Politics, politics, politics

[Gutter Boy]

Some parts of that missile, the guidance system I think, is made in Scotland.
Made no less by a company receiving grants from the Holyrood government.

In the Gulf War the NATO troops were mostly ducking bullets manufactured in Sheffield, sold to Saddam Hussein in the 80s.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

His old man was complaining about not getting paid enough (dressed up as a dig at capitalism).

The market clearly didn't value him highly.

No he wasn't at all, he was saying that deluded capitalists, such as yourself, constantly link employment opportunities with the necessity of low rates of pay for the plebs. Its binary for your lot. Why can't we have decent pay and full employment, or is that only for the elite? Seriously, what good is the capitalist system for those at the bottom if, as Scara maintains, all they are good for are the crumbs from the elite's table? BTW, my Old Man would take great comfort from Scara's dig, he wouldn't expect anything else. He fought exploitative Tories all his life.

 

[ShipOfTheseus]

No he wasn't at all, he was saying that deluded capitalists, such as yourself, constantly link employment opportunities with the necessity of low rates of pay for the plebs. Its binary for your lot. Why can't we have decent pay and full employment, or is that only for the elite? Seriously, what good is the capitalist system for those at the bottom if, as Scara maintains, all they are good for are the crumbs from the elite's table? BTW, my Old Man would take great comfort from Scara's dig, he wouldn't expect anything else. He fought exploitative Tories all his life.

Online personas often descend into self-parody; they are a grotesque, cartoonish version of the nuanced individual behind the screen.

Perhaps the real-life Scara cackles and rubs his hands slightly when delayering operational headcount. Perhaps, very occasionally, he summons his children into a wood-panelled library and delivers homilies on self-reliance. But he's unlikely to be the full dingdongensian Montgomery Burns that he pretends to be on here. I doubt such a person could ever exist: they'd be too busy dancing on graves and cheating orphans to make much of a mark in business.

 

[Rorschach]

Online personas often descend into self-parody; they are a grotesque, cartoonish version of the nuanced individual behind the screen.

Perhaps the real-life Scara cackles and rubs his hands slightly when delayering operational headcount. Perhaps, very occasionally, he summons his children into a wood-panelled library and delivers homilies on self-reliance. But he's unlikely to be the full dingdongensian Montgomery Burns that he pretends to be on here. I doubt such a person could ever exist: they'd be too busy dancing on graves and cheating orphans to make much of a mark in business.

He's into cosplay too.

 

[scaramanga]

No he wasn't at all,

People earning lots of money don't often complain about how it's impossible to earn lots of money.

he was saying that deluded capitalists, such as yourself, constantly link employment opportunities with the necessity of low rates of pay for the plebs. Its binary for your lot.

Of course it's not - I've never claimed it is binary. Remuneration is a sliding scale based on worth in the job market. Rare skills are valued more highly than common ones, as are skills that generate shareholder wealth. It's very simple and the absolute opposite of binary.

Why can't we have decent pay and full employment, or is that only for the elite?

I assume when you use the term "full employment" you're talking about zero unemployment which is not quite the same thing. The reason we can't have that is that it's inflationary and means we will not be able to sell anything overseas, leaving us with no external market for all the really expensive stuff we've make. This reduces profits, which reduces investment, which reduces job creation. So now we have lots of people out of work, everything costs a huge amount of money, we can't sell anything because everything overseas is cheaper and we end up in a depression until the rest of the world slowly catches up with stable inflation.

Seriously, what good is the capitalist system for those at the bottom if, as Scara maintains, all they are good for are the crumbs from the elite's table?

There's no such thing as elite and not - that just belies your bias and tendencies towards the politics of jealousy. The capitalist system is one where everyone has a chance to achieve and everyone is able to differentiate themselves in the market. If I can go from a brickhole Comp in a brickhole town and get to where I've got to then so can anyone else.

BTW, my Old Man would take great comfort from Scara's dig, he wouldn't expect anything else. He fought exploitative Tories all his life.

I'm not a Tory, I'm a conservative (small c).

 

[scaramanga]

Online personas often descend into self-parody; they are a grotesque, cartoonish version of the nuanced individual behind the screen.

Perhaps the real-life Scara cackles and rubs his hands slightly when delayering operational headcount. Perhaps, very occasionally, he summons his children into a wood-panelled library and delivers homilies on self-reliance. But he's unlikely to be the full dingdongensian Montgomery Burns that he pretends to be on here. I doubt such a person could ever exist: they'd be too busy dancing on graves and cheating orphans to make much of a mark in business.

I don't delight in the misfortune of others, I just don't care.

It would be nice for everyone I care about to be so perfectly happy and content that I can start giving a brick about everyone else on the planet. I'm busy enough concerning myself with family and friends.

 

[Grays_1890]

There's no such thing as elite and not - that just belies your bias and tendencies towards the politics of jealousy. The capitalist system is one where everyone has a chance to achieve and everyone is able to differentiate themselves in the market.

Never a truer statement, those born into wealth has an easier time of it but the opportunities are there for anyone to replicate those that originally fought their way to the top.

Alan Sugar fought his way to wealth, his son will have an easier life as a result but you can make an Alan Sugar life for yourself if you want to.

If you look at any rags to riches stories in the world they all start with doing crap jobs for low pay further working up the scale till eventual wealth, I have trimmed that story for you all. Go to any job centre in the country and you will hear unemployed not willing to take such jobs that they feel are beneath them.

My mate works are recruitment consultant, once a month goes into Europe buying hand made gifts like ties, cufflinks, glass etc, he now shifts 700 units a month on ebay and amazon at a minimum retail of £9.99 a unit....its out there if you want it, he was not priveledged

 

[the dza]

Never a truer statement, those born into wealth has an easier time of it but the opportunities are there for anyone to replicate those that originally fought their way to the top.

Alan Sugar fought his way to wealth, his son will have an easier life as a result but you can make an Alan Sugar life for yourself if you want to.

If you look at any rags to riches stories in the world they all start with doing crap jobs for low pay further working up the scale till eventual wealth, I have trimmed that story for you all. Go to any job centre in the country and you will hear unemployed not willing to take such jobs that they feel are beneath them.

My mate works are recruitment consultant, once a month goes into Europe buying hand made gifts like ties, cufflinks, glass etc, he now shifts 700 units a month on ebay and amazon at a minimum retail of £9.99 a unit....its out there if you want it, he was not priveledged

Technically, anyone can be rich. But in reality, for rich people to exist as rich people, most have to be substantially poorer than them. If we accept that there are always going to be rich people and poorer people, then the question (imo) becomes how do we govern the country in the interests of the majority i.e. the people who are not rich. A cheesy way of putting that might be to govern for the many, not the few...

 

[Grays_1890]

Technically, anyone can be rich. But in reality, for rich people to exist as rich people, most have to be substantially poorer than them. If we accept that there are always going to be rich people and poorer people, then the question (imo) becomes how do we govern the country in the interests of the majority i.e. the people who are not rich. A cheesy way of putting that might be to govern for the many, not the few...

Thats why someone invented the % which is the perfect sliding scale for wealth. If you are poor 5% is less of a sting than 5% if you are rich but even if thats not enough the rich get larger taxation on earnings. I am not too sure what else can be done. Otherwise what you do is create a ceiling or ambition and say, you can aspire to do well and earn well but we won't let you............Then you have Cuba

 

[the dza]

Thats why someone invented the % which is the perfect sliding scale for wealth. If you are poor 5% is less of a sting than 5% if you are rich but even if thats not enough the rich get larger taxation on earnings. I am not too sure what else can be done. Otherwise what you do is create a ceiling or ambition and say, you can aspire to do well and earn well but we won't let you............Then you have Cuba

I have got to be honest, I don't understand this post.

 

[scaramanga]

I have got to be honest, I don't understand this post.

I believe he's suggesting that your post shows why we use a % of earnings (on the whole) to calculate a tax burden.

 

[Grays_1890]

I believe he's suggesting that your post shows why we use a % of earnings (on the whole) to calculate a tax burden.

Exactly

 

[the dza]

I believe he's suggesting that your post shows why we use a % of earnings (on the whole) to calculate a tax burden.

Well, that's true. So then it's a question of what those percentages are, at what numbers they change, and how that money is then spent.

You'd also have to consider at what level of wealth do the wealthy start earning most of their money in a way that isn't classed as income -- and if the current crop of politicians allow loopholes for tax to be avoided in this way, whilst ensuring that those who earn their money in a way that is classed as income always have to pay, no matter what.

And then how much wealth is generated by Britain having a developed economy and society is pugged away offshore so as to avoid paying taxes necessary to maintain that developed society, and again, if the current crop of politicians allow the necessary loopholes to exist for this to be the case.

If politicians allow it, then why? Who benefits, the majority or the very wealthy? And why would politicians govern in the interests of that minority? I'm sure it's all perfectly innocent.

 

[scaramanga]

Well, that's true. So then it's a question of what those percentages are, at what numbers they change, and how that money is then spent.

You'd also have to consider at what level of wealth do the wealthy start earning most of their money in a way that isn't classed as income -- and if the current crop of politicians allow loopholes for tax to be avoided in this way, whilst ensuring that those who earn their money in a way that is classed as income always have to pay, no matter what.

And then how much wealth is generated by Britain having a developed economy and society is pugged away offshore so as to avoid paying taxes necessary to maintain that developed society, and again, if the current crop of politicians allow the necessary loopholes to exist for this to be the case.

If politicians allow it, then why? Who benefits, the majority or the very wealthy? And why would politicians govern in the interests of that minority? I'm sure it's all perfectly innocent.

The trick is finding a fair level of taxation to remove the incentives to move wealth around and avoid losing it to the government. Clearly the current level is far too high. I spend the vast majority of every morning working to earn money for HMRC before I begin to earn anything for myself, and I'm a very long way from being a rich person.

Keeping taxation low not only encourages those earning here to declare those profits here, it also encourages those earning them overseas to find a way to be earning them here too.

 

[Grays_1890]

What about those that are rich by not exploiting loop holes and pay their tax to the levels that are set? Are you going to penalise someone that gone from selling 20 units of product to 2m units because he has become a success?

 

[glorygloryeze]

As usual this thread continues to be possibly the most interesting on the whole site.
Great stuff all.

Anyway, erm, carry on...

 

[glorygloryeze]

The trick is finding a fair level of taxation to remove the incentives to move wealth around and avoid losing it to the government. Clearly the current level is far too high. I spend the vast majority of every morning working to earn money for HMRC before I begin to earn anything for myself, and I'm a very long way from being a rich person.

Keeping taxation low not only encourages those earning here to declare those profits here, it also encourages those earning them overseas to find a way to be earning them here too.

Out of interest, what taxation level do you think that would be for the UK? Also, which countries in your opinion have the optimum level for their given population and economy?

 

[Grays_1890]

I think ours is pretty good, we are just crap at how we spend....

 

[the dza]

What about those that are rich by not exploiting loop holes and pay their tax to the levels that are set? Are you going to penalise someone that gone from selling 20 units of product to 2m units because he has become a success?

What do you mean by penalise?

 

[the dza]

The trick is finding a fair level of taxation to remove the incentives to move wealth around and avoid losing it to the government. Clearly the current level is far too high. I spend the vast majority of every morning working to earn money for HMRC before I begin to earn anything for myself, and I'm a very long way from being a rich person.

Keeping taxation low not only encourages those earning here to declare those profits here, it also encourages those earning them overseas to find a way to be earning them here too.

With political will, wouldn't it be possible to greatly reduce the ability to move wealth around offshore so as to avoid tax? Those in power for the last 40 odd years have had no real desire to try and do this, imo. Probably because most of them are bought and paid for (see the jobs Blair and son manage to land after finishing in politics as an example).