Thoughts from a Coventry fan - a really nice read

[Jordinho]

Once we've played Chelsea, City and Arsenal we can compare with how we fared against them in the first half of the season to see if we've gotten better at playing the bigger teams.

 

[jimmyb]

I disagree.

Sometimes strange results happen. If we go and beat united 3-0 at home does it mean we are a better team then them? Or if they come and beat us 6-0 does it means we are an extremely poor team?


With only one game the relevance is far less then a consistent set of performances.

Once again, it's not the potential result that I'm getting at. It's the performance - specifically in relation to our pressing game. If we can make it work for us against a good technical team like Man Utd, then we can be far more certain that AVB's ideas are getting through to the players.

Making the pressing game work against technically inferior teams is great. But it is not the litmus test for that particular strategy for the simple reason that such teams are not great at retaining possession anyway.

 

[Jordinho]

I still maintain that the performance in a one off game can't be used to determine whether we've got it right or not.

 

[jimmyb]

Once we've played Chelsea, City and Arsenal we can compare with how we fared against them in the first half of the season to see if we've gotten better at playing the bigger teams.

Well yes, of course the bigger the sample size, the truer the picture. But that doesn't mean that the performance against Utd, in isolation, can't also tell us a lot.

 

[jimmyb]

I still maintain that the performance in a one off game can't be used to determine whether we've got it right or not.

Sigh.....I've never suggested that one performance would determine whether or not we've got anything right. We'll still be far from the finished article. I've merely said that it will give us an indication that AVB's ideas are genuinely getting through to the players.

Anyway, fella. We'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[Spursalot]

Once again, it's not the potential result that I'm getting at. It's the performance - specifically in relation to our pressing game. If we can make it work for us against a good technical team like Man Utd, then we can be far more certain that AVB's ideas are getting through to the players.

Making the pressing game work against technically inferior teams is great. But it is not the litmus test for that particular strategy for the simple reason that such teams are not great at retaining possession anyway.

The same applies to the performance. It's a 38 game season. Every team has bad performances and every team will have good performances.

Granted the Manager should made good performances more often than bad ones, however you will never eradicate the bad ones.


Which is why a series of games is more relevant.

 

[jimmyb]

The same applies to the performance. It's a 38 game season. Every team has bad performances and every team will have good performances.

Granted the Manager should made good performances more often than bad ones, however you will never eradicate the bad ones.


Which is why a series of games is more relevant.

Yes....as I've already said, of course a bigger sample size will give a truer picture.

But that doesn't mean that we won't learn much about how well the team is adapting to AVB's ideas from the performance against Utd.

 

[Wriggly]

True, we beat Utd at OT. But it was like the Alamo in the second half. Under siege. We held out by parking the bus.

But the team has moved on since then. The players have taken on board much of AVB's philosophy - if not anything like all of it yet. We are dominating possession in pretty much every game.

But many of our recent performances have been against weaker opposition who are easily forced into losing possession. That's why the Utd game will be a proper litmus test. Can we press them effectively and then keep possession ourselves? Or is our pressing game not yet sufficiently honed to force a technically gifted team into conceding possession quickly enough? If it isn't, then we will burn out long before the end of the game and, if we have anything to hold on to by that point, we will have to produce more backs to the wall heroics.

It's difficult against Utd though, when I think about it, it could be pretty unfair to judge us against a team like them. Utd can turn up and turn any team over, I wouldnt think it would reflect bad on that team, its just Utd can do that to you. To be honest, If we get spanked and then score a fluke goal in the 94th min to win it 1-0 I'd be more than happy. I would probably reserve my judgement of how AVB is creating this Spurs side till we play someone more on our level. imo.

 

[skyfarer]

I'd take the middle road and see how we are after playing a number of the better teams I think it takes a fair bit of time to implement a manager's ideas anyways, especially as AVB hasn't really gotten 'his' players so far. I'd like to give him two or three more transfer windows before passing judgement.

It's certainly true that our players might simply be up for a glamour match that we're not expected to win anyways, and we'll be affected by injuries (see: loss of Dembele in our tougher games), but I also think the performance would be important in assessing technical gaps beyond workrate and mentality. Like, are Utd/City/Chelsea just passing around us with ease despite our pressing, is our passing noticeably slower or less precise than theirs, how effectively can we create against more open teams that are also very good, have we been getting away with mistakes that better teams would punish, etc. Even when those clubs lose or have a bad day at the office, you still tend to see them creating plenty of good chances or mostly control midfield or look a class above in terms of touch, passing, etc.

Aspects like shape, organization, workrate can still allow us to compete effectively against them in head-to-head games, but if we want to be in the top four and challenge in the CL, I don't think we can afford a huge gulf in technical class between us and Chelsea at least. I'm not saying there is one, just that if there is it'd be clearer to see when we step on the same pitch as our benchmarks - the title-chasing clubs. Looking good against crappy teams is obviously very useful (indeed, perhaps the only thing we need to finish top four), but the better measure of our quality and upper limits comes from a real challenge. I won't be crowing after one classy performance against Utd, but I'll start getting quietly confident that we're the real deal if we can keep going toe-to-toe (not necessarily in terms of winning, but performance-wise) with the rest of the big boys.

 

[Golfball]

we are begining to see the benefit of AVB's coaching, we are much more of a team unit and working for each other. We used to be a team of individuals which made us look good when it all worked but we are a much more structured team and will be more consistent.

Classic example of what you expect (or possibly want) to be true, but actually is way off. Cant think of what you are referring to with that statement.

How can you possibly look at our team this season and think we are more of a unit, when last season for most of it we were a complete team and put in complete performances. This season has seen us look pretty clueless at times with individuals doing what they want, with more individual goals than I've ever seen before. And you are welcome to bring out the excuses that shift any blame from AVB, as the reason why we haven't looked a team is irrelevant to the debate. The fact is we have a way to go to get back to the level we have previously seen in terms of team performances.

Now what is true, is that we are looking more of a team now than we have done at any other point this season. But comparing it with what we "used" to be, we have some work to do to get back to consistently putting in great team performances. We might press better than before, but theres a lot more to football than that - and some people forget that under Harry our pressing was very good. Hopefully AVB is just a slow starter and now he understands a lot more about this group of players we will hit a high level, but lets not pretend he has come in and coached us into a team - as we already were. A lot of our players have hit a high level in the past, then AVB took over and we stopped doing certain things, now they are starting to do it again. Just looks like a classic case of new manager trying to do something, realised it wasnt working and looked at what has worked for these players.

And if your expectation of AVB is to have us be more of a team and be more consistent than we have been, then I think you might be disappointed as even if he gets these players playing at their very best I cant imagine it is possible for us to get into the top 2 (possibly even 3) given their squads compared to ours. So realistically we can expect matching last season + a few more points as the very best any manager can do with Spurs. I hope with this manager people are realistic and recognise what the top outcome is.

 

[jimmyb]

Classic example of what you expect (or possibly want) to be true, but actually is way off. Cant think of what you are referring to with that statement.

How can you possibly look at our team this season and think we are more of a unit, when last season for most of it we were a complete team and put in complete performances. This season has seen us look pretty clueless at times with individuals doing what they want, with more individual goals than I've ever seen before. And you are welcome to bring out the excuses that shift any blame from AVB, as the reason why we haven't looked a team is irrelevant to the debate. The fact is we have a way to go to get back to the level we have previously seen in terms of team performances.

Now what is true, is that we are looking more of a team now than we have done at any other point this season. But comparing it with what we "used" to be, we have some work to do to get back to consistently putting in great team performances. We might press better than before, but theres a lot more to football than that - and some people forget that under Harry our pressing was very good. Hopefully AVB is just a slow starter and now he understands a lot more about this group of players we will hit a high level, but lets not pretend he has come in and coached us into a team - as we already were. A lot of our players have hit a high level in the past, then AVB took over and we stopped doing certain things, now they are starting to do it again. Just looks like a classic case of new manager trying to do something, realised it wasnt working and looked at what has worked for these players.

And if your expectation of AVB is to have us be more of a team and be more consistent than we have been, then I think you might be disappointed as even if he gets these players playing at their very best I cant imagine it is possible for us to get into the top 2 (possibly even 3) given their squads compared to ours. So realistically we can expect matching last season + a few more points as the very best any manager can do with Spurs. I hope with this manager people are realistic and recognise what the top outcome is.

Your description of our overall performance last season is as much an example of what you want to be true and as way off as you claim parklane1's post to be.

We were very good after the first two embarrassing games last season, all the way through to January. But after that, our form was horrible. We didn't play well as a team at all, despite there being continuity of both management and players.

I agree that many of our performances this season have been disjointed. But I'm not the only one who has noticed that things appear to have begun to click since mid December. No cause for celebration yet. But cause to plant a small seed of hope? Most definitely.

 

[Pandy]

Your description of our overall performance last season is as much an example of what you want to be true and as way off as you claim parklane1's post to be.

We were very good after the first two embarrassing games last season, all the way through to January. But after that, our form was horrible. We didn't play well as a team at all, despite there being continuity of both management and players.

I agree that many of our performances this season have been disjointed. But I'm not the only one who has noticed that things appear to have begun to click since mid December. No cause for celebration yet. But cause to plant a small seed of hope? Most definitely.

Agreed. With the clear team dynamics and tactical goals (such as high pressure and winning the ball back quickly) that have begun to click recently, we should not be as prone to a collapse as we were last season. I think these were lacking under Redknapp and the variability of our performances across the season reflected that. If we had a more structured tactical approach we could have better coped with a dip in form. As has already been suggested, it is this sort of tactical consistency that can be drilled into a team and will get them results even whilst playing badly.

I think we still have a very long way to go though. As Golfball suggested, we have still relied on individual efforts quite heavily this season. A lot of our goals have come on the break in spite of our efforts to dominate possession. As we continue to adhere to AVB's methods I think we will see our capability of unpicking stern defences improve. While it is encouraging that we rarely give away goals in the first half, we also rarely score them. Our circulation of the ball is at a level where we can pass begin to tire teams out during the first period to lay the foundations for second half dominance, but we are still not good enough to consistently break these teams down and take the lead before half time. This would have course make the opposition's attempts at winning the ball more urgent, meaning they will be more easily provoked to move out of position, therefore leaving us with a better chance of scoring subsequent goals (even when the opposition's defensive line is in place, not only through counter-attacks, which is how we often kill off teams that we take the lead against).

However it must also be stated that Redknapp's total lack of rotation contributed to our players' dip in performances towards the back end of the season. Again, I think this is something that AVB is working on (although at the moment he doesn't really have an adequate squad to rotate as frequently as is ideal to maintain energy levels for the whole season).

 

[skyfarer]

I actually felt that a number of our performances in our good run under Harry first-half last season were very nerve-wracking, particularly the away games. The one that's stuck with me is Fulham - we were completely destroyed by them and it was a wonder they didn't score six. Luckily, we'd consistently get saved by our counter-attacking prowess with VdV and Ade's quick link-up play, and Parker making last-ditch tackles to make up for our wingers' inconsistent workrate off the ball.

That's why I felt our run couldn't last, besides the fitness issue with our never-rotating lineup - we might be wonderfully fluid and expressive going forward, but we couldn't control midfield in away games. We were trading punches back and forth, it just so happened that we were rather more lethal with our left hook than most of the league. But while we might have the players to punish anyone, eventually our uneven grasp of the game would cost us. That's why I obsess so much over high-technique, clever passers who can orchestrate the game rather than superb dribblers. The latter might be more eye-catching, but they need a platform to perform on, and they need to work as part of a team and know *when* to beat a man and when to one-touch pass our way through.

***

Having said that, I've felt that many of our performances this season have not only been distinctly uninspired in an attacking sense (certainly compared to last season), but pretty awful in terms of controlling the game. Only recently have we finally begun to exert calmness in midfield.

But I want to place this in context, because for me, the summer transfer window was awful and the squad AVB was left with was unbalanced. We did not get bad players by any means - in fact, I'd say almost all our signings are great players - but we did not get enough players. We lost and did not replenish key qualities essential to a team. We lost our five highest passers to sales or injury, and brought in players known more for their one-on-one ability or prolific tackling than a Spanish ethos of marrying one-touch passing with footballing intelligence.

Most egregious was our loss of brains and creativity through the middle - without VdV, Modric, and Ade, we now have no one who can consistently see and create openings or deliver perfectly-weighted throughballs (though we've seen a few great threaded passes sporadically from the likes of Naughton and Siggy). We are now more dependent on an individual dribble or sudden wingplay to create a chance. I'm not saying our new midfield signings are mediocre players by any means, just that none of them excel in dictating and orchestrating the game, in clever one-touch passing or imaginative playmaking.

However, recently we've started to look more organized, certainly in the pressing sense. Our possession numbers are higher now and last throughout the whole game, and to me Bale, Lennon, and Defoe look substantially more consistent with their workrate off the ball than they ever were. Of course, there could be a lot of reasons for why we're looking better besides coaching - we're playing pretty crap teams; we've been playing away where we've looked better all season; we've got Dembele back in place of the defensive nonentity that is Hudd; we've got Ade in who is much more of a natural at holding up the ball in the final third than Defoe/Dempsey, in form or not; our back five have settled and benefited from Lloris's aggressiveness in stopping chances before they start, etc.

I do think, though, that you can see in recent games like at Sunderland a disciplined, purposeful team effort at *controlling* the game. It's not just about the form of certain players picking up - everyone seems to be upping their workrate off the ball. I did see this under Harry too, but not consistently, and actually more often in the first season we finished fourth than our gung-ho last season. We are now allowing far fewer chances and to me, that is a promising sign because teams are built from the back.

We still look labored attacking-wise and far too eager to randomly shoot and see what sticks, but I'm not sure how much AVB can do about that outside the transfer window. I believe the problem is fundamentally about our lack of visionary playmakers and orchestrators - too many of our players take an extra touch when receiving a pass (compare this to, say, Holtby's teammates at Schalke) or wait on the ball looking for runs, or drive forward with the ball when it'd be smarter to pass. We need new blood in this squad. It's not about having superstar individuals, it's about achieving the best balance and the best system.

 

[parklane1]

Classic example of what you expect (or possibly want) to be true, but actually is way off. Cant think of what you are referring to with that statement.

How can you possibly look at our team this season and think we are more of a unit, when last season for most of it we were a complete team and put in complete performances. This season has seen us look pretty clueless at times with individuals doing what they want, with more individual goals than I've ever seen before. And you are welcome to bring out the excuses that shift any blame from AVB, as the reason why we haven't looked a team is irrelevant to the debate. The fact is we have a way to go to get back to the level we have previously seen in terms of team performances.

Now what is true, is that we are looking more of a team now than we have done at any other point this season. But comparing it with what we "used" to be, we have some work to do to get back to consistently putting in great team performances. We might press better than before, but theres a lot more to football than that - and some people forget that under Harry our pressing was very good. Hopefully AVB is just a slow starter and now he understands a lot more about this group of players we will hit a high level, but lets not pretend he has come in and coached us into a team - as we already were. A lot of our players have hit a high level in the past, then AVB took over and we stopped doing certain things, now they are starting to do it again. Just looks like a classic case of new manager trying to do something, realised it wasnt working and looked at what has worked for these players.

And if your expectation of AVB is to have us be more of a team and be more consistent than we have been, then I think you might be disappointed as even if he gets these players playing at their very best I cant imagine it is possible for us to get into the top 2 (possibly even 3) given their squads compared to ours. So realistically we can expect matching last season + a few more points as the very best any manager can do with Spurs. I hope with this manager people are realistic and recognise what the top outcome is.

i have seen it with my own eyes at the grounds, but if you say different A'rry then i guess it must be true

 

[Jurgen the German]

Nice to see a view from an opposing fan. A more balanced view than you'd get from our rivals who would more than likely say that our bubble is about to burst, were not that good really or some other crap. Only thing that worries me is you would have said the exact same thing at this point last season as we were playing much better than Arsenal and looked a good bet to finish above them. But as a Spurs fan, I'm conditioned to think that Arsenal will come good, or we'll blow it and they'll do just about what they have to to finish above us. Sorry for the negativity at the end.

 

[Jordinho]

Unlike last season I still feel there's more to come from us. Not at all worried about burnout yet.

 

[jimmyb]

Nice to see a view from an opposing fan. A more balanced view than you'd get from our rivals who would more than likely say that our bubble is about to burst, were not that good really or some other crap. Only thing that worries me is you would have said the exact same thing at this point last season as we were playing much better than Arsenal and looked a good bet to finish above them. But as a Spurs fan, I'm conditioned to think that Arsenal will come good, or we'll blow it and they'll do just about what they have to to finish above us. Sorry for the negativity at the end.

It's very possible that, like last season, Arsenal will get better.

But I think it unlikely that, like last season, we will get worse. This season, I expect us also to get better.

Whether we'll improve enough to stay in the top four is another matter.

 

[AuroRaman]

I actually felt that a number of our performances in our good run under Harry first-half last season were very nerve-wracking, particularly the away games. The one that's stuck with me is Fulham - we were completely destroyed by them and it was a wonder they didn't score six. Luckily, we'd consistently get saved by our counter-attacking prowess with VdV and Ade's quick link-up play, and Parker making last-ditch tackles to make up for our wingers' inconsistent workrate off the ball.

That's why I felt our run couldn't last, besides the fitness issue with our never-rotating lineup - we might be wonderfully fluid and expressive going forward, but we couldn't control midfield in away games. We were trading punches back and forth, it just so happened that we were rather more lethal with our left hook than most of the league. But while we might have the players to punish anyone, eventually our uneven grasp of the game would cost us. That's why I obsess so much over high-technique, clever passers who can orchestrate the game rather than superb dribblers. The latter might be more eye-catching, but they need a platform to perform on, and they need to work as part of a team and know *when* to beat a man and when to one-touch pass our way through.

***

Having said that, I've felt that many of our performances this season have not only been distinctly uninspired in an attacking sense (certainly compared to last season), but pretty awful in terms of controlling the game. Only recently have we finally begun to exert calmness in midfield.

But I want to place this in context, because for me, the summer transfer window was awful and the squad AVB was left with was unbalanced. We did not get bad players by any means - in fact, I'd say almost all our signings are great players - but we did not get enough players. We lost and did not replenish key qualities essential to a team. We lost our five highest passers to sales or injury, and brought in players known more for their one-on-one ability or prolific tackling than a Spanish ethos of marrying one-touch passing with footballing intelligence.

Most egregious was our loss of brains and creativity through the middle - without VdV, Modric, and Ade, we now have no one who can consistently see and create openings or deliver perfectly-weighted throughballs (though we've seen a few great threaded passes sporadically from the likes of Naughton and Siggy). We are now more dependent on an individual dribble or sudden wingplay to create a chance. I'm not saying our new midfield signings are mediocre players by any means, just that none of them excel in dictating and orchestrating the game, in clever one-touch passing or imaginative playmaking.

However, recently we've started to look more organized, certainly in the pressing sense. Our possession numbers are higher now and last throughout the whole game, and to me Bale, Lennon, and Defoe look substantially more consistent with their workrate off the ball than they ever were. Of course, there could be a lot of reasons for why we're looking better besides coaching - we're playing pretty crap teams; we've been playing away where we've looked better all season; we've got Dembele back in place of the defensive nonentity that is Hudd; we've got Ade in who is much more of a natural at holding up the ball in the final third than Defoe/Dempsey, in form or not; our back five have settled and benefited from Lloris's aggressiveness in stopping chances before they start, etc.

I do think, though, that you can see in recent games like at Sunderland a disciplined, purposeful team effort at *controlling* the game. It's not just about the form of certain players picking up - everyone seems to be upping their workrate off the ball. I did see this under Harry too, but not consistently, and actually more often in the first season we finished fourth than our gung-ho last season. We are now allowing far fewer chances and to me, that is a promising sign because teams are built from the back.

We still look labored attacking-wise and far too eager to randomly shoot and see what sticks, but I'm not sure how much AVB can do about that outside the transfer window. I believe the problem is fundamentally about our lack of visionary playmakers and orchestrators - too many of our players take an extra touch when receiving a pass (compare this to, say, Holtby's teammates at Schalke) or wait on the ball looking for runs, or drive forward with the ball when it'd be smarter to pass. We need new blood in this squad. It's not about having superstar individuals, it's about achieving the best balance and the best system.

What a fantastic post.

 

[ArcspacE]

Not since 1844, I think.

Possibly, even earlier.