Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[Rorschach]

It's not really a concession if it's a worse option for us than not having it at all.

Call it what you like but it was a concession made by the EU at the request of the UK government, and making it UK wide was a further concession.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Which is what we have now is it not? Okay we don't apply the freedom Brits have to travel to India etc. back to people from India. But you are not suggesting that changes so it is fair to Indians etc are you?

I was talking about designing an immigration system that is not 'fair' to immigrants, but works for Britian. Isn't that what people want? Morally people in Africa probably deserve better. Are we going to fix that with our immigration system? No course not. So all this chat about a fair system is rubbish. Moreover it doesn't fit with what Brits actually want. But to pretent Brexit offers a solution to immigration is quite funny. Because it will likley deliver the opposite of what people say they want. If its not clear....

1. We need immigrant labour - the non-skilled hard building work, picking fruit, cleaning up old people in the NHS. Without imigrant labour we would all be paying more taxes to pay more for nursing, builders, fruit etc etc

2. It is clear, Brits prefer EU migrants rather than those from further a field.

3. There is no immigration system that is "fair" to immigrants. That is a misnomer. It is only about what the UK requires. Any pretence that we're looking out for the worlds poor or whatever is a nonsense.

So will Brexit deliver on immigration? You decide.

Only in your right wing view point where immigration has to be the servant of the neoliberal needs of big business.

We don't need economic immigration if we get off that broken system (I'm pro social immigration though)

 

[scaramanga]

Call it what you like but it was a concession made by the EU at the request of the UK government, and making it UK wide was a further concession.

It was a scheme cooked up with UK traitors who plotted to lock the UK into a form of remaining from which we could never leave. They planned to sell it to the electorate as a form of leaving but it was nothing of the sort.

It wasn't a concession at all, it was a scenario where Remain and the EU got everything they wanted and the taxpayer gets fudged again.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Only in your right wing view point where immigration has to be the servant of the neoliberal needs of big business.

We don't need economic immigration if we get off that broken system (I'm pro social immigration though)

A points system based on how good a dancer or joke teller you are?

 

[Gutter Boy]

A points system based on how good a dancer or joke teller you are?

Just compassion, love and civilisation as the fundamental basis, rather than how little wages they will work for.

So a system geared to asylum, spouses, family relationships and students, not low paid fodder for the corporations

 

[Gutter Boy]

Call it what you like but it was a concession made by the EU at the request of the UK government, and making it UK wide was a further concession.

It's a permanent BINO. All our economic policy would remain dictated by the EU.

Until we can economically diverge based on sovereign decisions by government, we're as oppressed as ever

 

[Robspur12]

Just compassion, love and civilisation as the fundamental basis, rather than how little wages they will work for.

So a system geared to asylum, spouses, family relationships and students, not low paid fodder for the corporations

Haha I love your posts mate but if you think corporations will stop bringing people in on low wages just because we are out of the EU then you are naïve I'm afraid. They'll still do it but it will just be from all parts of the world and be a little more complicated.

 

[Robspur12]

What are you on about. The choosing process can be fair. The idea that you're being unfair just because you are choosing one person and not another is ridiculous, as long as the process is applied to all applicants in the same way, without prejudice. What we would be doing is judging that person on their history and abilities. NOT race age colour sex gender religion nationality etc.

To be 'fair' as you suggest would be my option 1...to let everyone in as they please... which would be ridiculous, beautiful if possible, but ridiculous.

This obsession with a "fairer" immigration system is misguided. We have a system now that is fair for the rest of the world, that is how my parents and most of my family came here. Look around you, if you live in London there are plenty of people from the rest of the world, Sri Lankans, Brazilians, Afghani, Fillipino Korean, to name a few. The advantage of the EU system is that it allowed our citizens to go and find work in other member states more easily. We have thrown that away. We do not have those rights with the rest of the world and it gave us real flexibility in the job market.

I stress again that immigration was a huge issue during the referendum. People were not voting for a replacement of EU citizens with those from the rest of the world.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Haha I love your posts mate but if you think corporations will stop bringing people in on low wages just because we are out of the EU then you are naïve I'm afraid. They'll still do it but it will just be from all parts of the world and be a little more complicated.

One of the key points of brexit is giving the government back power over the corporations, whose interests the EU promote.

We could for instance put in a (high) minimum salary requirement for work visas, like Australia does. Then companies are suddenly incentivised to train, rather than import their workforce

 

[Robspur12]

It's a permanent BINO. All our economic policy would remain dictated by the EU.

Until we can economically diverge based on sovereign decisions by government, we're as oppressed as ever

I think you need to look up the word "oppressed," we are the 5th biggest economy in the world. Outside the EU, our biggest and easiest trading partner our economy is predicted to contract.

 

[Robspur12]

One of the key points of brexit is giving the government back power over the corporations, whose interests the EU promote.

We could for instance put in a (high) minimum salary requirement for visas, like Australia does

No we won't because we wouldn't have any one to do the service/ low paid jobs. It's a pipe dream. It's how my parents came to this country.

 

[Gutter Boy]

No we won't because we wouldn't have any one to do the service/ low paid jobs. It's a pipe dream. It's how my parents came to this country.

There's automation and there can be better distribution of useful work once the economy goes steady state

 

[Baleforce]

One of the key points of brexit is giving the government back power over the corporations, whose interests the EU promote.

We could for instance put in a (high) minimum salary requirement for work visas, like Australia does. Then companies are suddenly incentivised to train, rather than import their workforce

If you believe that I've got a bridge for sale you might be interested in

 

[Gutter Boy]

I think you need to look up the word "oppressed," we are the 5th biggest economy in the world. Outside the EU, our biggest and easiest trading partner our economy is predicted to contract.

So economic polity being outside of democracy is not oppression?

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

This obsession with a "fairer" immigration system is misguided. We have a system now that is fair for the rest of the world, that is how my parents and most of my family came here. Look around you, if you live in London there are plenty of people from the rest of the world, Sri Lankans, Brazilians, Afghani, Fillipino Korean, to name a few. The advantage of the EU system is that it allowed our citizens to go and find work in other member states more easily. We have thrown that away. We do not have those rights with the rest of the world and it gave us real flexibility in the job market.

I stress again that immigration was a huge issue during the referendum. People were not voting for a replacement of EU citizens with those from the rest of the world.

I think the system is fundamentally flawed when a European without a job can rock up and start claiming benefits because they have chosen to live here, and we have basically no say in it. All the while an Indian physician has to go through hell to get in, and after maybe 5 years settle.

That is absolutely unfair to my mind. I would be utterly delighted to remove that disparity and treat everybody as equal.

Yes, the EU system allows UK people to move abroad to. But its really not a deal breaker to lose it. Just look at the amount of people emigrating to the US, to Australia etc - it doesnt seem to impede peoples ability to move. It inconveniences it. If you are committed to going, you will go.

Its the same as the whole travel argument, IMHO its nonsense. "Oh no! Ill have to spend 10 minutes filing in a Visa form, and take a different queue at customs - EVERYTHING IS RUINED!!"

People tend to talk as if the EU and UK exist in a bubble. Its very odd.

 

[SpurMeUp]

The Aussie points system - that we are supposedly going to emulate - discriminates on what is desirable for the nation, and is not intersted in fairness to the migrant. Doesn't it look at age and educational qualifications? If you're too old or uneducated you lose points.

All we get back from Brexit is stopping a few Polish people claiming benifits in the UK. When you add it up these EU migrants add a lot more than they take. But as a nation we will lose a lot more than we gain. Freedom to trade and move will be impaired, or things like buying a house or working in France won't be so simple as now. We lose the support of a cartel of nations that looks out for their own. Horrible waste of time this whole debacle.

 

[Robspur12]

So economic polity being outside of democracy is not oppression?

It's not outside of democracy we vote our Euro MPs in and the EC are chosen by the member state governments who are voted in.

 

[Robspur12]

I think the system is fundamentally flawed when a European without a job can rock up and start claiming benefits because they have chosen to live here, and we have basically no say in it. All the while an Indian physician has to go through hell to get in, and after maybe 5 years settle.

That is absolutely unfair to my mind. I would be utterly delighted to remove that disparity and treat everybody as equal.

Yes, the EU system allows UK people to move abroad to. But its really not a deal breaker to lose it. Just look at the amount of people emigrating to the US, to Australia etc - it doesnt seem to impede peoples ability to move. It inconveniences it. If you are committed to going, you will go.

Its the same as the whole travel argument, IMHO its nonsense. "Oh no! Ill have to spend 10 minutes filing in a Visa form, and take a different queue at customs - EVERYTHING IS RUINED!!"

People tend to talk as if the EU and UK exist in a bubble. Its very odd.

We can deport EU individuals who are not "exercising their "treaty rights" i.e those who do not have a home or a job. Most migrants come here to work. Plus Cameron had got a concession on benefits given to EU migrants. The biggy issue is are they paying tax? But that is for HMRC to enforce.

The trade off for EU migrants coming here and to select them against rest of the world migrants is that our citizens can go to other countries too.

The new system will not make it easier for Indian Doctors, just make it the same "hell" for everyone. What needed changing perhaps was the way we dealt with applications for certain groups of workers. Not rejecting the EU.

 

[Rorschach]

It was a scheme cooked up with UK traitors who plotted to lock the UK into a form of remaining from which we could never leave. They planned to sell it to the electorate as a form of leaving but it was nothing of the sort.

It wasn't a concession at all, it was a scenario where Remain and the EU got everything they wanted and the taxpayer gets fudged again.

Lol

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

We can deport EU individuals who are not "exercising their "treaty rights" i.e those who do not have a home or a job. Most migrants come here to work. Plus Cameron had got a concession on benefits given to EU migrants. The biggy issue is are they paying tax? But that is for HMRC to enforce.

The trade off for EU migrants coming here and to select them against rest of the world migrants is that our citizens can go to other countries too.

As I understand it, so long as there is a cursory attempt to find work, we cant do any of that. So its not really a solution. Instead, in the case he applies to McDonalds, we are obliged to house and feed him and offer him all our hospitality.

And its also a case of trying to lock the door once the horse has bolted. Mr EU has come over anyway, before we were even able to decide whether or not to welcome him. And then, to "correct" that issue (unfortunate phrasing) in the event he just became homeless and jobless, we need to go through deportation procedures as well. Which of course he would fight. And probably win.

The whole situation is one of time and money, that could easily have been prevented in the first place if we had permission to control our own borders.

The trade off, of actually having that control, vs the freedom to just welcome ourselves into EU countries, is more than worth it. Going through a visa application is a perfectly valid thing.