Coronavirus

[DTA]

It's not like they're going to get voted out in the next election cycle.

Any action the Chinese govt makes is entirely without consequence. So yes, I think they'd do whatever the fudge they want to do whenever the fudge they want.

Like I said you have no idea about the chinese government or the chinese mentality as a whole.

No country in the world would have locked down a city the size of London unless it was deadly serious. One of the absolute last of the countries that would have taken that measure would be China.

 

[scaramanga]

Like I said you have no idea about the chinese government or the chinese meteorology as a whole.

No country in the world would have locked down a city the size of London unless it was deadly serious. One of the absolute last of the countries that would have taken that measure would be China.

We have people visit China (not me, fudge that) all the time for supply chain meetings. I know plenty about how China is run, and I know that their govt will make sweeping decisions at the drop of a hat with no regard whatsoever for those it effects.

 

[Hootnow]

Do you think they are purposely leaving them like that though? Or do you think they should have planned for this kind of one in 100 year things? Just in case?

Yes, they should plan for epidemics. That is the point of being in government and leading a country, rather than being a lout who's at the pub every day and thinks they can do a better job that Mourinho or Pep or Johnson. Just like countries prepare for war, natural disasters, cyber attacks etc.

In fact, we do have drills for exactly situations like these. They ran a simulation in 2016, to assess our preparedness for a flu pandemic:

https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...s-show-no-planning-ventilators-event-pandemic

Which found, surprise surprise, we weren't prepared. So what did they change? Nothing.

Outstanding.

 

[markysimmo]

Another thing we've really liked and will keep doing in future

We've had deliveries of meat from the local butcher and also fruit and veg from farms, far far superior to supermarket produce and helping local businesses too

 

[scaramanga]

Yes, they should plan for epidemics. That is the point of being in government and leading a country, rather than being a lout who's at the pub every day and thinks they can do a better job that Mourinho or Pep or Johnson. Just like countries prepare for war, natural disasters, cyber attacks etc.

In fact, we do have drills for exactly situations like these. They ran a simulation in 2016, to assess our preparedness for a flu pandemic:

https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...s-show-no-planning-ventilators-event-pandemic

Which found, surprise surprise, we weren't prepared. So what did they change? Nothing.

Outstanding.

What do you think it would cost to have everything required "just in case?"

And do you think that expenditure would have made it past parliament or the taxpayer? I suspect neither.

 

[DTA]

We have people visit China (not me, fudge that) all the time for supply chain meetings. I know plenty about how China is run, and I know that their govt will make sweeping decisions at the drop of a hat with no regard whatsoever for those it effects.

I will repeat again they wouldn't lock down a city the size of london unless it was grave.

If you believe they would give me examples. They certainly didnt do it sorry SARS.

On or around the 25th of Jan I looked at the Chinese reaction to this and then done some research into what their reaction was to SARS. Those pieces of information were enough for me to know this was extremely serious. And should have been enough for the government to know as well.

 

[scaramanga]

I will repeat again they wouldn't lock down a city the size of london unless it was grave.

If you believe they would give me examples. They certainly didnt do it sorry SARS.

On or around the 25th of Jan I looked at the Chinese reaction to this and then done some research into what their reaction was to SARS. Those pieces of information were enough for me to know this was extremely serious. And should have been enough for the government to know as well.

I disagree. The Chinese govt fights protests with tanks. They regularly arrest foreigners as spies if they suspect them to be acting against the interests of any of their friendly businesses. They continually Welsh on deals unilaterally change any rule that suits at any time.

Nothing they do makes any sense to any rational human being. Being right based on their actions is like a stopped clock being right.

 

[Hootnow]

What do you think it would cost to have everything required "just in case?"

And do you think that expenditure would have made it past parliament or the taxpayer? I suspect neither.

Who said anything about having everything required?

If I think there is a chance my home will be affected by a tornado affecting vital supply routes and society functioning as a whole, do I go out, build myself a proper underground shelter, buy a year's worth of supplies and a small arsenal of weapons?

No but I probably make sure I have at least a small supply of essentials just in case.

 

[scaramanga]

Who said anything about having everything required?

If I think there is a chance my home will be affected by a tornado affecting vital supply routes and society functioning as a whole, do I go out, build myself a proper underground shelter, buy a year's worth of supplies and a small arsenal of weapons?

No but I probably make sure I have at least a small supply of essentials just in case.

Or just live where there are no tornados.

Had you kept that small supply btw, the same people who just want to criticise you because it's politically convenient would be criticising you for not building the shelter, etc.

 

[Hootnow]

We have people visit China (not me, fudge that) all the time for supply chain meetings. I know plenty about how China is run, and I know that their govt will make sweeping decisions at the drop of a hat with no regard whatsoever for those it effects.

The Chinese government is more attuned with what their people want than the caricature many Westerners have built in their heads about that country.

Which is not to say that their government is not a brutal, repressive one.

The Public health approach to this crisis has been significantly better in China (once the central party got involved, as opposed to the Wuhan branch), Singapore, HK, Taiwan and South Korea than anything the West has conjured up so far, even though they've had less time to respond.

I purposely do not include Japan because their testing has been non-existent and I suspect they had Olympics based reasons for not bothering to test.

 

[scaramanga]

The Chinese government is more attuned with what their people want than the caricature many Westerners have built in their heads about their country.

Which is not to say that their government is not a brutal, repressive one.

The Public health approach to this crisis has been significantly better in China (once the central party got involved, as opposed to the Wuhan branch), Singapore, HK, Taiwan and South Korea than anything the West has conjured up so far, even though they've had less time to respond.

I purposely do not include Japan because their testing has been non-existent and I suspect they had Olympics based reasons for not bothering to test.

The Chinese response requires a level of authoritarian rule that couldn't and shouldn't be accepted in this country.

Our government would never move immediately to a lockdown and it would be rightfully ignored if it had. Businesses can't just stop, people can't just stay home for no reason.

A few people dying in this situation is a likely cost of a democratic government and an independently minded populace. That more than a fair trade IMO.

The IOC are clams BTW, I think I've mentioned that in another thread.

 

[Hootnow]

The NHS is suffering because it was not set up to support a global pandemic. Thats forgivable

People would equally moan if we were over subscribed with Drs and Nurses and empty beds just in case and we were taxed to hilt.

The NHS has been suffering for 10 years, with worse performance figures in every single aspect and a war footing becoming the norm, rather than the exception like I said.

Just some comparative figures by the way for healthcare in the UK:

-Healthcare expenditure per capita in the UK is only just above OECD average. However, it is the 2nd lowest in the G7 (only Italy is lower) and is significantly lower than in countries which Brits may consider our equals (France, Germany etc)

-For healthcare spending as a percentage of GDP, again UK is 2nd lowest in the G7 (along with Italy) and are the only 2 countries with a percentage less than 10%. Our % has also gone down since 2013.

-Doctors per 1000 inhabitants? UK comes in at 2.8, lower than the OECD average, Europe, the EU, Euro area and high income countries generally.

-Nurses per 1000 inhabitants? Actually above the OECD average here (slightly). Sadly still below the EU, Euro area and high income countries.

-Hospital beds per 1000 population? We actually have the highest in Europe. I'm just kidding, its actually amongst the lowest in Europe (I've seen either 2nd lowest or 4th lowest)!

-ICU beds per 1000 population? Ah you know where I'm going with this by now. Not quite 2nd lowest here, maybe 6th or 7th lowest. But either wayt, about half of the European average.

-Occupancy rates of our hospital beds are amongst the highest in the developed world as well, a marker of stress on the system.


TLDR: We have amongst the lowest number of doctors, nurses, beds and ICU beds in the developed world. Brits spend less per capita on their health and less as a % of total GDP compared to most of their peers. It is a system under stress at the best of times.

So Brits have two options I guess. They can either fund their health properly, like most other countries. Or they can clap for a couple of minutes and then go back to complaining about waiting 2 weeks for their GP appointment or their grandma's operation being cancelled due to winter pressures when this is all over.

Their choice really.

 

[Hootnow]

Or just live where there are no tornados.

Had you kept that small supply btw, the same people who just want to criticise you because it's politically convenient would be criticising you for not building the shelter, etc.

Impossible when we live in such an interconnected world where tornados freely roam the planet.

Those people can criticise all they want. I'm not doing it for a pat on the back, I'm doing it because as the head of my family (with my wife...) I've made the decision to try to protect my family. Almost like the leader of the country has a responsibility to protect their citizens.

Doing some preparation (as opposed to none) is better. Signing up to the EU ventilator scheme (as opposed to being an idealogical zealot who gets caught with his pants down and has to make up a Redknapp-esque excuse) is better. Seeing that its affecting other countries and starting to maybe think about doing something (rather than waiting for it to start spreading in your own country) is better. I could go on and on.

 

[Hootnow]

The Chinese response requires a level of authoritarian rule that couldn't and shouldn't be accepted in this country.

Our government would never move immediately to a lockdown and it would be rightfully ignored if it had. Businesses can't just stop, people can't just stay home for no reason.

A few people dying in this situation is a likely cost of a democratic government and an independently minded populace. That more than a fair trade IMO.

The IOC are clams BTW, I think I've mentioned that in another thread.

Yet South Korea, Singapore (to an extent), Taiwan are all democracies. HK has some element of citizen feedback. And have controlled this and responded infinitely better than the UK and other Western countries have.

This will kill more than 'a few people' without proper measures.

They may be but I'm talking about Japan and its government here, which has conducted a risible number of tests (about 16,000 when I last checked 3 days ago), giving it an artificially low number of cases.

 

[Kandi1977]

How much of our money should they have blown on something like that just in case?

It's not about blowing money at that time. It's about the fact that many countries have been reducing, or even completly removing any emergency stock of essentials, such as protective gear, flour/grain over the last years, and also not being able to be self supplied with essentials. This has proven to be a massive mistake.

 

[scaramanga]

The NHS has been suffering for 10 years, with worse performance figures in every single aspect and a war footing becoming the norm, rather than the exception like I said.

Just some comparative figures by the way for healthcare in the UK:

-Healthcare expenditure per capita in the UK is only just above OECD average. However, it is the 2nd lowest in the G7 (only Italy is lower) and is significantly lower than in countries which Brits may consider our equals (France, Germany etc)

-For healthcare spending as a percentage of GDP, again UK is 2nd lowest in the G7 (along with Italy) and are the only 2 countries with a percentage less than 10%. Our % has also gone down since 2013.

-Doctors per 1000 inhabitants? UK comes in at 2.8, lower than the OECD average, Europe, the EU, Euro area and high income countries generally.

-Nurses per 1000 inhabitants? Actually above the OECD average here (slightly). Sadly still below the EU, Euro area and high income countries.

-Hospital beds per 1000 population? We actually have the highest in Europe. I'm just kidding, its actually amongst the lowest in Europe (I've seen either 2nd lowest or 4th lowest)!

-ICU beds per 1000 population? Ah you know where I'm going with this by now. Not quite 2nd lowest here, maybe 6th or 7th lowest. But either wayt, about half of the European average.

-Occupancy rates of our hospital beds are amongst the highest in the developed world as well, a marker of stress on the system.


TLDR: We have amongst the lowest number of doctors, nurses, beds and ICU beds in the developed world. Brits spend less per capita on their health and less as a % of total GDP compared to most of their peers. It is a system under stress at the best of times.

So Brits have two options I guess. They can either fund their health properly, like most other countries. Or they can clap for a couple of minutes and then go back to complaining about waiting 2 weeks for their GP appointment or their grandma's operation being cancelled due to winter pressures when this is all over.

Their choice really.

Option 3 is my preferred one.

We stop treating conditions caused by, related to or exacerbated by an inability to balance calories in Vs calories out.

NHS fixed overnight.

Option 4 is good too. That sees us sell off all of the NHS, use the proceeds to remove the disgusting top rate of income tax, set up a system of mandatory health insurance (similar to Germany), and all reap the rewards.

 

[DTA]

Impossible when we live in such an interconnected world where tornados freely roam the planet.

Those people can criticise all they want. I'm not doing it for a pat on the back, I'm doing it because as the head of my family (with my wife...) I've made the decision to try to protect my family. Almost like the leader of the country has a responsibility to protect their citizens.

Doing some preparation (as opposed to none) is better. Signing up to the EU ventilator scheme (as opposed to being an idealogical zealot who gets caught with his pants down and has to make up a Redknapp-esque excuse) is better. Seeing that its affecting other countries and starting to maybe think about doing something (rather than waiting for it to start spreading in your own country) is better. I could go on and on.

This is a great post.

 

[scaramanga]

It's not about blowing money at that time. It's about the fact that many countries have been reducing, or even completly removing any emergency stock of essentials, such as protective gear, flour/grain over the last years, and also not being able to be self supplied with essentials. This has proven to be a massive mistake.

Not if it saved money.

 

[scaramanga]

This is a great post.

From someone knowledgeable but very keen on spending other people's money

 

[Kandi1977]

Not if it saved money.

It's peanuts.