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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

scaramanga said:
The statecraft bit was convincing Leo he matters like proper leaders of big countries do.

The rest of it might be as you've said - you seem to feel it's a problem if it is?
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A problem that a deal is not an option? Well it was the will of the people to leave with a deal, so there is that. ;)
 
Rorschach said:
It is just a repackaged max-fac proposal which has so many fundamental flaws in it as to not warrant serious discussion. It shows where the Tories want this to go - hard brexit, low reg, low wage, blah blah. The border and all the associated problems are just a fly in their ointment. They'd eject NI from the union in a nanosecond if they could.
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I don't think Javid got the memo on this bit before his speech.
 
scaramanga said:
Unless the EU wants to tear up the peace agreement it'll have to.
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This one again! No one will buy that transparent bit of blame-shifting. Well maybe a few leavers, but no one who isn't under the influence of ERG brainwashing. That proposal today is not a serious one and will be rejected.

Anyway, I don't think it will matter a whole lot as it is too late for any new deal, stupid or not. Unless Boris comes up with a legal trick no one has thought of yet, which could happen I suppose, we're looking at an extension. One prediction I will make is the following election will be the most divisive ever.
 
I think they did raise one interesting point that's not been discussed much before, in what way can the UK leave the customs union in a way that's acceptable to the EU? Otherwise I think Boris is saying if they can't offer such a solution then there's no point trying to negotiate a deal. I still don't think they'll accept this deal either.
 
P.D. said:
I think they did raise one interesting point that's not been discussed much before, in what way can the UK leave the customs union in a way that's acceptable to the EU? Otherwise I think Boris is saying if they can't offer such a solution then there's no point trying to negotiate a deal. I still don't think they'll accept this deal either.
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Why would the EU allow us to leave the customs union? It permanently neuters us. That's the whole point
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
...so many reasons to be confident about our country and its direction and yet we are like a world class athlete with a pebble in our shoe, there is one part of the British system that seems to be on the blink.

If parliament were a laptop, then the screen would be showing the pizza wheel of doom. If parliament were a school, Ofsted would be shutting it down. If parliament were a reality TV show the whole lot of us would have been voted out of the jungle by now. But at least we could have watched the speaker being forced to eat a kangaroo testicle. And the sad truth is that voters have more say over I’m a celebrity than they do over this House of Commons. Which refuses to deliver Brexit, refuses to do anything constructive and refuses to have an election just at the moment when voters are desperate for us to focus on their priorities.


Have to say I liked this bit
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All that is true and has been for a lot longer than Brexit has been going on.
Politics is fudged, we need a clear out of the whole bloody lot of the self serving expletives.
 
Parliament has worked perfectly over Brexit, as its function is in essence checks and balances.
What was the problem was the referendum format it should have been thought out much better and voted on before the vote!
I'm surprised there is not a body that oversees and check the format of such important votes.
The ERG has been behind most of if not all the upset we have seen by deliberately not having a pre-agreed outline ’deal’ options with EU in the original referendum.
 
Rorschach said:
This one again! No one will buy that transparent bit of blame-shifting. Well maybe a few leavers, but no one who isn't under the influence of ERG brainwashing. That proposal today is not a serious one and will be rejected.

Anyway, I don't think it will matter a whole lot as it is too late for any new deal, stupid or not. Unless Boris comes up with a legal trick no one has thought of yet, which could happen I suppose, we're looking at an extension. One prediction I will make is the following election will be the most divisive ever.
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This is politics - impressions are all that actually count. Presented properly, this will look like the EU putting up a border that we've insisted we won't put up.

You're right about a divisive election - that's what happens when parliament tries to subvert the will of the people.
 
Gutter Boy said:
Why would the EU allow us to leave the customs union? It permanently neuters us. That's the whole point
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That was the point, from their side they understandably don't want us too but can't reasonably say they won't accept any deal that lets us out of the customs union.
 
scaramanga said:
This is politics - impressions are all that actually count. Presented properly, this will look like the EU putting up a border that we've insisted we won't put up.

You're right about a divisive election - that's what happens when parliament tries to subvert the will of the people.
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Yes this is true, perception matters, but reality is far easier to spin than another fantasy. Another unicorn story won't change too many minds. And indeed whoever drives the original narrative really takes control of the message. The simple fact is that everyone already knows this a problem of the UK's own making, not Ireland's or the EU, and this truth has already taken hold. Presenting it now as something else will change nobody's mind except a few right wing loons. And add to that the UK government are proposing border infrastructure in their new border plan and have admitted it is required in operation yellow hammer, then you are really talking about epic levels of gas-lighting and for a solution that achieves nothing

In my opinion, there are proposals that can be made to make it look like a good compromise was achieved, and with some careful language and the right amount of caveats might persuade enough of the right people. This taking control of our borders except for at the actual border is not one of them.

And the will of a people was a deal, as that is what leave campaigned on, so it is the government's no deal strategy that is subverting the will of the UK people. Sorry I couldn't let that slide :p.
 
Rorschach said:
Yes this is true, perception matters, but reality is far easier to spin than another fantasy. Another unicorn story won't change too many minds. And indeed whoever drives the original narrative really takes control of the message. The simple fact is that everyone already knows this a problem of the UK's own making, not Ireland's or the EU, and this truth has already taken hold. Presenting it now as something else will change nobody's mind except a few right wing loons. And add to that the UK government are proposing border infrastructure in their new border plan and have admitted it is required in operation yellow hammer, then you are really talking about epic levels of gas-lighting and for a solution that achieves nothing

In my opinion, there are proposals that can be made to make it look like a good compromise was achieved, and with some careful language and the right amount of caveats might persuade enough of the right people. This taking control of our borders except for at the actual border is not one of them.
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What are those compromises? Bearing in mind the govt needs the DUP votes (because May's a fudging idiot) and this is about as close to the line as we can sail with them on board.

Rorschach said:
And the will of a people was a deal, as that is what leave campaigned on, so it is the government's no deal strategy that is subverting the will of the UK people. Sorry I couldn't let that slide :p.
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Actually the will of the people was to leave the EU - with or without a deal both meet that remit, although with a deal is obviously most people's preference. The only option that goes against that will is remaining, which is what parliament is clearly forcing us into.
 
P.D. said:
That was the point, from their side they understandably don't want us too but can't reasonably say they won't accept any deal that lets us out of the customs union.
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Not in exact words, but that's exactly what they are saying. If their two red lines are the EU has to have a customs border, but Ireland can't have a customs border, there's no other way.
 
scaramanga said:
What are those compromises? Bearing in mind the govt needs the DUP votes (because May's a fudging idiot) and this is about as close to the line as we can sail with them on board.


Actually the will of the people was to leave the EU - with or without a deal both meet that remit, although with a deal is obviously most people's preference. The only option that goes against that will is remaining, which is what parliament is clearly forcing us into.
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Well now that you asked, I think you have to try and look at it from what's best for the UK/or what the UK voted for versus what is good for the Tories. These are not one and the same and your post alludes to that also. The only good state-crafting I've seen Boris do is to conflate these somewhat disparate agendas to the point that they seem the same.

If you can step back and look at it in somewhat neutral terms then one thing appears obvious to me. NI is not the real problem as there is an elegant solution to this already. Just give them a NI only backstop already agreed, which frankly they all want anyway, and that issue is boxed off. That is the best for the UK way of looking at it, but the Tories have chosen this as their battleground for purely party reasons. I think they could easily spin this solution as a win if they wanted to.

As you say the DUP are a big impediment, and have been making arguments in bad faith (no pun intended) all along. They spent 2+ years saying no border in the Irish sea and low and behold, now they think it is fine because the new proposal gives them the power to veto the fudge out of everything. The DUP just want power for their own ends. Will the Tories ditch them? Unlikely as you say as they need the numbers, so on we go with the party politics rather than trying to actually negotiate a solution.

And just to correct your people voted for no deal too - they didn't. That came later ;). Anyway that's enough from me on this brick.
 
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