Sick sick world what is wrong with people

[dawaxman]

I don't have anywhere near a well enough educated answer to that.
That is a little simplistic, but based on the activities in and coming out of the West Bank, Hamas do not represent the interests of the Palestinian people.

Whether they represent the interests (or will) of the people of Gaza is more difficult to answer. Hamas clearly represent the interests of Hamas and of what Hamas considers a religious ideology (IE the eradication of Israel. I don't actually know if that extends to eradication of the Jews, or just of Israel. I probably should know that). Whether that is the interest of, or will of, Gaza people (Gazians?), I have absolutely no idea.
I don't consider the 18 year "election" to be an indicator.

Again, it is almost certainly simplistic, but the logical (not necessarily sensible) solution would be for the half of the world that doesn't recognise Palestine as a Sovereign State to recognise them and work with them to ensure an election of internationally recognised standard is undertaken.
However, that will almost certainly result in Hamas coming to power across in Palestine (whether by vote or by bomb, much like ISIS etc have elsewhere) either at the election or afterwards.

There is no solution other than scorchered earth.
Hamas (and any other synonym for religious ideation manifesting itself in violence - whether by terrorist group or sovereign state; often a fine line between the two) are clearly disgusting by western standards (until the west actually examines itself) - but they consider their actions as justified by a fairy story. As does Israel. Both are wrong. Or right. Depending on political/religious views.

We pretend like this is a modern world problem. It isn't. It's a fight over a piece of land. If they can't agree to act reasonably towards eachotherother (in whatever method), maybe neither should be allowed the land. Make it a religious theme park. They clearly can't be trusted to share.

Great post bar the final paragraph

For Israel it's a fight to defend itself*
For Hamas it's a fight to eradicate the Jewish people

*let's please not get into a discussion on the way Israel has chosen to defend itself, it's complex and impossible to conprehend from the safety of our homes in the UK and other non war zones

 

[monkeybarry]

Great post bar the final paragraph

For Israel it's a fight to defend itself*
For Hamas it's a fight to eradicate the Jewish people

*let's please not get into a discussion on the way Israel has chosen to defend itself, it's complex and impossible to conprehend from the safety of our homes in the UK and other non war zones

Quick question - is that true? Or is a fight to read Israel?

 

[dawaxman]

Quick question - is that true? Or is a fight to read Israel?

https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/880818a.htm

 

[SpurMeUp]

Why do you think there is the situation in the West Bank? Honestly? Do you think they do it just to boil some tinkle? Or do you think its the exact same issue of defending themselves from another terrorist entry point?

Have you accepted that Gaza is 'run by Hamas'? Why will you not do the same for the west bank?

Israel don't want war. Israel want to be able to continue living their life without fear of being destroyed by Hamas, ISIS, Hezbollah et al

It's a very real fear. If you don't believe me, go to Israel, and then tell me you'd like to live like that...

The only tiny plot of land on this earth where there is a Jewish state, and its constantly under attack. And you feel educated enough on it to condemn them?

Do I feel for the plight of the Palestinian people? Of course I do. But the reality is that they've been radicalised by the terrorist organisations that rule there.... whose sole purpose is to delete Jews.... and those poor souls that are left are being used as human shields by their rulers and/or hate Jews with the same unexplainable venom

If they choose to come into Israel, unarmed, and without hate, they are allowed to thrive. Just like ANY community can (something that can't be said for the rest of the Arabic countries.... but we accept this as a 'cultural acceptance' wtf!)

If you don't believe what I'm saying because of what you've seen in the media, go and visit Israel and see for yourself

And one final point.... there seems to be so much focus on Palestine and the suffering of their people, and yet there are so many worse atrocities happening right now around the world in North Korea, Libya, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Tibet, Pakistan etc etc etc

Are people so antisemitic that this is the only atrocity that they have an opinion on, despite never having been within a hundred miles of Palestine?

Why does this one matter to you so much? Were you so vocal when the Germans and French armed the tribes of Rwanda and stood back whilst their facilitated genocide happened?

Would you have been outraged when the Congolese decimated the populations of Central Africa?

Or is this because the Jewish people offend you so much?

I have also long wondered why people are so exercised by Isreal and not other conflicts. I think the religious angle is probably why. People side, in a not dissimilar way to football, with 'their club'. And that club can have a religious/ethnic linage or even a political right-left origin, left more sympathetic to deemed oppression; and right in favour of pioneering Israel. Such in-out groups are really the origin of the conflict too. 'Arab' vs 'Jew' was the first. And as we've seen in the Middle East these ingroups can change to Coptic Christians vs Muslims or Shiite vs Sunni. It is almost like humans need an enemy to fight against and to define themselves.

It is clear that some people have made their mind up. They don't like Israel and what it stands for. They might not have ever visited or understood the history. They have just aligned with an in-group.

 

[dawaxman]

I have also long wondered why people are so exercised by Isreal and not other conflicts. I think the religious angle is probably why. People side, in a not dissimilar way to football, with 'their club'. And that club can have a religious/ethnic linage or even a political right-left origin, left more sympathetic to deemed oppression, and right in favour or pioneering Israel. Such in-out groups is really the origin of the conflict too. 'Arab' vs 'Jew' was the first. And as we've seen in the Middle East this moves beyond to Coptic Christians vs Muslims or Shiite vs Sunni. It is almost like humans need an enemy to fight against to define themselves.

It is clear that some people have made their mind up. They don't like Isreal and what it stands for. They might not have ever visited or understood the history. They have just aligned with an in-group.

My point is, why do they have a viewpoint at all?

I guarantee, most people who are demonstrating on the streets couldn't point to Israel on an unlabeled map.

They'd be shocked to discover how small it is, and how large Saudi Arabia and Iran are by comparison

 

[scaramanga]

It's only when you do work with Hamas that peace comes. See the Good Friday agreement - it was bringing Sein Fein/the IRA in that made that work, just the moderate SDLP (Fatah) wouldn't have worked. Ditto the DUP, not just the moderate UUs.

The UK only got peace in Ireland by giving absolutely everything away and getting nothing in return.

That's not a model that should be followed by anyone.

 

[scaramanga]

The BBC have shown wall-to-wall coverage of a hugely dominant Israeli viewpoint. The pro-Israel stance is prevalent in Western media. Calling people anti-Semitic baselessly is a dingdong move and negates anything else you have offered in this thread.

You must have a different version of the BBC where you live.

The one here won't even refer to Hamas as terrorists.

 

[AuroRaman]

You must have a different version of the BBC where you live.

The one here won't even refer to Hamas as terrorists.

Correct. As they shouldn’t. You and I know Hamas are terrorists, the BBC are following guidelines that are meant to be in line with other broadcasters.

 

[DTA]

Why do you think there is the situation in the West Bank? Honestly? Do you think they do it just to boil some tinkle? Or do you think its the exact same issue of defending themselves from another terrorist entry point?

Have you accepted that Gaza is 'run by Hamas'? Why will you not do the same for the west bank?

Israel don't want war. Israel want to be able to continue living their life without fear of being destroyed by Hamas, ISIS, Hezbollah et al

It's a very real fear. If you don't believe me, go to Israel, and then tell me you'd like to live like that...

The only tiny plot of land on this earth where there is a Jewish state, and its constantly under attack. And you feel educated enough on it to condemn them?

Do I feel for the plight of the Palestinian people? Of course I do. But the reality is that they've been radicalised by the terrorist organisations that rule there.... whose sole purpose is to delete Jews.... and those poor souls that are left are being used as human shields by their rulers and/or hate Jews with the same unexplainable venom

If they choose to come into Israel, unarmed, and without hate, they are allowed to thrive. Just like ANY community can (something that can't be said for the rest of the Arabic countries.... but we accept this as a 'cultural acceptance' wtf!)

If you don't believe what I'm saying because of what you've seen in the media, go and visit Israel and see for yourself

And one final point.... there seems to be so much focus on Palestine and the suffering of their people, and yet there are so many worse atrocities happening right now around the world in North Korea, Libya, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Tibet, Pakistan etc etc etc

Are people so antisemitic that this is the only atrocity that they have an opinion on, despite never having been within a hundred miles of Palestine?

Why does this one matter to you so much? Were you so vocal when the Germans and French armed the tribes of Rwanda and stood back whilst their facilitated genocide happened?

Would you have been outraged when the Congolese decimated the populations of Central Africa?

Or is this because the Jewish people offend you so much?

There is a lot in here.

But If you are suggest I’m anti Jewish you are off your rocker. I’m not that guy.

You are offended because I’m saying that the settlements in the west bank demonstrate that Israel is not being an honest participant in building a viable two state solution.

so show me how the settlements enhance the prospects of that mate?

While you’re at it show me how the settlements enhance Israel’s security? I can understand with the Golan heights but explain it to me with the West Bank settlements help a two state solution become a reality.

unless you don’t want a two state solution. If so tell us your plan?

now on to why I feel i can comment on a complex situation, do you have a PHD in every subject you talk about? I will say this though I have more knowledge about both sides of this situation than most people do.

tell me something, what are the things that Israel are doing wrong both historically and more recently?

Just for clarification, I have condemned Hamas’ actions without reservation and not just on here.

 

[scaramanga]

The other thing that surprises me, and I don't know the full international law here, but surely there's resolutions in place that should mean Israel cannot do some of the things it is doing? Cutting off water/energy for example, is that allowed under international conventions? Like, i had a quick read and apparently it is, but then, absolutely no condemnation on the retaliatory actions (again, not here to say how we got here).

Is any country ever required to provide power and water to others?

The UK isn't providing power to Gaza, are we then guilty?

Just now a University was bombed in Gaza. If the Taliban did that, it would be a news story. If Russia did that to Ukraine, it would be a news story. Yet here, it's kind of accepted in the Israel/Palestine conflict and back to my point on the media, it's almost ignored. Mental.

There's a huge difference between the two cases.

Israel's military are housed in military facilities and they use uniforms to distinguish themselves from civilians. Anyone targeting a hospital or university in Israel is intentionally targeting civilians.

Hamas set their military up in hospitals and civilian buildings, dressing as civilians in order to use their own people as human shields. When Israel targets a university, it is targeting Hamas. The fault that civilians are caught up in it is entirely of Hamas's making.

 

[scaramanga]

Correct. As they shouldn’t. You and I know Hamas are terrorists, the BBC are following guidelines that are meant to be in line with other broadcasters.

Hamas is a proscribed terrorist organisation. They are not just terrorists in our eyes, they are officially recognised as such by the government.

The BBC has a long and storied history of bias against Israel - it's well known for it. This is just the latest example.

 

[P.D.]

So you're holding Egypt to account for these crimes too? Or just Isreal?





It is not for a lack of external effort. The issues reside in the history of the region.

Ashkenazi jews, who are still alive today, fled homes and communities across the Middle East as various Arab states and populations ostracised them. It was partly as a result of the formation of Isreal, and partly plain old prejudice. The tension pre-dates modern Isreal and any actions it has or has not taken. It exists today, for example. And other in-group strife exists in the middle east too. Coptic Christians were a huge part of Cario and Egypt and the middle east. There are very few left. In most of the middle east all three religions were represented and lived side by side for thousands of years. In the last 70 odd years that has changed. Even within Islam there are factions - Shai and Sunni tensions cause massive conflicts too. So (others not you) attributing the disharmony in Isreal to the actions of the Israli state is an oversimplification.

What I would ask of those who rightly flag up what Isreal has done wrong or those who are anti-Zionist, is what would you suggest was done differently? No doubt mistakes are made. But how should things be improved? That is the key question.

You can go back in history and find countless examples of minorities who are being persecuted bug ignored because it doesn't suit the powers that be's interests. Look at the Ughurys in China, Kurds in various countries etc.

I don't have a solution for any of these things because I'm not well informed enough but for instance the settlements in the West Bank I believe have been deemed illegal under international law could be removed. There was a UN thing years ago that allocated land to both sides which I believe is technically still the legal position. Both sides didn't like it but it would act as a starting point.

I am surprised the other middle eastern countries haven't made any mediation efforts over the previous years, they're generally not fans of Israel yet haven't really got involved. Egypt could easily help as they have a crossing but don't seem interested.

 

[monkeybarry]

The UK only got peace in Ireland by giving absolutely everything away and getting nothing in return.

That's not a model that should be followed by anyone.

After having already taken everything and giving nothing in return.
(Oh, the UK still has NI as part of the nation - NI is more than nothing)

 

[dawaxman]

There is a lot in here.

But If you are suggest I’m anti Jewish you are off your rocker. I’m not that guy.

You are offended because I’m saying that the settlements in the west bank demonstrate that Israel is not being an honest participant in building a viable two state solution.

so show me how the settlements enhance the prospects of that mate?

While you’re at it show me how the settlements enhance Israel’s security? I can understand with the Golan heights but explain it to me with the West Bank settlements help a two state solution become a reality.

unless you don’t want a two state solution. If so tell us your plan?

now on to why I feel i can comment on a complex situation, do you have a PHD in every subject you talk about? I will say this though I have more knowledge about both sides of this situation than most people do.

tell me something, what are the things that Israel are doing wrong both historically and more recently?

Just for clarification, I have condemned Hamas’ actions without reservation and not just on here.

I want to respond to this in full, but I'm drained. This week has been horrendous for me - two close friends have passed away....

I'm not avoiding your questions because I'm unable to, I've just lost my oomph

If I remember, I'll come back to this later

But, I'm not saying the Israeli government are angels... that though doesn't give you or anyone the right to justify the actions of a terrorist organisation in targeting the wholly innocent, caring, loving, inclusive people of Israel - which has happened, and I'm having to debate with people why this is somehow justified because of the actions of the Israeli government to wage war against terrorists...I know that innocent people are impacted in gaza too but they are NOT the target of the Israeli government and if hamas stopped using them as human shields they'd be unscathed

 

[AuroRaman]

Hamas is a proscribed terrorist organisation. They are not just terrorists in our eyes, they are officially recognised as such by the government.

The BBC has a long and storied history of bias against Israel - it's well known for it. This is just the latest example.

It’s also been accused of having a pro-Israel bias. That’s the beauty of a supposedly impartial organisation, no-one is satisfied. ITN follow the same guidelines as do Sky. They just choose not to enforce it as strictly as the Beeb. Channel 4 News is considered to be to the left and yet they have steadfastly called Hamas a proscribed terrorist organisation.

 

[braineclipse]

The description you've offered from your friend/s is nothing I've encountered and I've been there multiple times per year over the last 30+ years... so I can't accept that account I'm afraid. I'm not overtly Jewish, so my experience would be the same as any other person there

As to your other point, this is the bit that is impossible to explain to any non-Jew... and even some Jews....

Israel is the only Jewish state, it's the only place I have if/when we're no longer welcome in the country we're currently living. And no, I'm not being dramatic... the pogroms happened within the last 150 years and the holocaust in the last 80 years. My Jewish identity and the vast majority of other Jews is wrapped up in what you call, just a country.

It's not the same for Christians or Muslims or Hindus as there are many, many countries whose main/only religion is theirs

Israel is the only Jewish nation on this planet

In the UK, Jewish people make up less than 0.5% of the population. Similar numbers in USA and Australia.....

That is why this is so emotive

Hope you can try to understand that

What would be your most understanding viewpoint on the Palestinians and the anger many of them feel about their current situation?

 

[Craig_J]

I can understand people feeling attached to Israel for its spiritual significance to all Jews as the birth place of their religion - and for what it offered them post holocaust.


What I can’t understand is people being so blindly loyal to a state that they can not recognise that it is a country that has flouted international laws


Palestinians have done many a bad thing to innoncents over the last 60 years and that is completely unacceptable. Israel has done plenty of bad things to innocents and that is completely unacceptable.


In recent years Israeli electives have done their best to stir the pot as much as they possibly can. They’ve deliberately been going around everywhere, demonstrating extremely Islamophobic views and smiling knowingly
and smuggly as they’ve been doing it:


Scara said Palestinians shouldn’t vote in hamas if they don’t want to be unrecognised
Well maybe Israel shouldn’t vote in self declared homophobic, Islamophobic, brick stirring facsits if they don’t want to be seen as a threat to the Palestinian peope.


You can’t run around as public officials encouraging settlers to kill Arabs and making it your day to day job to antagonises as much as possible and not expect any come back from that. That’s not how the world works.


Doesn’t mean it’s acceptable at all whats happened. But you stir for so long you whip up all kinds of brick.


If Israel was actually taking the moral highground and not responding with tit for tat then fair enough. If they want to be the leaders of the Middle East then lead by example. If Israel wasn’t so oppressive for sure they would have the backing of all citizens of the western world - and any kind of attack on them would rightly be attributed soley to Hamas and not in any way tied to them.


But cutting off citizens (well not officially citizens as Israel don’t see them as people) water supply just goes to show that Israel is constantly about tit for tat



I’m not saying Palestine get a free pass because of Israel. I’m saying no country at all is above international law. They can’t pick and choose when to flout it. The historical circumstances of how that country was founded is redundant. If anything the historical circumstances make it worse because you would imagine they should know better.


Just as no citizen is above the law no country is above international law.


All it takes is to admit that as much as some Palestinians have committed acts of terror against Israelis - Israel has done the same to Palestinians.

 

[braineclipse]

Great post bar the final paragraph

For Israel it's a fight to defend itself*
For Hamas it's a fight to eradicate the Jewish people

*let's please not get into a discussion on the way Israel has chosen to defend itself, it's complex and impossible to conprehend from the safety of our homes in the UK and other non war zones

I think Israel's actions are very much relevant to understanding the current situation.

 

[DTA]

I want to respond to this in full, but I'm drained. This week has been horrendous for me - two close friends have passed away....

I'm not avoiding your questions because I'm unable to, I've just lost my oomph

If I remember, I'll come back to this later

But, I'm not saying the Israeli government are angels... that though doesn't give you or anyone the right to justify the actions of a terrorist organisation in targeting the wholly innocent, caring, loving, inclusive people of Israel - which has happened, and I'm having to debate with people why this is somehow justified because of the actions of the Israeli government to wage war against terrorists...I know that innocent people are impacted in gaza too but they are NOT the target of the Israeli government and if hamas stopped using them as human shields they'd be unscathed

I’m sorry for your loss, if it was in the Hamas terrorist attack then man I don’t know what to say but I understand your reaction more to what I wrote. But I wasn’t justifying in anyway shape or form what Hamas done, I have multiple times condemned them and not just in here. And I’m absolutely not anti Jewish bruv quite the opposite.

 

[scaramanga]

After having already taken everything and giving nothing in return.
(Oh, the UK still has NI as part of the nation - NI is more than nothing)

The British govt is required to hold NI for the people as long as that is their wish.

Propping it up is a net negative to the economy.