999 there were two huge wins against Liverpool and Man Utd, surrounded by Brenford, Northampton Town, Wimbledon and Leicester.

In 1991, Blackpool, Oxford, Portsmouth, Notts County, Arsenal and Forest -- only one good team in there! I guess it doesn't count either.

I think you get my point.

 

[Bishop]

Would you have been happy if we'd won the FA Cup in 2018? We beat AFC Wimbledon, Newport County (replay), Rochdale (replay) and Swansea before losing to Manchester United in the semi final.

How about in 2017? We beat Aston Villa (championship), Wycombe, Fulham and Millwall before losing to Chelsea in the semi final.

2012? We beat Cheltenham Town, Watford, Stevenage and Bolton before losing to Chelsea in the semi final.

2010? We beat Peterborough, Leeds (replay), Bolton (replay) and Fulham before losing to Portsmouth in the semi final.

Did the teams we beat in 2008 have any impact on your enjoyment of the League Cup? Middlesbrough, Blackpool, (old) Emirates Marketing Project, Arsenal and Chelsea.

In 1999 there were two huge wins against Liverpool and Man Utd, surrounded by Brenford, Northampton Town, Wimbledon and Leicester.

In 1991, Blackpool, Oxford, Portsmouth, Notts County, Arsenal and Forest -- only one good team in there! I guess it doesn't count either.

I think you get my point.

I don't think the run matters, as you note loads of teams have won cups with weak runs. So it's fine to just herald the actual winning (something we don't do). At the same time it's also fair to look at the detail when really analysing the performances or the stature but I think that's more of an internal analysis rather than one you have with outsiders.


Winning the Europa League will be amazing for us and something I do hold as an important trophy. End of. But in context it hasn't been a difficult or glorious run but so what.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

You can win trophies without being a leader. I don't think Bentancur nor Kulu were a key driving part of those Juventus trophy wins nor do I think they have the leadership qualities and adherence to standards I'm describing. What i mean by that is that i think they're very good players and can be part of winning teams clearly, but in dressing room and training ground i think.theyre happy to go with the flow and let whatever is happening happen. I think most of the players fall into that basket to be honest. Our standards were at our highest when we had lots of players prepared to challenge, publically if necessary, the club ethos, strategy and coaching staff. Think about the Danny Rose "stop signing players i have to Google"....

I agree
But I wouldn’t have Romero and the word leadership in the same sentence
I wouldn’t have any of our senior leadership myself hold those roles

 

[harr1984]

I don't think the run matters, as you note loads of teams have won cups with weak runs. So it's fine to just herald the actual winning (something we don't do). At the same time it's also fair to look at the detail when really analysing the performances or the stature but I think that's more of an internal analysis rather than one you have with outsiders.


Winning the Europa League will be amazing for us and something I do hold as an important trophy. End of. But in context it hasn't been a difficult or glorious run but so what.

You are right. But it seems like a lot of people just portray things the way they want to dependent on whether they like the manager or not.
Had Poch won this competition (and yes, of course we have not won it yet!) with an identical run, there is absolutely no doubt people would have just heralded it as a great achievement but because it's Ange in charge it is played down.

It hasn't been a glorious run, but more difficult than many want to make out. We have fielded similar level/even stronger teams under Poch against average opposition in the Europa League and come unstuck eg losing to Gent 1-0 as an example with a strong team. Travelling away in Europe especially is not easy, and for us with all our injuries at that time to finish 4th in the league with one defeat and one point off top was a good achievement. Then Frankfurt was a really professional performance, and Bode Glimt there were many pre match saying we were going to get knocked out they are a much better footballing side than us etc etc Then we have the audacity to outplay them and make them look average, and then low and behold the narrative changes and its all 'They are poor' blah blah.

It is never an easy task to travel across Europe and get to the final, hell we couldn't even come close when in the Conference cup! Let's hope we get it over the line, because regardless of anyone on here or elsewhere trying to play it down the history books will tell you it's a damn good accomplishment and something we haven't done for years.....

 

[DubSpur]

You can win trophies without being a leader. I don't think Bentancur nor Kulu were a key driving part of those Juventus trophy wins nor do I think they have the leadership qualities and adherence to standards I'm describing. What i mean by that is that i think they're very good players and can be part of winning teams clearly, but in dressing room and training ground i think.theyre happy to go with the flow and let whatever is happening happen. I think most of the players fall into that basket to be honest. Our standards were at our highest when we had lots of players prepared to challenge, publically if necessary, the club ethos, strategy and coaching staff. Think about the Danny Rose "stop signing players i have to Google"....

Romero is far from a leader. A true leader sets standards week in week out, do you really think that describes Romero? He only turns up for games he feels like it. In the less glamourous ties he often phones it in. Even if he is off in the summer if he was a true leader he would be driving standards to the end.

The only leader in the group is Kulu. He is constantly demanding more. Listen to his interviews, he's always aiming high, looking for more from himself and the team. Contrast that to an interview with Son who looks like he's going to cry and Romero who doesn't care.

 

[Muttley]

Romero is far from a leader. A true leader sets standards week in week out, do you really think that describes Romero? He only turns up for games he feels like it. In the less glamourous ties he often phones it in. Even if he is off in the summer if he was a true leader he would be driving standards to the end.

The only leader in the group is Kulu. He is constantly demanding more. Listen to his interviews, he's always aiming high, looking for more from himself and the team. Contrast that to an interview with Son who looks like he's going to cry and Romero who doesn't care.

You first paragraph perfectly explains the later career Kane. The only difference is when you cross the white line and coast through a game but score a goal you get away with it. Seen it for club and country many times, but GHod forbid anyone calls him on it. Leaders in that pack were Walker, Dele, Rose, Toby, Jan, Dier etc. They weren't Kane, Son and Eriksen. Last guys I'd ever give the captaincy to just because they were amazing players. Hugo and Dembele came across as immense leaders as well and just commanded respect from everyone around them. Big Vic for the short time he was here led everyone on that pitch. Davies and Winks have some great people skills as well.

Personally, I just think we need some patience with this squad. In 2015, you wouldn't have been talking about Spurs as a team full of the above leaders. Then a couple of years later they were everywhere. You identified Kulu, and we see from the clips what a massive personality Porro is in the changing room. Love these 2 guys.

From this point, we'll just watch them all grow and I have a feeling we'll be saying the same thing about the class of 2024/25 at some point.

I'm not totally aligned on Romero though. I think he takes a lot of responsibility. He demands the ball and he takes control on the pitch. Where I have a problem with him is holding himself to standards in his defending. He's at the age where he now needs to go up a gear and find that Jan or Toby level of consistency. If he can't, then he'll have that weakness you don't want in your leaders.

 

[DubSpur]

You first paragraph perfectly explains the later career Kane. The only difference is when you cross the white line and coast through a game but score a goal you get away with it. Seen it for club and country many times, but GHod forbid anyone calls him on it. Leaders in that pack were Walker, Dele, Rose, Toby, Jan, Dier etc. They weren't Kane, Son and Eriksen. Last guys I'd ever give the captaincy to just because they were amazing players. Hugo and Dembele came across as immense leaders as well and just commanded respect from everyone around them. Big Vic for the short time he was here led everyone on that pitch. Davies and Winks have some great people skills as well.

Personally, I just think we need some patience with this squad. In 2015, you wouldn't have been talking about Spurs as a team full of the above leaders. Then a couple of years later they were everywhere. You identified Kulu, and we see from the clips what a massive personality Porro is in the changing room. Love these 2 guys.

From this point, we'll just watch them all grow and I have a feeling we'll be saying the same thing about the class of 2024/25 at some point.

I'm not totally aligned on Romero though. I think he takes a lot of responsibility. He demands the ball and he takes control on the pitch. Where I have a problem with him is holding himself to standards in his defending. He's at the age where he now needs to go up a gear and find that Jan or Toby level of consistency. If he can't, then he'll have that weakness you don't want in your leaders.

Disagree on Kane, but you can't resist getting another swipe at him whenever possible.
He was run into the ground, played with injuries, and carrying the team for years meant he couldn't go flat out every single game. Hugo a leader? About as much a leader as Son. Dele, Rose, and Walker to a lesser extent could barely lead themselves never mind a team. I guess we have totally different ideas on what a leader is.

If Romero took responsibility on the pitch he wouldn't have gone wandering and been responsible for so many goals.

One point I do agree is that the current squad needs patience.