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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

Finney Is Back said:
Or is it just that Poch and Biesla have always been managers of teams who aren't at the top table of resources and therefore are very unlikely to take that final step?
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Acceptable if said teams never got close to winning. Fact is we have been in the running for the league, FA Cup & CL runners up and quite a few domestic cup QF & SF appearances under Poch

The fact is we haven't converted 1 of those chances?

I like the guy, but he's lost, are we a defensive team? (we concede too much), are we an attacking team (we don't score enough despite having some of the best attacking talent in the league), are we a possession/pressing side? list goes on ..
 
Raziel said:
Acceptable if said teams never got close to winning. Fact is we have been in the running for the league, FA Cup & CL runners up and quite a few domestic cup QF & SF appearances under Poch

The fact is we haven't converted 1 of those chances?

I like the guy, but he's lost, are we a defensive team? (we concede too much), are we an attacking team (we don't score enough despite having some of the best attacking talent in the league), are we a possession/pressing side? list goes on ..
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As I said before.... Is it because he isn't at that real top elite level club? Have we had to expend so much energy getting there that we're at a disadvantage to the other team at the end who have got there more easily? Is the fact that our squad has typically been smaller meant that we're less able to cover for the inevitable injuries in the semi's and finals that tend to fall late in the season?

At the moment I think we are a team in transition. I think Poch wants us to move to that 4-4-2 diamond full time. I think N'Dombele, Lo Celso and Sessegnon are all be players that would fit into that. Add a proper base of the diamond player and a top class, pacy, attacking right back (i.e. Atal) and we're pretty much there.

I'm just as worried as many are that the manager is still using a number of players who probably aren't part of his plans for where we want to end up. I was thinking about this the other night and wondered whether perhaps the manager is doing this because he knows it is difficult to change systems and is therefore choosing to rely on some of the more senior players who may have more experience and implement a new system more easily?
 
Finney Is Back said:
As I said before.... Is it because he isn't at that real top elite level club? Have we had to expend so much energy getting there that we're at a disadvantage to the other team at the end who have got there more easily? Is the fact that our squad has typically been smaller meant that we're less able to cover for the inevitable injuries in the semi's and finals that tend to fall late in the season?
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If Mourinho was in charge of us in any of those finals, semi-finals etc and everything else was equal we would be sitting here with silverware.

Others like Pep have studied under Bielsa and then gone their own way with his ideas but Poch is the one that is closest to him in terms of
philosophy. I don't know if that means anything in results but there really is a strange similarity between the way their teams fall just short, and what we're going through now is how Bielsa's tenure's all seemingly end.
 
fernadez said:
If Mourinho was in charge of us in any of those finals, semi-finals etc and everything else was equal we would be sitting here with silverware.

Others like Pep have studied under Bielsa and then gone their own way with his ideas but Poch is the one that is closest to him in terms of
philosophy. I don't know if that means anything in results but there really is a strange similarity between the way their teams fall just short, and what we're going through now is how Bielsa's tenure's all seemingly end.
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You're probably right. The question is whether we would've got there in the first place.

I take a slightly different tactical point of view to you. I don't think that Poch's tactics are that close to Biesla's. We aren't a team who always deploy the total press. In Poch's early days we pressed a lot more than we do now but it tended to be selective pressing I felt.
 
Finney Is Back said:
You're probably right. The question is whether we would've got there in the first place.

I take a slightly different tactical point of view to you. I don't think that Poch's tactics are that close to Biesla's. We aren't a team who always deploy the total press. In Poch's early days we pressed a lot more than we do now but it tended to be selective pressing I felt.
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It don't even feel like it's selective anymore. It's more like, if Lamela plays we press, if he doesn't nobody else can/will anymore.
 
glasgowspur said:
Seen that to, don't think he'll go yet.
And the Leeds job isn't exactly a golden ticket, is it?
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Leeds is a poisoned chalice.

And my assumption was Gerrard would look for success at Rangers before moving on, especially as there really is only one team to beat to get a trophy.

Wasnt clear to me if the idea was Biesla was in for the sack, or perhaps leaving of his own accord?
 
Finney Is Back said:
Or is it just that Poch and Biesla have always been managers of teams who aren't at the top table of resources and therefore are very unlikely to take that final step?
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The Spurs team/Squad he had was capable of winning suff

We have just gone through a period of time where all of the top 6 have won something other than Spurs, even Leicester managed the league.

On paper for 2 seasons we had the best team in England.

He had the tools to win something with spurs.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
If it is the old guard causing problems - why do we need to wait to sort it out? Why hasnt he already?

There seems to be an odd theme around of Poch getting an utterly free pass for a while for no real reason. Do what he likes, rooster up what he likes, its all good - he has credit in the bank...

My criticism of him to date (and concern) is the issues Im looking at he could have fixed already! In that instance, why would I wait longer and longer to see if he works it out?! 14 games is plenty to expect to see signs of work being done, solutions found etc.
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First of all, if it is as easy as you say to sort out the old guard, then why do you suppose the man hasn’t done it? You are -by proxy- essentially calling him stupid.

“Odd theme...free pass...fudge up what he likes...”
Yeah, he DOES have plenty of credit in the bank, and some of us still believe that as long as he wants it, he will get us rising again.

As for the last bit, run looking for a new bird just because your marriage has hit a sticky patch if that is your DNA (not mine I can assure you) but before you wax lyrical about how “simple” it all is, who could he have picked, and what formation mitigates, 44th minute concessions against the Goons, Olympiakos and Bayern?

I have wanted Toby out for over a year (to the sound of crickets until a couple of weeks ago) and Eriksen was another I’d have moved on without. Neither would fudging leave/Levy could not give them away as it would be a poor optic. I think every reasonable supporter expected more from both, especially Eriksen, who has previous for this “loss of form” (happened around his last contract)...
 
Raziel said:
Poch's training methods are the same as Bielsa's, and so far in decades of testing show ability to effect parts of season, lift sides to a point, but has never turned a side into winners. Maybe the players have realized that after 5 years, they aren't getting any better and the only advice their manager can give is run harder ...

Have you never worked for someone who's advice/direction you know from experience simply isn't going to work? this is what the squad is saying right now seemingly, and Spurs fans and pundits are saying well maybe we should get rid of players and get in new ones who haven't figured it out yet, so will just run into a wall again for Poch .. makes no sense.
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I see.
How do you explain his trying a new system and signing a more dynamic midfielder? That to me looks like he is trying something new. And the truth? The old guard - some of whom spent the last 24 months spouting off in the press (Rose, Alderweireld, Eriksen) have simply decided they don’t want to (Rose gets a pass as he runs his gonad*s off).

I’m sorry, any players that aren’t getting any “better” after 5 years need to step up their game or leave. If they didn’t like it, get out when they had numerous chances. Instead they stuck around. Not getting any better? Come on mate...only five months ago they had the chance to win the biggest game in club football and didn’t really show up! If they’d played for 30 mins that night like they did the first 30 against Bayern, they’d have won! When will they carry some responsibility for their displays and behaviour?
 
fernadez said:
If Mourinho was in charge of us in any of those finals, semi-finals etc and everything else was equal we would be sitting here with silverware.

Others like Pep have studied under Bielsa and then gone their own way with his ideas but Poch is the one that is closest to him in terms of
philosophy. I don't know if that means anything in results but there really is a strange similarity between the way their teams fall just short, and what we're going through now is how Bielsa's tenure's all seemingly end.
Click to expand...

What do Mourinho and Pep have in common besides trophies? Resources. A lot of fudging cash. It does help.::
 
thfcsteff said:
I see.
How do you explain his trying a new system and signing a more dynamic midfielder? That to me looks like he is trying something new. And the truth? The old guard - some of whom spent the last 24 months spouting off in the press (Rose, Alderweireld, Eriksen) have simply decided they don’t want to (Rose gets a pass as he runs his gonad*s off).

I’m sorry, any players that aren’t getting any “better” after 5 years need to step up their game or leave. If they didn’t like it, get out when they had numerous chances. Instead they stuck around. Not getting any better? Come on mate...only five months ago they had the chance to win the biggest game in club football and didn’t really show up! If they’d played for 30 mins that night like they did the first 30 against Bayern, they’d have won! When will they carry some responsibility for their displays and behaviour?
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I agree with a lot of this, re player responsibility, though the coach ultimately gets the credit for winning trophies (or not) in most cases. the line of responsibiloity and kudos can be very blurred.

I do take issue with one thing though: out of the 3 you listed only Rose was constantly spouting to the press. It's TOTALLY unfair imo to lump the other two with Rose: they might not have signed a contract or moved on, but they absolutely kept their mouths shut unlike Rose and your re-writing history here to make a point i feel
 
thfcsteff said:
I see.
How do you explain his trying a new system and signing a more dynamic midfielder? That to me looks like he is trying something new. And the truth? The old guard - some of whom spent the last 24 months spouting off in the press (Rose, Alderweireld, Eriksen) have simply decided they don’t want to (Rose gets a pass as he runs his gonad*s off).

I’m sorry, any players that aren’t getting any “better” after 5 years need to step up their game or leave. If they didn’t like it, get out when they had numerous chances. Instead they stuck around. Not getting any better? Come on mate...only five months ago they had the chance to win the biggest game in club football and didn’t really show up! If they’d played for 30 mins that night like they did the first 30 against Bayern, they’d have won! When will they carry some responsibility for their displays and behaviour?
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If you need a manager to motivate you to turn, never mind win, in the final of the biggest prize in club football then you shouldn't be there.
End of.
 
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