• Dear Guest, Please note that adult content is not permitted on this forum. We have had our Google ads disabled at times due to some posts that were found from some time ago. Please do not post adult content and if you see any already on the forum, please report the post so that we can deal with it. Adult content is allowed in the glory hole - you will have to request permission to access it. Thanks, scara

"Champions of 3rd place, we know what we are"

Libero said:
I definitely agree with you on the context, Our change from where we were means our goals and aims are slightly different but I don't personally want it to be that getting 4th is over and above a trophy, not that it should be one or the other, it should be both ideally. But my feeling on the context is that we haven't always been poor. We were decent and an established top 5 side that would win a few cups throughout a decade and finish in the top 5/6 75% of the time during that decade with the odd blip, then of course we have the 15 years or so of complete dross which we have turned round so we are really returning to type and that should be a side that manages to win trophies at times whilst finishing highly in the league most seasons and therefore my expectations ae not just to constantly qualify for the CL just because it brings money in, I want to have a go and for that the chairman can do more imo and we have the resources to do more. One £30m signing in the summer and some gap fillers won't cut it but some people will still say that that is adequate backing and the chairman has done so much, what more do you want etc.

I can only hope that we really have a go in the transfer market, I think we need it. The depth isn't there and the quality waiting to come in certainly isn't. The team do look tired and with a world cup also involved this summer our key players are only going to come back even more tired. If the chairman allows Pochettino to spend a significant sum after sales of say, £75m - £80m then I most certainly wouldn't have any complaints because I would consider that adequate backing. If it is pretty much a zero net spend then I would feel it is unlikely that we have recruited enough going forward. Time will tell I guess going forward throughout the summer.
Click to expand...
You have to understand it's a process. We must walk before we run. Top 4 is not the goal. But to get to the goal of winning a title, or *gasp* the CL, we need to consolidate ourselves in the top 4. Top 4 will bring CL, which raises the profile of the club, which brings in more money, which allows us to attract and afford better players and be able to pay more competitive salaries, which then allows us to challenge for the title, or *gasp* the CL.

If you think after 3 years we're there, you're badly mistaken. Yes we will bring in better quality players this year, but will it be enough? Maybe, maybe not. But if we get top 4 next year and the year after, we will bring in even better quality players until at some point it is enough. And, in the meantime, we just may manage to win something major with some luck and the excellent coaching of Poch.

You hearken back to years where CL and commercial revenue did not make for such a large disparity as they do now. Back then a team like us could finish in a decent league position while winning a pot. But times have changed, which is why we should be celebrating every time we get a top-4 trophy, because that is what will allow us to eventually achieve the titles we so yearn for.
 
spitshine said:
What’s baffling about this is if Madrid lose the final they go into pot2,irrespective of them getting to three finals and winning two of them.
Click to expand...
It is, but Pot 1 is the only pot that is not determined by coefficients, since it's the CL winner and league winners. Once you get to Pot 2 is when the coefficients come into play.
 
Libero said:
I definitely agree with you on the context, Our change from where we were means our goals and aims are slightly different but I don't personally want it to be that getting 4th is over and above a trophy, not that it should be one or the other, it should be both ideally. But my feeling on the context is that we haven't always been poor. We were decent and an established top 5 side that would win a few cups throughout a decade and finish in the top 5/6 75% of the time during that decade with the odd blip, then of course we have the 15 years or so of complete dross which we have turned round so we are really returning to type and that should be a side that manages to win trophies at times whilst finishing highly in the league most seasons and therefore my expectations ae not just to constantly qualify for the CL just because it brings money in, I want to have a go and for that the chairman can do more imo and we have the resources to do more. One £30m signing in the summer and some gap fillers won't cut it but some people will still say that that is adequate backing and the chairman has done so much, what more do you want etc.

I can only hope that we really have a go in the transfer market, I think we need it. The depth isn't there and the quality waiting to come in certainly isn't. The team do look tired and with a world cup also involved this summer our key players are only going to come back even more tired. If the chairman allows Pochettino to spend a significant sum after sales of say, £75m - £80m then I most certainly wouldn't have any complaints because I would consider that adequate backing. If it is pretty much a zero net spend then I would feel it is unlikely that we have recruited enough going forward. Time will tell I guess going forward throughout the summer.
Click to expand...

I don’t think we need to set arbitrary spending targets. We have benefitted as much from keeping a close knit squad together, in a rhythm, fighting for each other, knowing each other’s movements, as much as other teams have benefited from spending money. I’m pretty confident that if Poch sees there is a massive gap of quality that needs to be filled, we will figure a way to attempt to fill it. But Poch is as much bought into the strategy that we have as anyone.

Regardless, I think we probably will win a trophy over the next couple of years. The stadium will allow us to pay higher wages and probably allow us to bear higher quality squad players because we will have a bigger wage budget to keep them satisfied. That will probably lead to some consistency across competitions. The key will be balancing the improved wages and squad players with our spirit and cohesion, and it won’t necessarily be easy. FWIW, I think our squad is shaping up quite nicely. To have players like Lucas, Lamela, Sissoko, Winks, Aurier, Rose, Toby, Wanyama, Vorm as bench options is actually pretty decent. We’ll probably have to replace Rose and Toby, and we probably will.

As I said yesterday, I see no reason why we are any less likely than other clubs to win a trophy over the coming years.
 
Gazza Dazzla said:
As far as I could see your argument against it was “he’s the manager, so knows better, so can’t be wrong”?

That was during international break though and things were getting a bit strange on here so I stayed away after I saw that and a few other similarly strange posts. If it developed beyond “the manager always knows best” then apologies.
Click to expand...

My argument in retort to 'Poch needs to be better at subs' centered on 2 or 3 things:

Firstly, he regularly makes changes to our shape in-game that lead to goals, without needing to use subs. The Saudi Sportswashing Machine game is a prime example of it. He got Dele and Son closer to Kane in more of a 4-3-3 as opposed to 4-2-3-1 and it meant we got into space we just weren't able to get into in the first half. We scored from that move and it won us the game. But he does this regularly over the season, and I'd argue one of the reasons the players say he's a top manager is because they know he has won them points by making tactical changes, it working, and us then taking back control. In fact I think there is even a quote out there from Kane on this precise point.

Secondly, the idea that subs in our context are guaranteed to lead to improvements is just without basis, and ignores that Poch is probably doing what he does because it is part of his strategy. As if he has some sort of blind spot and he hasn't figured out that subs can be beneficial...it's as much the tone of that point - which I find ridiculous - as it is the content of the argument itself. I would suggest that based on a couple of things - that we probably have the fittest players in the League, and that our players have shown they need to play themselves into form under Poch and rarely come in from a cold run immediately firing on all cylinders - to suggest that there is something in the idea that the players that are on the pitch from the start, in a rhythm, knowing the patterns that we have worked on to exploit the opposition's weaknesses etc are more likely to have an impact on the game than a player coming in and trying to find their space. Given that we have the fittest players, the point at which we can exploit that advantage is when our players are in their rhythm and the opposition's are tiring.

But yes, as I said, he makes a lot of changes during either first or second halves that win us games and get us goals. Without subs. He also does make subs, and I don't think we have a particular problem with scoring late goals or coming from behind under him. We seem to be able to turn around performances pretty well. So if we weren't able to do that, maybe I'd agree we need to make subs earlier. But we're ok.

I kind of get it. I was calling for Lucas on at half time of the Saudi Sportswashing Machine game. But Poch didn't make a sub, adjusted our shape and we scored, and won the game. With a much better second half performance than in the first. So I just take exception to the fact that he has a blind spot around subs, or that subs only lead to positives, and that we are suffering because he doesn't do them. I think he is very strategic, and I think everything he does is linked, and is done with good reason (e.g. he picks a style of play, and our fitness is conditioned to do it, the players that are signed are suited to play it, the wages offered are what we can afford to get those players, etc etc, it's all linked and based on good strategy). So I'm confident there is good reason - some of which I have begun to explore above but there may be inaccuracies or things that can be added to it - as to why he doesn't do subs the way some would like him to.
 
Ade's folks are ok really said:
Totally agree with this post. And i think your far more likely to find others who also agree now that the dust has settled on the achievement and we can calmly have some perspective on the season, rather than the sheer panic that was the Glory-Glory forum on Wednesday morning. ;)

However, I would add (and slightly to the contrary i know), that the reason the past 3-4 games have been so highly focused on is because we are at that "business end" of the season when titles / relegations / European qualification / playoffs / Cup finals etc are decided. And like it or loathe it, this is when the pressure is on and the media ramp up their attentions.
So having an equivalent blip mid-season doesn't matter so much, as you have chances to recover those points. Lose games now and you're likely to get fudged over! It's when players must show their mettle and, dare i say it, their bottle!

However, we made it. We're all relieved. But at a time when we needed to show our bottle and spirit as a club, we really haven't performed too well. Even the wins over Watford and Saudi Sportswashing Machine could've easily gone against us on another day. So i do totally understand why people think we "limped over the line".

It's an interesting debate. Taking a step back and looking at what we've achieved this season, against those with far more spending power than us, we've done so well. But we've been well below par lately at a time when we usually run-in quite strongly.
Click to expand...

It is quite interesting. The table below lists teams in order of the number of points, more or fewer, that they would have on the board right now, had they maintained their current 6-game form over the whole season. We focus on our own drop-off in performance, but of the top 6, only Chelsea have been finishing relatively strongly. My pet theory is it's the WC effect, with top 6 sides presumably likely to be disproportionately affected, although that invites the obvious question of why they should buck the trend, and I'll be buggered if I know. Sheer desperation?

Code: 
Current vs Season-long Form Δpt
---------------------------------
01 West Brom      +38
02 Crystal Palace +28
03 Chelsea        +17
04 Southampton    +14
05 Everton         +7
06 Huddersfield     0
07 West Ham        -2
08 Brighton        -3
09 Burnley         -4
10 Saudi Sportswashing Machine       -4
11 Arsenal         -5
12 Bournemouth    -10
13 Watford        -10
14 Stoke          -12
15 Tottenham      -13
16 Liverpool      -17
17 Man United     -17
18 Emirates Marketing Project       -18
19 Swansea        -21
20 Leicester      -23

Edit: good omen for Sunday as well, incidentally (at the risk of tempting fate).
 
Last edited:
mudshark said:
It is quite interesting. The table below lists teams in order of the number of points, more or fewer, that they would have on the board right now, had they maintained their current 6-game form over the whole season. We focus on our own drop-off in performance, but of the top 6, only Chelsea have been finishing relatively strongly. My pet theory is it's the WC effect, with top 6 sides presumably likely to be disproportionately affected, although that invites the obvious question of why they should buck the trend, and I'll be buggered if I know. Sheer desperation?

Code: 
Current vs Season-long Form Δpt
---------------------------------
01 West Brom      +38
02 Crystal Palace +28
03 Chelsea        +17
04 Southampton    +14
05 Everton         +7
06 Huddersfield     0
07 West Ham        -2
08 Brighton        -3
09 Burnley         -4
10 Saudi Sportswashing Machine       -4
11 Arsenal         -5
12 Bournemouth    -10
13 Watford        -10
14 Stoke          -12
15 Tottenham      -13
16 Liverpool      -17
17 Man United     -17
18 Emirates Marketing Project       -18
19 Swansea        -21
20 Leicester      -23

Edit: good omen for Sunday as well, incidentally (at the risk of tempting fate).
Click to expand...

Have seen this theory knocking around and there may well be something to it. Poch even alluded to the fact that the Saudi Sportswashing Machine 5-1 was because players had their minds on the Euros.

I find it pretty amazing that it can have such an effect, but it may well do. You’d think players would see the benefit in getting their club to finish as high as possible. Certainly in our case the risk of not finishing in the CL spots could have really hampered our players’ bonusses. Maybe they really are all in it for themselves, and view the WC as the biggest shop window they will ever have.
 
alekaras said:
You have to understand it's a process. We must walk before we run. Top 4 is not the goal. But to get to the goal of winning a title, or *gasp* the CL, we need to consolidate ourselves in the top 4. Top 4 will bring CL, which raises the profile of the club, which brings in more money, which allows us to attract and afford better players and be able to pay more competitive salaries, which then allows us to challenge for the title, or *gasp* the CL.

If you think after 3 years we're there, you're badly mistaken. Yes we will bring in better quality players this year, but will it be enough? Maybe, maybe not. But if we get top 4 next year and the year after, we will bring in even better quality players until at some point it is enough. And, in the meantime, we just may manage to win something major with some luck and the excellent coaching of Poch.

You hearken back to years where CL and commercial revenue did not make for such a large disparity as they do now. Back then a team like us could finish in a decent league position while winning a pot. But times have changed, which is why we should be celebrating every time we get a top-4 trophy, because that is what will allow us to eventually achieve the titles we so yearn for.
Click to expand...
Poch says the players don’t celebrate coming top 4, so why should we? It’s a good sign, the players want more than this...
 
harr1984 said:
Poch says the players don’t celebrate coming top 4, so why should we? It’s a good sign, the players want more than this...
Click to expand...
I'm not saying we should celebrate, I'm just saying it's a necessary step in process. Just as in a longterm project you don't celebrate the completion of every activity, but the completion of the project, you wouldn't necessarily celebrate top 4. But it's still getting you closer to the target.
 
jaysea67 said:
Maybe it's just me, but I can't see the attachment that should have been with the above post.

View attachment 4471
Click to expand...

Spurs almost caught a big break today. Hoffenheim beat Dortmund 3-1 to equal them at 55 points but one better on GD. Bayer Leverkusen were up 3-0 after 60 mins at home against Hannover to also hit 55 pts. and two more goals would have knocked Dortmund out. Alas, Hannover scored twice in stoppage time.
 
greatwhitenorf said:
Spurs almost caught a big break today. Hoffenheim beat Dortmund 3-1 to equal them at 55 points but one better on GD. Bayer Leverkusen were up 3-0 after 60 mins at home against Hannover to also hit 55 pts. and two more goals would have knocked Dortmund out. Alas, Hannover scored twice in stoppage time.
Click to expand...
No worries, Real will beat Lollerpool. And even if we end up in pot 3, does it really matter? I'd love another group like we had this year. The better the teams we play in the group stage the more experience we gain playing top sides, which would bode well in the knockout stage.
 
And assuming Sporting win this afternoon, Benfica won't be in the CL and Sporting would be in pot 3 (I think), making our place in pot 2 even more certain. If those tables are in ranking order, that might also shift Roma into pot 2 as well - they look like the team in pot 3 which everyone would want to avoid
 
Being grouped with Porto, Ludogorets and Plzen would be quite nice!!

After having the big names this year, would prefer a weak group next year and better chance of getting through to the knock-out stages
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back