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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

Raziel said:
I completely disagree with this on so many levels.

- The players are checked out on him, it's his role to keep players motivated and playing (fudging Harry managed to keep Modric playing in his last year)
- Why does Poch need "fresh blood"? because he can't motivate players? if you tell me we need a RB and another CB/CM I'm ok with that, but there is a very good core of players here, no clean out needed.
- People keep using the no signings windows as a crutch for Poch, Glenn Hoddle (who I think knows more about the club than us) was adamant that Poch was offered signings in that summer and refused.
- The manager conversation is also a red hearing, Chelsea is a poison chalice due to the fact that they have had almost every top manager and have a transfer ban, United is just a circus. Allegri and Jose are on the market (just as examples) and like their personalities/styles or not, you would be pretty hard pressed to argue they wouldn't get more out of this squad.

I appreciate what Poch has done, but there are huge problems in any attempt to defend his current position

- 19 points from 17 games across 2 seasons is unacceptable, as is our away record, as is losing to a team 2 leagues down.
- Not getting the most out of 6 attacking players that are PL proven goal scorers (no other club in league has 3 players that are capable of 20+ and 3 players than do 10+ w/assists)
- And in the players leaving, Eriksen/Toby could have happened to any manager, but Jan? multiple times Jan has indicated he would like to play with Spurs until he isn't good enough anymore, too old. He's never pushed for money, never made noise yet somehow Poch has allowed something to get in the way, and I suspect that is a bigger problem in the dressing room than the just ambitious lot.

The pragmatic decision is super clear .. and it wouldn't be "give him a chance"
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So he could motivate the players for four years but not the last year?

Has he lost the skill to motivate or do some players no longer want to be here?

His strategy very much needs everyone to be on the same page. If not, it effects him as much it does the team. Maybe it shouldn't but that is the way he is.
 
Grays_1890 said:
The players have checked out on the club not Poch, he is left with players that don't want to be at Spurs and players he does not want, that's a fact.

I know 400% that the players who are winding down their contract (I told people Toby would stay and got panned) these players feel disillusioned because they feel their contribution to Spurs and the success including the commercial success in which their images have been used, in which their performances have given us top 4 every year which has lead to the money and commercial success and record incomes, they feel they deserve/deserved a larger slice of the pie financially.

Eriksen, Toby and Jan feel they have been a major factor on the Spurs you see now and feel they have not been treated fairly.

The others like Wanyama etc, Poch does not want them anymore but he is stuck with them.
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So?

Apologies if that seems confrontational, but really - so?

When he came into the club he managed the squad superbly, managed the bad eggs, the egos, the entitled, and worked with what he had to great effect.

We know from experience he has the ability to do it.

While I can completely understand where you say the players are coming from, all I really see is a situation for the manager to manage. Which he has done before, but somehow seems incapable now.

Wanyama is a great example. Tried to get rid of him, failed, brought him back into the squad. Ok, Im fine with that, it happens. Then brings him on in a game, making a key substitution when:
- Wanyama is clearly unfit, or simply not up to it
- Dier is on the bench. At the very worst also unfit, but at least a long reliable player
- Skipp is on the bench. Perhaps not like-for-like as the other two, but also a very capable, eager, young player (just the type Poch is supposed to prefer)
- That particular substitution was completely unwarranted.

That sub did not need to be made. That particular player did not need to be selected. And the consequence of it was negative to our performance and result as a team.

NONE of that has anything to do with players wanting to be here or not, and everything to do with the manager and how he is currently running the team.

I have no doubt it is less than ideal to have players angling for moves. For example, Im quite sure Eriksen has checked out completely at this point. It cant be easy trying to get the best out of them. However, its his job to get the most out of the players he has, and to protect the squad harmony.

Which means he needs to bring back that driven and ruthless streak he seems to have lost. Even last night his thinking appeared to be to wait for the transfer window to sort it out, that really cant be acceptable can it?
 
If one of the prevailing theories is that the squad needs a major overhaul and investment (which I don't agree with), surely that opens up the question of who should be overseeing and spending said funds.

Our squad isn't old, if we're going to need changing up once players get over 26, I don't see how that method is any more sustainable and likely to bring in trophies than an experienced winner coming in and buying ready made players.

At some point now or in the future the manger is going to have to manage what is available to him and get the best out of them.
 
Bedfordspurs said:
Sorry are you saying the players aren’t accountable then for not turning up last night?
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Accountable yes but responsible no.
Poch played 2 first teams players and all the rest were young or returning from injury, he lost.
He is a cup serial offender for some. I'm a top 4 man so not so miffed.
 
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Grays_1890 said:
The players have checked out on the club not Poch, he is left with players that don't want to be at Spurs and players he does not want, that's a fact.

I know 400% that the players who are winding down their contract (I told people Toby would stay and got panned) these players feel disillusioned because they feel their contribution to Spurs and the success including the commercial success in which their images have been used, in which their performances have given us top 4 every year which has lead to the money and commercial success and record incomes, they feel they deserve/deserved a larger slice of the pie financially.

Eriksen, Toby and Jan feel they have been a major factor on the Spurs you see now and feel they have not been treated fairly.

The others like Wanyama etc, Poch does not want them anymore but he is stuck with them.
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Again, have to disagree.

- Nobody came for Toby, simple as that, or more simply, nobody came that he was interested in going to.
- Jan is a Poch created problem, Jan has never wanted to leave, never wanted more money (so not sure where this "not treated fairly" view comes from. He has repeatedly said he will like to play for Spurs until his legs goes.

The player checked out on club theory is broken by Jan, the problem with Jan is Poch not the club, just go back to the bs about him not being picked because fo fitness and Jan's public responses

The big worry here is Toby, Jan, Rose, Eriksen don't believe in Poch's vision anymore or his ability to take us up another level, easy to write those guys off as greedy players who want a bigger slice, but none of them have that history.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
So?

Apologies if that seems confrontational, but really - so?

When he came into the club he managed the squad superbly, managed the bad eggs, the egos, the entitled, and worked with what he had to great effect.

We know from experience he has the ability to do it.

While I can completely understand where you say the players are coming from, all I really see is a situation for the manager to manage. Which he has done before, but somehow seems incapable now.

Wanyama is a great example. Tried to get rid of him, failed, bought him back into the squad. Ok, Im fine with that, it happens. Then brings him on in a game, making a key substitution when:
- Wanyama is clearly unfit, or simply not up to it
- Dier is on the bench. At the very worst also unfit, but at least a long reliable player
- Skipp is on the bench. Perhaps not like-for-like as the other two, but also a very capable, eager, young player (just the type Poch is supposed to prefer)
- That particular substitution was completely unwarranted.

That sub did not need to be made. That particular player did not need to be selected. And the consequence of it was negative to our performance and result as a team.

NONE of that has anything to do with players wanting to be here or not, and everything to do with the manager and how he is currently running the team.

I have no doubt it is less than ideal to have players angling for moves. For example, Im quite sure Eriksen has checked out completely at this point. It cant be easy trying to get the best out of them. However, its his job to get the most out of the players he has, and to protect the squad harmony.

Which means he needs to bring back that driven and ruthless streak he seems to have lost. Even last night his thinking appeared to be to wait for the transfer window to sort it out, that really cant be acceptable can it?
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In fairness that war and peace effort is all theory and your belief not fact.

And you tag this highlighted comment on the end like its nothing. Our most creative player, our most important player other than Kane who Kane would probably attribute alot of his success has checked out. Not that big at all.
 
Raziel said:
Again, have to disagree.

- Nobody came for Toby, simple as that, or more simply, nobody came that he was interested in going to.
- Jan is a Poch created problem, Jan has never wanted to leave, never wanted more money (so not sure where this "not treated fairly" view comes from. He has repeatedly said he will like to play for Spurs until his legs goes.

The player checked out on club theory is broken by Jan, the problem with Jan is Poch not the club, just go back to the bs about him not being picked because fo fitness and Jan's public responses

The big worry here is Toby, Jan, Rose, Eriksen don't believe in Poch's vision anymore or his ability to take us up another level, easy to write those guys off as greedy players who want a bigger slice, but none of them have that history.
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Haha says you but I know for a fact from my connection how the players have been angling their negotiations, you don't have to believe it that's utterly fine.
 
Grays_1890 said:
In fairness that war and peace effort is all theory and your belief not fact.

And you tag this highlighted comment on the end like its nothing. Our most creative player, a storm trooper mutiny pal other than Kane who Kane would probably attribute alot of his success has checked out. Not that big at all.
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What is any of this if not opinion? If we only deal in facts this boards traffic would slow to a crawl.

I actually took your words at face value. Could be utter BS, couldnt they? But I took them at face value and raised the view that its basically beside the point.

Illstrated by what you highlight, but seemingly fail to recognise as what I was getting at (possibly my fault).

Lamela showed against Leicester - we dont need Eriksen as much as people think. We can actually play without him. This really is the point. A manager should get the best out of what is available to him. Not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
So he could motivate the players for four years but not the last year?

Has he lost the skill to motivate or do some players no longer want to be here?

His strategy very much needs everyone to be on the same page. If not, it effects him as much it does the team. Maybe it shouldn't but that is the way he is.
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It's a limit of strategy/vision

- You take a group of 19-24 year old players, train them to extraordinary fitness levels, give them a pressing system and get lucky with one of them being a WC striker in the making and you get early Poch.

Here's the issue, a team with Lloris, Aurier, Jan, Toby, Rose, Winks, N'dombele/Sissoko, Lamela, Eriksen, Dele, Lucas, Son, Kane doesn't need to outrun all but maybe 5 clubs in the PL, and probably 10 clubs in Europe, perhaps senior player get that, know that properly setup, with limited tactics, right lineups, we should win a lot more games than 19 points in 17 games suggest.

Again, the manager is their manager, in any organization it as an excepted truth, people don't leave companies, they leave managers .. if the players want out (and it isn't 3 years ago where the salary cap was 90/100K), it's on Poch.
 
The players must know in themselves that the team and tactical selections of the last year are wrong regardless of any other factors, when thing go wrong fractures appear fingers get pointed, if the last year had happened and we were picking allowing for injuries the strongest available 11 in any formation that suits us, I would give him all the benefit of the doubt still, but everything comes back to Poch’s own decisions, what he is sending out is literally a act of self harm, we are playing with one arm tied behind our backs.

And I don’t actually buy this the players are no longer capable of the high intensity game, they are at an age where they should be in the peak physical condition of their lives never mind careers, we started playing with a lower intensity at Wembley two seasons ago almost as if he thought we couldn’t play it without the compact pitch of the old Lane, while ignoring the fact it worked home and away where just about every pitch was bigger.

And this talk of waiting till January to sort it out is sheer bs, three weeks ago it was wait until the European summer window shuts and everything will be ok, well what happens by the end of February is it going to be we will sort it all out in the summer window?
 
scaramanga said:
That still doesn't work. No matter where you set that limit, 0, 30, 5000 cm, there will always be a case where the player is one cm either side of that boundary and the same arguments persist.
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No it doesn't. If the accuracy is 30cm, and he's 31cm offside, he's definitely at least 1cm offside. Anything else, the equipment isn't accurate enough, and a judgement can't be made - everyone will just have to accept that. There will be no argument when a VAR screenshot shows someone 31cm offside.
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
So he could motivate the players for four years but not the last year?

Has he lost the skill to motivate or do some players no longer want to be here?

His strategy very much needs everyone to be on the same page. If not, it effects him as much it does the team. Maybe it shouldn't but that is the way he is.
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The players will mostly be on the same page as long as the results keep ticking in. They will believe in the manager and the plan as long as they see improvement, performances and results stemming from doing what the manager asks of them.

If some players are so unwilling to be here that they're incapable of getting on the same page, of being motivated, of following his instructions and playing well, why are they still in the team? I thought it was a meritocracy based on performances in training and games.

One alternative is that it's a question of tactics and player selection. Leaving out our best central defender over the last years at the start of the season, playing Sanchez at right back, persisting with the diamond formation.

A lot of us doubt that we'll see success with the diamond in midfield. Do the players believe they will succeed with it?
 
Raziel said:
Is this a serious post? hahaha I know more than you?
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Well my mates an agent and has given me some pretty decent intel on Spurs which has a few times been proven spot on.

What I don't do is go "well Poch said this and he played like that so it must mean A"

Loads of 2 + 2 = 20
 
Raziel said:
The big worry here is Toby, Jan, Rose, Eriksen don't believe in Poch's vision anymore or his ability to take us up another level, easy to write those guys off as greedy players who want a bigger slice, but none of them have that history.
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Thought you disagreed on so many levels?

If those 4 players don't believe anymore...that's obviously a problem, especially for the manager.

I don't think they're greedy (and not sure if anyone else does) and the club were not standing in their way if they wanted to depart.(after offering them contracts in line with what we could afford) Eriksens favoured clubs weren't interested and somehow no-one wanted Toby for £25m. So they remain. And their mindset remains.

Pochs philosophy if ALL about everyone buying in and pulling in the same direction. Fully focused. That's how we (and Poch) have pushed our level way beyond the targets even Levy set him. He did the same at Southampton, playing way above the sum of their parts.

If anything I think Poch might be a bit too emotional/sensitive for his own good. When he feels everyone is not on board, it hurts him 1. Because he believes success will be difficult and 2. Some players he maybe thought he could rely on (unlike Kaboul Are etc) have switched off. It doesn't make him happy, its ok but he needs them gone.

Maybe he needs to just suck it up, realise they are still good players, and find a way (ala Harry/modric) and get a tune out of them til the day they leave?
 
Or maybe he needs to be bold (as he has in the past) and sideline them, focusing on the players he has that really are on board?

I can accept he is an emotional sort, I think thats clear. I find it hard to accept he lets it effect his performance so badly though.
 
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