Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[SpurMeUp]

As I understand it, so long as there is a cursory attempt to find work, we cant do any of that. So its not really a solution. Instead, in the case he applies to McDonalds, we are obliged to house and feed him and offer him all our hospitality.

And its also a case of trying to lock the door once the horse has bolted. Mr EU has come over anyway, before we were even able to decide whether or not to welcome him. And then, to "correct" that issue (unfortunate phrasing) in the event he just became homeless and jobless, we need to go through deportation procedures as well. Which of course he would fight. And probably win.

The whole situation is one of time and money, that could easily have been prevented in the first place if we had permission to control our own borders.

The trade off, of actually having that control, vs the freedom to just welcome ourselves into EU countries, is more than worth it. Going through a visa application is a perfectly valid thing.

If your arguement is one of time and money - you have lost. The reason we don't do more to send out of work migrants home to the EU is becuase it is a waste of time and money. As a nation we benifit from low bureaucracy involved in processing EU migrants, and their labour boosts our economy and tax revenue. These are people who don't need to fly to come and work here and can go home easily - unlike rest of the world migration. A time and money arugment doesn't stack up.

 

[Parklaner81]

This obsession with a "fairer" immigration system is misguided. We have a system now that is fair for the rest of the world, that is how my parents and most of my family came here. Look around you, if you live in London there are plenty of people from the rest of the world, Sri Lankans, Brazilians, Afghani, Fillipino Korean, to name a few. The advantage of the EU system is that it allowed our citizens to go and find work in other member states more easily. We have thrown that away. We do not have those rights with the rest of the world and it gave us real flexibility in the job market.

I stress again that immigration was a huge issue during the referendum. People were not voting for a replacement of EU citizens with those from the rest of the world.

Absolutely spot on. My take, in very general terms, is that immigration levels basically swung brexit. No large-scale public concern over the level of immigration, no brexit. It's as simple as that to my mind.

To now try and paint 'fairness' of the immigration system as a/the major concern is deeply worrying to me, because it allows people to continue to ignore the key issue - public concern over levels, not fairness. And ignoring the issue is what caused it to grow to the proportions it did in the first place - proportions that facilitated something as dramatic as brexit. I'm not saying that there isn't potentially an argument to made around fairness, but in the eyes of the voting public that issue is/was peripheral at best, in my opinion.

It would be an absolute calamity for me if brexit were to happen without the key issue/s that drove it being squarely addressed.

 

[Robspur12]

As I understand it, so long as there is a cursory attempt to find work, we cant do any of that. So its not really a solution. Instead, in the case he applies to McDonalds, we are obliged to house and feed him and offer him all our hospitality.

And its also a case of trying to lock the door once the horse has bolted. Mr EU has come over anyway, before we were even able to decide whether or not to welcome him. And then, to "correct" that issue (unfortunate phrasing) in the event he just became homeless and jobless, we need to go through deportation procedures as well. Which of course he would fight. And probably win.

The whole situation is one of time and money, that could easily have been prevented in the first place if we had permission to control our own borders.

The trade off, of actually having that control, vs the freedom to just welcome ourselves into EU countries, is more than worth it. Going through a visa application is a perfectly valid thing.

As I mentioned earlier mate, all we will do is make the system "hell" for everyone not just Indian Docs, that is bad for employment in the UK. This is part of the reason I believe our economy will contract.

Look as far as I could see brexiteers were scared about numbers coming in not where they were coming from. In fact, the British people have more in common with a Pole than a Somali. The "control of our borders" is a legitimate concern and difficult to argue against. Perhaps a little compromise by the EU on this would have helped.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

As I mentioned earlier mate, all we will do is make the system "hell" for everyone not just Indian Docs, that is bad for employment in the UK. This is part of the reason I believe our economy will contract.

Look as far as I could see brexiteers were scared about numbers coming in not where they were coming from. In fact, the British people have more in common with a Pole than a Somali. The "control of our borders" is a legitimate concern and difficult to argue against. Perhaps a little compromise by the EU on this would have helped.

And if we make a unified system that applies to all, we can stop it being "hell" and we can also control the numbers.

The only way we have to control numbers presently is to nix all rest of world immigration to balance against EU immigration.

Problem being, we have no power over the make up of that EU immigration. They could all be minimum wage workers and thats it.

If everyone applies under the same system, one which we have the ability to say yes/no to everyone, then all your issues disappear.

If we want to reduce numbers, we can.

If we want to increase them, we can.

If we want more nurses, we attract them.

If we really need fruit pickers, then guess what?

That simple, basic, yes/no principle applying to ALL is the key to every issue around immigration.

I do appreciate the number of immigrants was a base issue for many, and I can understand why. This would fix that.

I can only speak for myself though, and a huge issue for me was the prejudicial nature of the preference to Europeans. That and actually having control of our own borders. Which isnt to say I dont want EU immigration, only that I hate the nature of it vs the rest of the world and vs our sovereignty.

 

[Grays_1890]

The Aussie points system - that we are supposedly going to emulate - discriminates on what is desirable for the nation

But surely that is what you want as a nation? You want to take the cream of the crop?

A country can look and say where are our gaps in work forces, where are we less skilled and lets turn that tap on and turn off the tap on workers we don't need who will just dilute a talent pool we may have?

Like I have said on many occasions I 100% value the immigration culture here, you look in many part of London and you see where that culture has also immersed itself and we are a better place for it, BUT there does need to be more control on certain aspects of immigration, the figures were getting out of hand and I know first hand from my mum running 3 Dr Surgeries how that looked on the NHS as one small part of that.

 

[SpurMeUp]

But surely that is what you want as a nation? You want to take the cream of the crop?

A country can look and say where are our gaps in work forces, where are we less skilled and lets turn that tap on and turn off the tap on workers we don't need who will just dilute a talent pool we may have?

Like I have said on many occasions I 400% value the immigration culture here, you look in many part of London and you see where that culture has also immersed itself and we are a better place for it, BUT there does need to be more control on certain aspects of immigration, the figures were getting out of hand and I know first hand from my mum running 3 Dr Surgeries how that looked on the NHS as one small part of that.

Were the figures for EU migration or RoW migration? RoW is not linked to leaving the EU at all. We control all of it now. EU migration is now about 70k a year, RoW 200k.

So you agree that the immigration system is discrimintory and not about fairness to migrants? I agree with you, a nation will always put its existing people first. That doesn't mean it shouldn't also have compassion. And we have a refugee and asylum seeking process which looks out for people who have escaped some kind of significant hardship.

We have almost 3 times as many migrants coming to the UK from the rest of the world as the EU. Our parliment controls that immigration now. It has zero to do with the EU, apart from they will take in these people that we take in. Opinion polls tell us people who are not wholly comfortable with migration prefer christian white migrants - basically the EU variety.

Do you believe Brexit will "fix" UK immigration?

 

[Grays_1890]

So you agree that the immigration system is discrimintory and not about fairness to migrants? I agree with you, a nation will always put its existing people first. That doesn't mean it shouldn't also have compassion. We have an refugee and asylum seeking process which allows people who have escaped some kind of significant hardship.

You call it discriminatory I would not use that word personally.

I am confused slightly though on what else there is? You say we should have compassion which means that we are turning down who? Because like you go on to say we have an Asylum process for those escaping hardship, so what compassion are you referring to? People wanting to come to the UK with no defined skill set? Thats not a dig by the way I am trying to understand who you think we will be turning away that we shouldn't?

TBH I think like the US the UK is under some of the most intense media spot light and is also judged on higher standards than is expected of other countries, which is fine, its a good place to be, however I do think the whole idea that we are some how now being compassionate or less multicultural isn't exactly true. Without any bias I think we are up there as one of the most multicultural and compassionate countries in the world. Abit like when there is a terror attack, not all muslims are terrorists, one Tommy Robinson does not make all English bigots.

We have probably paid the price for our compassion and is the whole reason we have had to restrict entry, but thats always a hard one to explain and accept "Whats that you are not allowing anyone else in, where is your compassion" whilst ignoring the last 20 years or so of over compassion. But needs must.

Its also interesting that places like Canada who are seen as overly compassionate but its all very well played PR spin. They take an ultra select number of refuges like the 163 to Toronto and Trudeau goes to the airport to meet them which adds huge PR value and everyone goes wow look at them, look at the compassion. We resettled 11,000 and in a country less than the size of British Columbia with double to population of the whole of Canada, just to give it some scope.

I know that might look like I have gone off piste but I feel it is all of relevance when you talk about what we do, what we are going to do and what we have done.

And then to finish you have the wonderful countries under the EU who pushed refuges along so much they were trying to get to the UK from France by any means possible and you think to yourself, we get a HUGELY unfair rep.

Was only so long we could carry the burden of the British Empire for.

 

[SpurMeUp]

You call it discriminatory I would not use that word personally.

I am confused slightly though on what else there is? You say we should have compassion which means that we are turning down who? Because like you go on to say we have an Asylum process for those escaping hardship, so what compassion are you referring to? People wanting to come to the UK with no defined skill set? Thats not a dig by the way I am trying to understand who you think we will be turning away that we shouldn't?

TBH I think like the US the UK is under some of the most intense media spot light and is also judged on higher standards than is expected of other countries, which is fine, its a good place to be, however I do think the whole idea that we are some how now being compassionate or less multicultural isn't exactly true. Without any bias I think we are up there as one of the most multicultural and compassionate countries in the world. Abit like when there is a terror attack, not all muslims are terrorists, one Tommy Robinson does not make all English bigots.

We have probably paid the price for our compassion and is the whole reason we have had to restrict entry, but thats always a hard one to explain and accept "Whats that you are not allowing anyone else in, where is your compassion" whilst ignoring the last 20 years or so of over compassion. But needs must.

Its also interesting that places like Canada who are seen as overly compassionate but its all very well played PR spin. They take an ultra select number of refuges like the 163 to Toronto and Trudeau goes to the airport to meet them which adds huge PR value and everyone goes wow look at them, look at the compassion. We resettled 11,000 and in a country less than the size of British Columbia with double to population of the whole of Canada, just to give it some scope.

I know that might look like I have gone off piste but I feel it is all of relevance when you talk about what we do, what we are going to do and what we have done.

And then to finish you have the wonderful countries under the EU who pushed refuges along so much they were trying to get to the UK from France by any means possible and you think to yourself, we get a HUGELY unfair rep.

Was only so long we could carry the burden of the British Empire for.

You got it a little back to front. I was saying that our future immigration policy was not about compassion. It was not about fairness to migrants but fairness to the UK. As you point out Canada is a vast country with a need for people. The UK has a population the same as France with half the space. If there was a key variable to Brexit it was immigration. The strongest argument for Brexit was made to me by my old dear who basically just said we don't have the room.

The question is, will Brexit fix anything. We know we will lose quite a bit (free trade for us, freedom to move anywhere in Europe etc etc) but what will we gain? I am concerned that all the UK gets are the loses from leaving, and none of the advertised benifits.

We control the 200k RoW migrants now vs 70k from th EU. If there are no benifits to immigration from leaving, why are we?

 

[scaramanga]

So does anyone else think that Merkel and the little Pound Shop Napoleon are playing some kind of good cop, bad cop routine? Or does the angry little man really think he can tell Merkel what to do?

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

So does anyone else think that Merkel and the little Pound Shop Napoleon are playing some kind of good cop, bad cop routine? Or does the angry little man really think he can tell Merkel what to do?

I think they are banking on Corbyn bailing them out, and are stalling to wait and see what happens.

If Corbyn can cancel hard Brexit then they win. If Boris actually ends up with the ability to take us out - then they need to talk.

 

[scaramanga]

I think they are banking on Corbyn bailing them out, and are stalling to wait and see what happens.

If Corbyn can cancel hard Brexit then they win. If Boris actually ends up with the ability to take us out - then they need to talk.

I think Merkel let that slip in her comments about 30 days.

We'll know at the end of September if parliament is able to circumvent democracy or if Johnson will be negotiating with the threat of no deal. So Merkel is basing her 30 days on getting a deal done from that point, if required (IMO).

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I think Merkel let that slip in her comments about 30 days.

We'll know at the end of September if parliament is able to circumvent democracy or if Johnson will be negotiating with the threat of no deal. So Merkel is basing her 30 days on getting a deal done from that point, if required (IMO).

Have to be honest, Ive not read up on any comments etc the last few days so am not sure what she said in which context etc.

However, given the efforts being made domestically to sabotage the government, it only makes sense if you are the EU to wait and see if everything you want just falls into your lap. Why would they take Boris seriously at all until they know for sure they have to?

 

[Parklaner81]

However, given the efforts being made domestically to sabotage the government, it only makes sense if you are the EU to wait and see if everything you want just falls into your lap. Why would they take Boris seriously at all until they know for sure they have to?

Indeed, as has been the case all along. May gets pilloried over her handling of the whole thing (and mostly deservedly so), but is it really any wonder we've ended up in such a weak position when you think about it...?

 

[Grays_1890]

Corbyn won't do nothing. People will be left with a choice, Brexit or Corbyn, that stacks the deck even further in favour of Brexit.

 

[scaramanga]

Corbyn won't do nothing. People will be left with a choice, Brexit or Corbyn, that stacks the deck even further in favour of Brexit.

If the Labour party sees that in time and offers up a centrist alternative (I'm really fudging sure I've seen some smart arse telling us this was going to happen months ago), then it's a much closer choice.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I dont think Labour have time for that, doesnt look to me like Corbyn is going anywhere soon - and he certainly wouldnt allow them to shift centrally.

He see's and opportunity to get the job, and very much like Boris will fudge all and anything else off to get it.

He'll need to be ousted, he wont go himself, and I dont see (but stand to be corrected) that happening any time soon. More likely, IMO, they would need to lose a GE first before giving him the elbow.

 

[Parklaner81]

I dont think Labour have time for that, doesnt look to me like Corbyn is going anywhere soon - and he certainly wouldnt allow them to shift centrally.

He see's and opportunity to get the job, and very much like Boris will fudge all and anything else off to get it.

He'll need to be ousted, he wont go himself, and I dont see (but stand to be corrected) that happening any time soon. More likely, IMO, they would need to lose a GE first before giving him the elbow.

I'm not quite so sure - I've never been able to make my mind up about Corbyn in that way.

He strikes me very much as the sort of person who loves to criticise and oppose, and very often will do so for the sheer sake of it without actually being able to offer a viable alternative himself - you only need look at his performance when it comes to brexit to see where I might get that idea from.

So the question I'm left with is, does a person like that really want power, or are they happy enough just making life as difficult as possible for the 'enemy', and playing the martyr...?

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I'm not quite so sure - I've never been able to make my mind up about Corbyn in that way.

He strikes me very much as the sort of person who loves to criticise and oppose, and very often will do so for the sheer sake of it without actually being able to offer a viable alternative himself - you only need look at his performance when it comes to brexit to see where I might get that idea from.

So the question I'm left with is, does a person like that really want power, or are they happy enough just making life as difficult as possible for the 'enemy', and playing the martyr...?

I can see where you are at there, but cant shake the feeling he and Boris are basically peas in a pod.

His Brexit performance was all about how he didnt give a fudge about Labours position, because he put his own feelings ahead of the party.

IMO his attitude to being PM is exactly the same.

 

[Grays_1890]

He strikes me very much as the sort of person who loves to criticise and oppose, and very often will do so for the sheer sake of it without actually being able to offer a viable alternative himself - you only need look at his performance when it comes to brexit to see where I might get that idea from.

See I see him totally differently, I think he is pushing any way he can for power, for me he wants power and he wants it in a way that too me smell dangerous. I know its the job of the opposition to want that but its the way in which he does it.

 

[SpurMeUp]

See I see him totally differently, I think he is pushing any way he can for power, for me he wants power and he wants it in a way that too me smell dangerous. I know its the job of the opposition to want that but its the way in which he does it.

Corbyn and Johnson are similar in that regard. They both just want their name down in history as the PM. That they don’t really have an idea what they are doing is secondary.


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