Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[thfcsteff]

How about the idea that Poch's relative success with the club has been largely down to high strength artificial enhancements- and now, after a few years of carte blanche use of it, at others expense, the players are retracting from it for obvious fears of the long term health implications.

I'd be very, very careful about what you're implying here.

 

[billyiddo]

I heard Poch made a deal with the devil and has run out of players' babies to sacrifice to keep him in good results

 

[NickTB]

How about the idea that Poch's relative success with the club has been largely down to high strength artificial enhancements- and now, after a few years of carte blanche use of it, at others expense, the players are retracting from it for obvious fears of the long term health implications.

Wow!

 

[Raziel]

Raziel’s off because they believe that some people support the manager more than the club.

Nayim has deployed the “virtue signalling” missile!!!

I (in poor taste) posted a huge Pulis dingdong pic.

Raziel said something which I personally found very instructive. “Facts versus excuses”...

Some people look at the facts available in their immediate context.
Some people look at the facts available and apply wider context whilst knowing we don’t have all the facts.

I think Poch is dividing people along the lines in which people naturally work.

I have been married for 22 years. I would say (for a variety of reasons) years 19 to 21 1/2 were terrible. On the face of it, the solution was “clear” but only we knew (deep down) that there was deeper context, and that when it fudging hurt the most was when we had to dig so much deeper to get through. I could’ve easily chucked the towel in, because for a year I forgot I loved her, PLUS there were other opportunities lurking in the background. But when it was at its bricktiest, when it was as bad as it could’ve got, we realized we had duty to the vow we’d made, a duty not to give up because deep down we love each other. Some adjustments later, and the last 6 months have been our best since the first six years of marriage.

I believe in searching fully for all possible reasons, especially when someone has proven themselves so overwhemingly before. My nature is not to give up when it goes a bit “toilet”. That is me. You can call it straw man or loving one thing more than another or whatever you fudging want, this is who I am, this is how I live my life with my family and friends, and this is how I choose to support my football club, which statistically will be the longest love I ever have in my mortal life.

If you aren’t that way, great. Your choice. But spare a fudging thought for those of us who are before you throw cheap jabs around.

What you might see as “his fault”, “lost it”, “total idiocy” is mitigated for me by the man who helped us achieve things I did not think I would see. I am no fool. I know he won’t be here forever, but if this beatdown continues, I will find myself wishing he had quit in June and left with his head high rather than showing loyalty and dedication to the club and cause.

I will endeavour to show the same respect (I believe Deano can attest that I am capable).

must not get sucked in …. ok .. one last time (famous last words)

I'm going to ask you to think on this before your response

You have just compared a man who is paid to do a job (and failing miserably at this point in time) to the person that you committed your life to, that inherently is the difference between us.

I like Poch and I'm grateful for everything he has helped us achieve, but the goal has always been the growth and success of Spurs, not Poch, and I have no inherent loyalty to him nor does he "deserve" it, he is paid millions to do something he currently isn't, hence the my view point.

Your wife is the goal of you marriage, it doesn't exist without her (and congrats on sorting it out) but you see the difference vs. an employee of a club?

 

[Glenda's Legs]

TYou could be right on Dier but you could also be wrong. Either way, I don't see what good comes of putting that situation out in public to sell a few books. The player must have been embarrassed at best or feeling undermined at worst.

I don't want to detract from the wider Poch debate here, but on the topic of Dier and The Book : didn't it come out that pretty much the whole Dier story was related to Balague (sp?) by Dier himself? The Book was written in a very weird (and awful) way, as if everything was spoken by Poch, but that wasn't necessarily the case, players and colleagues also had input as sources.
I think if the book had been an issue we would have seen more of a reaction to it at the time from the players. It feels like a bit of a red herring to me, albeit still an odd time to have published such a tome.

 

[elyid]

How about the idea that Poch's relative success with the club has been largely down to high strength artificial enhancements- and now, after a few years of carte blanche use of it, at others expense, the players are retracting from it for obvious fears of the long term health implications.

Yerba Mate?

[Ive been drinking it a couple years and mentioned to a friend last week that the “kick” has worn off. Maybe that’s what is wrong with Spurs...]

 

[StephenH]

I heard Poch made a deal with the devil and has run out of players' babies to sacrifice to keep him in good results

It’s ok he now uses their pets if pushed

 

[thfcsteff]

I'm going to ask you to think on this before your response

You have just compared a man who is paid to do a job (and failing miserably at this point in time) to the person that you committed your life to, that inherently is the difference between us.


Your wife is the goal of you marriage, it doesn't exist without her (and congrats on sorting it out) but you see the difference vs. an employee of a club?

If that is what you got from what I wrote, then either you
A) don’t understand the point I’m making about how I live my life
B) I didn’t make the point clearly enough.

Given that I made a commitment to try and be better in these “discussions” I will give this one more go.

First of all, my wife is NOT “the goal of my marriage”, in fact, I am not even sure what that means. OUR relationship, it’s health and it’s maintenance is the “goal” of my marriage, to try and be the best it can be, and to work very hard when it isn’t (for better or for worse, etc). Thank you for your faint praise BTW, but you can have it back.

Again, if you think I am comparing my wife to Mauricio Pochettino, then you have absolutely failed to comprehend what the comparison was about.

I was explaining that the way I live my life (which, perhaps surprisingly to you, is also the way I choose to support the football team that has been in my life for many decades) is to take every rough patch and poor encounter and view them with a context beyond “the moment”. If I had a boss who was a dingdong for a few months but had been marvelous for a few years prior, rather than marching into HR and trying to get them sacked, I would be inclined to consider WHY such a change had taken place, and give them the chance to turn it around.
It is not about “comparing my wife to Pochettino”, it is a PRINCIPLE I live by in many situations.

Life is about a lot fudging more than “goals”
and “high paid jobs”. It is about joy. Happiness. Hope. Life!

Pochettino is (as I hope you are finally understanding) not being compared to my marriage in such a sense.
But it is undeniable that Pochettino’s work with us has provided more moments of deep joy, pride and happiness than I have felt at this club since the Burkinshaw days. So when I say I believe he deserves a chance to turn it around, I base it on the fact that last June (not even 6 months ago) I was enjoying the pinnacle final of my Spurs supporting life. And I personally cannot countenance theorizing that someone has just lost the plot and should be sacked after all the years he has built here. You can call me naive, you can disagree, but you cannot call me wrong.
It is how I live my life, how I deal with situations.

I chose to share the story about my marriage as it felt like a good example of how bad patches deserve to be ridden through IF the overall past has been positive and healthy. Of course it was always open to such misinterpretation and I probably should’ve expected as much.

If you choose to respond, I will now ask you to likewise think on this before you respond.

You have only seen in my example a comparison between my wife and Pochettino. That, inherently, is the actual difference between us...

 

[Raziel]

If that is what you got from what I wrote, then either you
A) don’t understand the point I’m making about how I live my life
B) I didn’t make the point clearly enough.

Given that I made a commitment to try and be better in these “discussions” I will give this one more go.

First of all, my wife is NOT “the goal of my marriage”, in fact, I am not even sure what that means. OUR relationship, it’s health and it’s maintenance is the “goal” of my marriage, to try and be the best it can be, and to work very hard when it isn’t (for better or for worse, etc). Thank you for your faint praise BTW, but you can have it back.

Again, if you think I am comparing my wife to Mauricio Pochettino, then you have absolutely failed to comprehend what the comparison was about.

I was explaining that the way I live my life (which, perhaps surprisingly to you, is also the way I choose to support the football team that has been in my life for many decades) is to take every rough patch and poor encounter and view them with a context beyond “the moment”. If I had a boss who was a dingdong for a few months but had been marvelous for a few years prior, rather than marching into HR and trying to get them sacked, I would be inclined to consider WHY such a change had taken place, and give them the chance to turn it around.
It is not about “comparing my wife to Pochettino”, it is a PRINCIPLE I live by in many situations.

Life is about a lot fudging more than “goals”
and “high paid jobs”. It is about joy. Happiness. Hope. Life!

Pochettino is (as I hope you are finally understanding) not being compared to my marriage in such a sense.
But it is undeniable that Pochettino’s work with us has provided more moments of deep joy, pride and happiness than I have felt at this club since the Burkinshaw days. So when I say I believe he deserves a chance to turn it around, I base it on the fact that last June (not even 6 months ago) I was enjoying the pinnacle final of my Spurs supporting life. And I personally cannot countenance theorizing that someone has just lost the plot and should be sacked after all the years he has built here. You can call me naive, you can disagree, but you cannot call me wrong.
It is how I live my life, how I deal with situations.

I chose to share the story about my marriage as it felt like a good example of how bad patches deserve to be ridden through IF the overall past has been positive and healthy. Of course it was always open to such misinterpretation and I probably should’ve expected as much.

If you choose to respond, I will now ask you to likewise think on this before you respond.

You have only seen in my example a comparison between my wife and Pochettino. That, inherently, is the actual difference between us...

Mate, seemingly we don't communicate well and you seem quite aggravated with me (the praise was legitimate, up to you how you want to take it), so maybe we just let it go.

I generally don't think I misunderstood you, it's more about how you apply principles

- But to be clear, your wife and your marriage are the same thing, one doesn't exist without the other, call it relationship goals, happiness, whatever one requires the other.
- There is no such link between Poch and Spurs, hence my call out, Poch goes tomorrow, Spurs remains ..
- And on top of that, you don't pay people in your life to participate, hence you owe them some empathy ..

but to separate the personal and use the professional example

- If I had a good boss who suddenly became poor, my response would depend on the impact he is having. If he was impacting my ability to make money, pay my bills, then yes I want him out (and I might still like him as a person)
- Poch is paid for results, he is not delivering and it's impacting the club, players and fans ..

You may choose to leave your life around less "goal oriented" objectives and if that works for you, well done. But fundamentally that is not how being the manager of a top 4 PL club with any level of ambition operates.

So again, no aggravation with you, no aggravation with Poch, just a very simple view that he is failing in a position that is measured by results and has no place for like/empathy/etc.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

How about the idea that Poch's relative success with the club has been largely down to high strength artificial enhancements- and now, after a few years of carte blanche use of it, at others expense, the players are retracting from it for obvious fears of the long term health implications.

And Lamela was the lab rat that took the brunt (and the pain) of research?

 

[Glenda's Legs]

How about the idea that Poch's relative success with the club has been largely down to high strength artificial enhancements- and now, after a few years of carte blanche use of it, at others expense, the players are retracting from it for obvious fears of the long term health implications.

So Leicester's PEDs were better than ours.
FFS, we can't get anything right.

 

[SteveAWOL]

It was only a matter of time before those steroid lemons caught up with him!

 

[Finney Is Back]

What is mischievous is your persistence in sidestepping the details of it.

Let me guess, "well Poch went 4231 against Brighton and look what happened there"

Is it 4 or 5 times now I've made the point that the effort simply wasn't there, which was the primary issue, and formation was miles away from the main issue on the day, and you've not so much as responded?

But then the whole formation red herring comes up again later.

Can we break out of this flimflam?

Not seen one person say "the formation is the only problem" or even "formation is the biggest problem"

Seen plenty of people saying "THAT formation with THESE players doesnt work"

Problem is, if the virtue signalling supporters here admit that (and speaking broadly here, not just Finney) they then have to admit a failure of the manager.

Can't be having that now can we? Much better to set up diversionary arguments against points people arent even making

Indeed you have made the point 4 or 5 times that the effort wasn't there.... but you making that same point 4 or 5 times doesn't automatically make it fact. So just to be clear here.... the players have been trying their hearts out when playing the diamond but then when put back into what is apparently their preferred 4-2-3-1 formation they decided not to bother explicitly for that game. It's a bit of a stretch isn't it? Why were they putting the effort in before when playing a formation they don't believe in only to down tools immediately after reverting to their preferred formation?

My point here is that the formation is not the issue. Our performances against Brighton and Watford where we moved away from the diamond were as bad (and actually worse) than our other performances this season.

I'm not particularly happy with Pochettino at the moment and have no problems for people to call out any perceived failings. However I think it is clear that we're not performing well in whatever formation he shapes us in. You may disagree but my thoughts are that we have three main problems currently and none of them relate to the formation we play. I think in order of what is hurting us the most:

1. Players being selected who no longer want to be here and are playing well within themselves (Toby certainly, perhaps Eriksen, maybe Rose)
2. Players who are broken or out of form/confidence/ (Dier, Wanyama, Sanchez, Kane?, Dele? perhaps Rose again? maybe even Winks?)
3. Players without any/much experience at the club still acclimatising or being injured (N'Dombele, Lo Celso, Foyth, Sessegnon).

The first problem would seem easily solvable and I am baffled as to why Pochettino is continuing to pick players who want to leave the club. All I can think is that he feels a combination of problems 2 and 3 are forcing him to do this?

 

[DeanoAustin]

I don't want to detract from the wider Poch debate here, but on the topic of Dier and The Book : didn't it come out that pretty much the whole Dier story was related to Balague (sp?) by Dier himself? The Book was written in a very weird (and awful) way, as if everything was spoken by Poch, but that wasn't necessarily the case, players and colleagues also had input as sources.
I think if the book had been an issue we would have seen more of a reaction to it at the time from the players. It feels like a bit of a red herring to me, albeit still an odd time to have published such a tome.

I didn’t hear that about Dier but you could be right – seems odd the player would volunteer information in that way though.

On the book, there is a bit of hindsight being applied and I’m one of the chief culprits to be fair. I thought it was a terrible idea at the time but when results were good I didn’t point to it. The thing is though, looking back, I think it eroded trust and helped start the decline. The Walker stuff I thought was particularly poor as were some of the comments about Sissoko. As other things have come out with Poch’s strange public utterances, I think maybe the book takes on greater significance. That the players look and say “This fella is being a hypocrite. He hung Walker out to dry over loyalty and now here he is saying he might leave/the squad isn’t the best he’s had/he’s no longer the manager/he f**ks off to Barcelona after the CL”. Then he starts to become flaky and inconsistent in the heads of players. Then the lemons and aura stuff, previously maybe seen as an eccentricity of a football genius, is looked at as a further sign of his flakiness and illogical behaviour.

I think some of these seeds were sewn a while ago and as Poch has become more inconsistent and contradictory, these things are now coming back to bite him.

 

[Finney Is Back]

DOES ANYONE ELSE REMEMBER THE Saudi Sportswashing Machine GAME???

Our performance was better in the Saudi Sportswashing Machine game than both the Brighton and Watford games. XG scores for all three games below (Spurs XG always first):
Saudi Sportswashing Machine: 1.26 – 0.51
Brighton: 0.48 – 2.6
Watford – 0.89 – 0.85

(The above also ignores the blatant penalty not awarded to us against Saudi Sportswashing Machine and the blatant one we should've conceded against Watford).

 

[Finney Is Back]

must not get sucked in …. ok .. one last time (famous last words)

I'm going to ask you to think on this before your response

You have just compared a man who is paid to do a job (and failing miserably at this point in time) to the person that you committed your life to, that inherently is the difference between us.

I like Poch and I'm grateful for everything he has helped us achieve, but the goal has always been the growth and success of Spurs, not Poch, and I have no inherent loyalty to him nor does he "deserve" it, he is paid millions to do something he currently isn't, hence the my view point.

Your wife is the goal of you marriage, it doesn't exist without her (and congrats on sorting it out) but you see the difference vs. an employee of a club?

I think it is a fair enough metaphor though. At present we do not know if this is a 'bad patch' or a unrecoverable decline. I tend to agree with Steff that the credit Pochettino has in the bank probably makes it worth us being sure it is the latter rather than the former before we bring in somebody else who in all likelihood proably isn't likely to do better than Pochettino has.

 

[Gazza]

Will get a result that will paper over the crack or used as a springboard … that's the way things work in football … no in the middle sort of explanation just joy or criticism.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Indeed you have made the point 4 or 5 times that the effort wasn't there.... but you making that same point 4 or 5 times doesn't automatically make it fact. So just to be clear here.... the players have been trying their hearts out when playing the diamond but then when put back into what is apparently their preferred 4-2-3-1 formation they decided not to bother explicitly for that game. It's a bit of a stretch isn't it? Why were they putting the effort in before when playing a formation they don't believe in only to down tools immediately after reverting to their preferred formation?

Again, very deftly dodging the entire point in its context, but focusing only on one aspect. Like I said, mischievous.

Brighton beat us utterly and comprehensively. Been trying to find somewhere to verify, but commentary said they even out ran us by 4km.

Formation was never an issue against Brighton, application and effort were, and its as clear as the nose on your face to anyone watching the game.

Could have been 433/442/diamond/whatever, if the players collectively just dont bother - the formation is irrelevant.

Lets see, which one fits better?

Finney = "We were playing diamond and working really hard, and then the players were gifted their preferred formation and didnt bother playing, obviously diamonds are great and that", or

- Diamond clearly wasnt working for the players, despite their effort
- Diamond was persisted with
- It didnt improve
- Poch set us up with a poor diamond in our biggest CL game of the season, and it was so successful the players - by his and their words - GAVE UP.
- Team doesnt turn up against Brighton, collectively massively lacking in effort.

You really think, after the 7-2 mauling at Bayern, when players were dead on their feet by half time, and have publicly spoken against the tactics - you think after that there are no reasons why their effort/performance might dip?

It was a horrible night, I can understand why you might want to live in denial it even happened, but lets be honest - it would appear to be a turning point. And I dont think its unfair to think it played a much larger part in proceedings than a switch to 4231.

My point here is that the formation is not the issue. Our performances against Brighton and Watford where we moved away from the diamond were as bad (and actually worse) than our other performances this season.

The point here is that the diamond was a problem, and now things are broken - possibly irrecoverably.

To deny that is just dishonest. It wasnt working, it wasnt improving.

You are right - the players really were trying, Im sure they were. And you are right - performances have worsened since we switched back.

Your insistence on denying there were issues with the formation, based on continued poor (worsening?) performances is where I think you are wrong.

And while we dont seem to agree on much recently, I credit you as far to smart to miss the obvious.

I'm not particularly happy with Pochettino at the moment and have no problems for people to call out any perceived failings. However I think it is clear that we're not performing well in whatever formation he shapes us in. You may disagree but my thoughts are that we have three main problems currently and none of them relate to the formation we play. I think in order of what is hurting us the most:

1. Players being selected who no longer want to be here and are playing well within themselves (Toby certainly, perhaps Eriksen, maybe Rose)
2. Players who are broken or out of form/confidence/ (Dier, Wanyama, Sanchez, Kane?, Dele? perhaps Rose again? maybe even Winks?)
3. Players without any/much experience at the club still acclimatising or being injured (N'Dombele, Lo Celso, Foyth, Sessegnon).

The first problem would seem easily solvable and I am baffled as to why Pochettino is continuing to pick players who want to leave the club. All I can think is that he feels a combination of problems 2 and 3 are forcing him to do this?

I agree they are all issues.

I think the greater issue is Poch has lost it. I think he lost it last season, probably the CL as the tipping point.

He dropped the ball, seems muddled, indifferent, and now quite desperate. I think THAT is the real problem. Truthfully.

The diamond was a symptom of Pochs confused approach, his lack of direction, but I think we are passed the point now where simply switching formation to suit the players is going to work (and, really, it shouldnt have been an issue in the first place).

So its odd you are so stuck on that specific thing. Bigger picture is - chances of Poch surviving at this point are slim to none. And despite a raft of issues and complications, its basically self inflicted.

It looks like he has lost that bit of magic that bonds the players to his will, and lets be honest - that is very rarely fixed.

 

[SylDave]

Our performance was better in the Saudi Sportswashing Machine game than both the Brighton and Watford games. XG scores for all three games below (Spurs XG always first):
Saudi Sportswashing Machine: 1.26 – 0.51
Brighton: 0.48 – 2.6
Watford – 0.89 – 0.85

(The above also ignores the blatant penalty not awarded to us against Saudi Sportswashing Machine and the blatant one we should've conceded against Watford).

I think it’s as simple as before and after Bayern, before most of the players were still playing for him despite the bad shape and tactics, Bayern seemed to be the straw that broke the camels back, Sissoko came out after the game with the first comments about the diamond, against Brighton and Watford they looked like a group that have downed tools.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

@Finney Is Back - I should say, I didnt watch Watford, but everything Ive read on it sounds much more "Brighton" than pre-Bayern.

Would seem to indicate that the Intl break didnt give a chance for everyone to come back for a clean slate. Which for me begins to sound terminal...

Ill be watching tonight hoping, of course, to see us turn up, fit and focused, and attacking the game with a real plan and solid set up.

Though Id be lying if I said I expected it.