Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[Gutter Boy]

Interesting week for Labour.

Started with a failed attempt to get rid of the deputy leader, and now rolls into a big divide on Brexit - Unison throwing the cat among the pigeons.

Will Corbyn finally accept his parties wishes?

It's not though. It's the party members' wishes, but not their voters' wishes

At least 6/10 Labour voters are leavers. As are 415 of the 650 constituency seats.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

It's not though. It's the party members' wishes, but not their voters' wishes

At least 6/10 Labour voters are leavers. As are 415 of the 650 constituency seats.

Whats the point in a party, if you dont follow the members lead?

Voters arent, or at least shouldnt be, "labour" or "conservative" or any of it. They should vote for what they think is the best option, not from blind loyalty.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Whats the point in a party, if you dont follow the members lead?

Voters arent, or at least shouldnt be, "labour" or "conservative" or any of it. They should vote for what they think is the best option, not from blind loyalty.

Because all party members are lunatics (in all colour parties). Society's nutters. If any of them ever got their way, the whole country would be in serious trouble.

The parliamentary party's principal job is to restrain their members to keep the party in any way electable. Stop Tories going full racist, Labour going full Stalinist and Lib Dems full Keith from Nuts in May.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Then why even bother with members?

At the end of the day, the main body of the Labour party want to remain or at least get a referendum. Half the MPs too. And Corbyn has done everything he can to avoid it.

Thats just not on, in any party set up, IMO.

 

[StephenH]

Corbyn is just a barn pot!
He Just is unelectable.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Then why even bother with members?

At the end of the day, the main body of the Labour party want to remain or at least get a referendum. Half the MPs too. And Corbyn has done everything he can to avoid it.

Thats just not on, in any party set up, IMO.

Why - ££££££££££££££s and foot soldiers for election campaigns mainly

So should Labour leadership accept a policy that will leave them reduced to fighting the Lib Dems over just the 165 seats in London, Bristol and Brighton (while the Tories/Brexit pact cleans up the 415 leave seats and the 70 SNP and NI seats go their usual way)?

 

[Gutter Boy]

Then why even bother with members?

At the end of the day, the main body of the Labour party want to remain or at least get a referendum. Half the MPs too. And Corbyn has done everything he can to avoid it.

Thats just not on, in any party set up, IMO.

Tory members would be about 98% in favour of reintroducing the death penalty, fox hunting and a ban on gay marriage. But no Tory leader will ever let that get adopted as party policy.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Why - ££££££££££££££s and foot soldiers for election campaigns mainly

So should Labour leadership accept a policy that will leave them reduced to fighting the Lib Dems over just the 165 seats in London, Bristol and Brighton (while the Tories/Brexit pact cleans up the 415 leave seats and the 70 SNP and NI seats go their usual way)?

Not for me to say.

What I do think is that Labour should stand for something, and stand by it. If they are to have many thousands of members, those members should be heard and be able to help shape the party - else what is the point?

I also think, more generally speaking, if Labour DID say "We are for Remain", they would basically undercut Lib Dems entirely.

The Lib Dems are only profiting right now because of Labours intrasigence. Labour, on a sure footing, shouldnt fear the Lib Dems at all.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Tory members would be about 98% in favour of reintroducing the death penalty, fox hunting and a ban on gay marriage.

You know this how?

 

[Gutter Boy]

Not for me to say.

What I do think is that Labour should stand for something, and stand by it. If they are to have many thousands of members, those members should be heard and be able to help shape the party - else what is the point?

I also think, more generally speaking, if Labour DID say "We are for Remain", they would basically undercut Lib Dems entirely.

The Lib Dems are only profiting right now because of Labours intrasigence. Labour, on a sure footing, shouldnt fear the Lib Dems at all.

But if Labour move one way, they haemorrhage votes at the other. Going full remain could see them wiped out in the north and midlands, if the Tories utilise the Brexit party properly

 

[Gutter Boy]

You know this how?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...hreat-trump-johnson-hunt-yougov-a8992821.html

Or just hang around a county show for half-an-hour, anywhere in the shires

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

But if Labour move one way, they haemorrhage votes at the other. Going full remain could see them wiped out in the north and midlands, if the Tories utilise the Brexit party properly

So instead, they just scupper their members wishes, fail to land on any actual point of view and.... lose the election all the same.

Labour out performed themselves like crazy last time, and still lost to a completely inept Tory party lead by May.

They need an actual stance. A point. Something to campaign with. And putting an end to Brexit, putting it to bed, is as good as any - and conveniently what their membership wants. You know, those " foot soldiers for election campaigns" - wouldnt it be good if they believed in what they were selling?

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...hreat-trump-johnson-hunt-yougov-a8992821.html

Or just hang around a county show for half-an-hour, anywhere in the shires

Facebook posts and a youGov poll of 892. Yeah, I think Ill refrain from accepting all Tories are quite that mental.

Every group, of every kind, has its nutters. Usually in a fair minority (although often noisy).

I wouldnt mistake that for the general concensus.

And Labour members not wanting Brexit is entirely valid (even if I disagree). More so than thinking Trump would make a good PM FFS

 

[Gutter Boy]

So instead, they just scupper their members wishes, fail to land on any actual point of view and.... lose the election all the same.

Labour out performed themselves like crazy last time, and still lost to a completely inept Tory party lead by May.

They need an actual stance. A point. Something to campaign with. And putting an end to Brexit, putting it to bed, is as good as any - and conveniently what their membership wants. You know, those " foot soldiers for election campaigns" - wouldnt it be good if they believed in what they were selling?

Labour's strategy in 2017 was brilliant. They effectively neutralised Brexit by mirroring the Tory position, then focused things on their much more popular domestic manifesto.

I think the only chance they have of winning the next election is if Brexit happens next month and they win with a post-Brexit reforming domestic agenda. Like 1945 - let the Tories win the war, then step in a win the peace.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Labour's strategy in 2017 was brilliant. They effectively neutralised Brexit by mirroring the Tory position, then focused things on their much more popular domestic manifesto.

I think the only chance they have of winning the next election is if Brexit happens next month and they win with a post-Brexit reforming domestic agenda. Like 1945 - let the Tories win the war, then step in a win the peace.

So thats the plan? Block and stiffle any Brexit resolution long enough that it happens by default, then pick up the pieces? I dont think thats what they are doing, and I dont think they would succeed with it anyway. Specifically with Corbyns apparent desire to leave us neutered as the EUs bitch.

Their BRILLIANT strategy in 2017 didnt win them the election did it? If thats as good as theyve got then they dont have a chance.

Much better, IMO, to actually make a stand. People are desperate for it, to see politicians actually representing something, rather than permanently sitting in the grey area and never really standing for anything.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Facebook posts and a youGov poll of 892. Yeah, I think Ill refrain from accepting all Tories are quite that mental.

Every group, of every kind, has its nutters. Usually in a fair minority (although often noisy).

I wouldnt mistake that for the general concensus.

And Labour members not wanting Brexit is entirely valid (even if I disagree). More so than thinking Trump would make a good PM FFS

But party members are that fridge. The 0.25% of society who will pay money for the privilege of being able to do something a bit akin to 'death knocks'

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

But party members are that fridge. The 0.25% of society who will pay money for the privilege of being able to do something a bit akin to 'death knocks'

Then dont have them. Take donations, thats it.

Why bother giving the pretence they are part of it?

Either they are part of things or not.

 

[Gutter Boy]

So thats the plan? Block and stiffle any Brexit resolution long enough that it happens by default, then pick up the pieces? I dont think thats what they are doing, and I dont think they would succeed with it anyway. Specifically with Corbyns apparent desire to leave us neutered as the EUs bitch.

Their BRILLIANT strategy in 2017 didnt win them the election did it? If thats as good as theyve got then they dont have a chance.

Much better, IMO, to actually make a stand. People are desperate for it, to see politicians actually representing something, rather than permanently sitting in the grey area and never really standing for anything.

I think it is just playing to the metropolitan crowd. I do genuinely think Corbyn wants Johnson's Brexit to happen next month, as a step towards Long-Bailey overseeing an unshackled socialist government from 2022.

 

[Parklaner81]

I think it is just playing to the metropolitan crowd. I do genuinely think Corbyn wants Johnson's Brexit to happen next month, as a step towards Long-Bailey overseeing an unshackled socialist government from 2022.

He might genuinely want that deep down, but would he be able to resist opposing a Johnson deal for the sake of opposing...? I doubt that, somehow.

 

[Gutter Boy]

He might genuinely want that deep down, but would he be able to resist opposing a Johnson deal for the sake of opposing...? I doubt that, somehow.

He'll do what he's been doing for the past 3 years. Make a few public statements of opposition, then undermine them by privately making it known to the 30-40 or so Labour Brexiteers that they can support or abstain from Johnson's deal vote.