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Next Manager?

BrainOfLevy said:
I'm sorry but I don't think this is fair. The context of the original post was saying if Poch did what he did for us at Everton, would people take him here after that? I'd say 1000 times yes, he did a ridiculously good job. If you take Everton to regular top 3 finishes, 2 title challenges and a CL final with the constraints he operated under, you'd be rightly seen as one of the best managers in the world.

Poch didn't luck into anything. Even if we accept he inherited some good talent with potential, not one of them had reached the level of performance they ultimately reached under Poch. Similarly, we had for a few years been a side that signed good young players and hoped they developed, but we never made a regular play in the top 4, title challenges, deep CL runs etc.

He is the common denominator and the reason they reached that peak level of performance. Maybe one or two of them would have developed into world class players ala Bale and Carrick. But all of them at the same time? That's Poch.
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Everton haven’t had players of the calibre Poch inherited here in a very very long time
Aren’t you one of those that mentioned if only we backed Harry we could have got the title?
I remember the CL quarter final under redknapo actually which until Poch last season was as far as we had ever got wasn’t it?
Poch united the team and the fans. That was his miracle job. We have t had that in a very very long time. There is a lot of blinkers though around what he did and didn’t do. There was so much good but he couldn’t do that without the right players and the core of those players were here before him. The core of the Epsom Poch team was here and in reality only 2 or 3 players in that peak Poch team were his signings (son, Toby, Dier/wanyama). What he mastered was coaching the guys he had to be better. Getting the most out of what he had and it improved the team as a whole. He didn’t build a team like people say, he developed a team. It’s different IMO
Klopp has built a team at pool. I believe 1 of their starters for the first 11 of their league winning team was there before he joined. Pep... we all know what pep has done with a bottomless pit of money.
 
Gazza said:
Its glaringly obvious that our defence is the biggest issue. However if Conte can bring in a few additions and ship out Dier and Sanchez, perhaps get Rodon up and running it would be a step in the right direction. This team can always score goals, but just as likely to concede currently.

Pochettino never replaced Walker and it was telling. We were unplayable at times with Rose and Walker killing players as they paced forward. We were a right menace.
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I think the full backs were really key for Poch's style, once Walker left and Rose went downhill a bit we were never the same team. Trippier couldn't play the style we wanted and had a bad time but he wasn't a bad player - managed to be first choice for a Simeone title winning team after.
 
treepits said:
I don't think I explained myself properly in my original post so if I may...

I wasn't belittling what Poch achieved here, far from it. The man gave me the best moment in my footballing life (possibly my entire life) but I can't shake the feeling it's because he achieved it here that so many fans are desperate for him to return. My point about if he'd done it at Everton was made to emphasise that we possibly wouldn't have fans telling Levy to 'do whatever it takes to bring him home'. Rodgers has achieved similar at Leicester but there isn't a similar clamour about him, he didn't even make the polls shortlist at the top of this page

Conte, imo, is in a bracket of managers above Poch and if we appoint him, a massive amount of credit should go to Levy for pulling it off
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He has to be in the bracket above Poch as he has won titles for several teams in different circumstances
But .... it will still go wrong
 
Mr Gogolak said:
Couldn't agree more: he's considered a top tier manager in England and, again rightly. One of the best managers in the world, for me at least, is someone who's considered one of the very best everywhere. That's something he's yet to achieve. You're correct when you say he was wanted by Manchester United and Arsenal (or so we were told, at least) but look who they went for at the end of the day: two former players with little or no experience (although you could argue Solskjaer achieved some measure of success with Molde). Hardly the best in the world...

I suppose it all depends on where you place the limit. If you consider that 50 or 100 managers make that list, then he could be one of them. If it's a Top 10, I can't agree with that.

But the point about Everton stands: over the past decade, they finished above us once (one place and three points). Hardly fit for a comparison.
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Everton are a fair comparison because they are the closest club to us in terms of investment in the playing side (in fact they probably invested more in combined wages and net transfer spend)
 
P.D. said:
I think the full backs were really key for Poch's style, once Walker left and Rose went downhill a bit we were never the same team. Trippier couldn't play the style we wanted and had a bad time but he wasn't a bad player - managed to be first choice for a Simeone title winning team after.
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That and Dembele. We didnt and never will replace that guy, so ridiculously dominant in the middle of the park and criminally underrated outside of Spurs....
 
Bedfordspurs said:
We needed to change the system to suit
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Or adequately replacing both Wanyama and Dembele when it started to show that they were on the injury slope and bodies couldn't hack the poch machine. It will be one of the biggest thoughts in the back of my mind ... if only we had Dembele in the CL final ...
 
Bedfordspurs said:
He has to be in the bracket above Poch as he has won titles for several teams in different circumstances
But .... it will still go wrong
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The caveat with Conte, is always his temperament. Managing at Spurs is about far more than than the trophies you have won.
 
harr1984 said:
That and Dembele. We didnt and never will replace that guy, so ridiculously dominant in the middle of the park and criminally underrated outside of Spurs....
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And Spurs fans (on forums, rather than match going ones in my experience), but that’s another matter and don’t want to derail the manager thread!
 
thfcsteff said:
I think he could have us playing some great stuff TBH, the biggest concern is Levy and him. We're fortunate to be able to get a manager of his calibre...
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Not looking at digging you out Steff, but just the word fortunate seems a bit harsh on Spurs. We have the best stadium / training ground combo in the world and pay top $ for managers, which makes us attractive to candidates. I “think” we are seen as potentially ready to explode as well, all infrastructure in place and the whole world knows about the NFL link which hasn’t even started to pay dividends yet.

None of that is fortunate, that’s the much maligned Levy’s doing. I think the fortunate part is that Conte became available at a time we are recruiting, which is maybe what you were referring to?
 
Gazza Dazzla said:
Not looking at digging you out Steff, but just the word fortunate seems a bit harsh on Spurs. We have the best stadium / training ground combo in the world and pay top $ for managers, which makes us attractive to candidates. I “think” we are seen as potentially ready to explode as well, all infrastructure in place and the whole world knows about the NFL link which hasn’t even started to pay dividends yet.

None of that is fortunate, that’s the much maligned Levy’s doing. I think the fortunate part is that Conte became available at a time we are recruiting, which is maybe what you were referring to?
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Fair comment in a sense for sure. You'll have seen my thoughts on Levy in that thread, and I agree, the build/facilities are incredible and his children. I still think given our woeful underperformance for the last two seasons, not to mention Levy's increasingly shaky stock within the actual football world (with regards to how he deals with football matters and people) 'fortunate' also has a place.
 
billyiddo said:
Everton are a fair comparison because they are the closest club to us in terms of investment in the playing side (in fact they probably invested more in combined wages and net transfer spend)
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The other thing I think if if we are comparing to Everton is they had their own Kane, but couldn’t keep him. Maybe we were fortunate that Kane arrived with nothing like the Rooney hype so by the time he developed we managed to bust the top 4 consistently and had got himself to the position of being the main man here? We also came close to blowing our first CL appearance in qualifying like they did too!
Whenever I get defensive about our relative achievements, I always point to the fact that we are closer to Everton’s wage spend than Goons, let alone the doped clubs and the massive enterprises of Liverpool and United and you could add their entire playing staff to ours and it would still be less than City or United’s spend! This gap should close as the stadium revenue kicks in of course.
 
Mr Gogolak said:
Kane's raw talent has nothing to do with Pochettino, just like nobody credits Ferguson for Ronaldo's career, and rightly so. Likewise, Guardiola didn't 'make' Messi.
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“Raw talent” is something the players have, it is not something you assign to any manager. However to raw talent you have to add coaching, mentoring, motivation and opportunities. That’s what the top managers do. Ferguson did that for Ronaldo, Guardiola for Messi and Poch for Kane. Why are fans so quick to fall over themselves to prove that Harry Kane would have been the great player he is without the intervention of someone like Poch? I suspect there are many players who have had raw talent but not made the grade because that talent hasn’t been properly harnessed.
Mr Gogolak said:
When it took over, we had already played in the Champions League, something Everton have done once (I think) since the creation of the competition.
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what’s your point? We had also only got there once. We were hardly the regular Champions league team that we became under him. Nor do I remember us ever in our history getting to a final of the European champions Cup. Jose Mourinho, one of the greatest managers in the game couldn’t get us in the top 4. AVB, a Europa cup winner couldn’t get us Champions League football or above Arsenal, Ramos a multiple Europa cup winner and one of the most highly regarded managers in Spain at the time couldn’t get near the top 4. So in that context what Poch achieved here was pretty amazing.

Mr Gogolak said:
We had a great run, again, nobody denies that but he needs to be there on a regular basis to be considered amongst the best.
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Agreed on this point. However, the context around winning trophies with Poch is somewhat unfair given the sides he has managed before PSG, were a relegation threatened and broke Espanyol, a perennial relegation threatened Southampton and Spurs. Not sure who would have won trophies with those clubs on their CV?

Anyway I said I wouldn’t rehash these old arguments. I’ll focus on Conte.
 
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On the Poch defence thing, I would just add that in our best season under him - 16/17 - Dier started 23 matches at centre back, and Davies started more than Rose at left back (most of them in the second half of the season, when we were especially dominant).

I’m not necessarily saying it changes loads, but the Walker-Toby-Jan-Rose narrative isn’t wholly accurate.
 
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