The Goon Thread - Officially Second In A One Horse Race

[Neymar]

I don't think it's his ability to coach, but his philosophies that's the problem. Too concerned about proving points, not compromising on certain things.

what philosophies? wenger seems to be the only manager in elite football concerned with balancing the books of the business he is effectively ceo for. this isnt a "philosophy"- its just running a business with common sense

 

[milo]

...when they underperformed... same as with us really - he's not once challenged for the title since the league stepped in to modern era, that would have been over acheiving and the sign of a top tier manager

And this year he's really missed a trick because they are two players away from being in with a good shout if Chelsea and City slip up.

 

[Neymar]

he's not once challenged for the title

hugely debateable imo. i would argue he has got arsenal to be serious challengers for a few seasons over the past decade

 

[billyiddo]

hugely debateable imo. i would argue he has got Ar5ena1 to be serious challengers for a few seasons over the past decade

Which seasons were they?

 

[SpurMeUp]

They were saying on Football Weekly earlier in the month that the board had to force through the move for Ozil because Wenger kept dithering and got cold feet over the fee.

There you go. Though you could argue, as Neymar does, that it wasn't value for money. I couldn't see Levy brokering that deal. Just because he was from a huge club his price was Galactico. So you can see where Wenger was coming from. Instead they should be buying the Martials, Son's etc up and coming cheaper wages talent. That is what they used to do well.

 

[Neymar]

Which seasons were they?

i cant remember off the top of my head. but the eduardo season springs to mind. also they have been completely in the title race until around may in a number of seasons iirc (and if memory serves me right, they sometimes even lead at this point)

 

[milo]

There you go. Though you could argue, as Neymar does, that it wasn't value for money. I couldn't see Levy brokering that deal. Just because he was from a huge club his price was Galactico. So you can see where Wenger was coming from. Instead they should be buying the Martials, Son's etc up and coming cheaper wages talent. That is what they used to do well.

If the club are having to go behind his back to complete deals, it does not point to there being a productive working relationship. It also seems odd if he is concerned with balancing the books like @Neymar says but his board want him to spend money. Seems a bit arse about tit to me.

 

[Jordinho]

what philosophies? wenger seems to be the only manager in elite football concerned with balancing the books of the business he is effectively ceo for. this isnt a "philosophy"- its just running a business with common sense

I don't really care enough about them to go into any in depth analysis, but balancing the books is not one his priorities as I see it. He sticks with average, overpaid players for years just because they came through their youth system. He won't sign anyone unless they're some unknown from France or it's just a necessity. Mertesacker was a panic buy. He loves signing AMs for some reason though. Not recognising obvious flaws in his tactics, such as their porous CM.

 

[SpurMeUp]

You would be frustrated as a Goon. You know that with a few shrewd signings you'd be up there. A great coach. Some talented player. But a failing scouting system and transfer policy. If that is because of Wenger then maybe there is strong case for him to go. For us however....fantastic that Wenger has screwed up with transfers. Yes they have cash, but its no good in the bank.

 

[Neymar]

There you go. Though you could argue, as Neymar does, that it wasn't value for money. I couldn't see Levy brokering that deal. Just because he was from a huge club his price was Galactico. So you can see where Wenger was coming from. Instead they should be buying the Martials, Son's etc up and coming cheaper wages talent. That is what they used to do well.

and they still do. the problem is there are more additional clubs in england who just buy up global stars. this scenario didnt exist before. i have no doubt wenger wouldnt have won much had owners like abramovic and mansour existed in 1998.

if wenger bought the likes of cazorla, koscileny, giroud, ramsey etc in 1998, i suspect he wouldve won the title back then too.

unfortunately, to win the title now, you simply need to buy global superstars. theres no "special scouting" that can win you titles when theres 3 teams willing to spend hundreds of millions on the best players in the world.

 

[Neymar]

Yes they have cash, but its no good in the bank.

your opinion. their owners would say "no good winning title after title, if it loses you money every year". and with spenders like utd, city, chelsea and barca,real, psg in europe, there is no doubt that for arsenal to win titles, it would be a loss making operation

 

[glorygloryeze]

hes consistently finished above teams with bigger spends than him imo. far more frequently than vice versa anyway. hes got Ar5ena1 to finish above all of manu, city and Chel53a at some stage or another in recent years

You will gain a bit of credibility back if you can back up this. Show us the higher spending teams that he has 'consistently finished above.' I suspect your second statement also amount to 'once'.

Go on, show us that your love for Wenger is actually backed up with fact (and that you're not just talking bs)

#Popcornready

 

[Neymar]

I don't really care enough about them to go into any in depth analysis, but balancing the books is not one his priorities as I see it. He sticks with average, overpaid players for years just because they came through their youth system. He won't sign anyone unless they're some unknown from France or it's just a necessity. Mertesacker was a panic buy. He loves signing AMs for some reason though. Not recognising obvious flaws in his tactics, such as their porous CM.

ozil:
[ ] average
[ ] overpaid
[ ] came through youth system
[ ] was unknown
[ ] from france


also, are you referring to the obvious flaws in his tactics that get the team with the 4th highest wage bill finishing below 3 teams with higher wages bills and above the teams that spend less on wages? this is whilst he is spending less than 4th place money on transfer fees.

 

[billyiddo]

yes but because he isnt deluded, and understands the game, hes acheiving these results whilst not wasting hundreds of millions.

ive mentioned it before, but someone likes rodgers (or 99% of other managers) would delude themselves into thinking they can get Ar5ena1 challenging by spending extra money every season. and waste money in a futile aim to finish higher than is realistically possible.

look at martin oneill at aston villa for an example of this.

This line of argument is so pathetic it really us, excuse making at it's finest - Arsenal don't need to spend hundreds of millions to challenge, they have a good team and a solid squad, they can offer wages that only a handful in Europe can match, they're a consustent CL side not an upper mid table club like Villa which you compare them to - there are many many options available to them to improve their squad, this is nothing more than misdirection to save admitting they can be doing better than they are.

take our squad at the beginning of 11/12 as an example - we signed Adebayor on loan, Scott Parker for 5m and VdV for 8m, this made us a complete and balanced side with players which complimented one another and the end result was one of the most exciting teams in the league and one which in all likelihood would have mounted a more serious title challenge than Wenger has managed in a decade were it not for Redknapp courting the England job - that's with working with a non CL regular side with a far smaller wage budget.


Arsenal have the quality, they just lack the smart buys which gel the team together.

Wenger and Arsenal have stood still since the league caught up with(and surpassed) his modern approach

 

[Neymar]

You will gain a bit of credibility back if you can back up this. Show us the higher spending teams that he has 'consistently finished above.' I suspect your second statement also amount to 'once'.

Go on, show us that your love for Wenger is actually backed up with fact (and that you're not just talking bs)

#Popcornready

above utd in 14/15
above utd in 13/14
above chelsea in 11/12
Emirates Marketing Project in 09/10
mancity in 08/09

thats pretty consistent imo (relatively). especially when you consider that we have not finished above them at all in the same period

 

[milo]

and they still do. the problem is there are more additional clubs in england who just buy up global stars. this scenario didnt exist before. i have no doubt wenger wouldnt have won much had owners like abramovic and mansour existed in 1998.

if wenger bought the likes of cazorla, koscileny, giroud, ramsey etc in 1998, i suspect he wouldve won the title back then too.

unfortunately, to win the title now, you simply need to buy global superstars. theres no "special scouting" that can win you titles when theres 3 teams willing to spend hundreds of millions on the best players in the world.

You put Henry in this Arsenal side and they would have a good chance of the title this season, put Henry and Viera and they'd be favourites. Neither were world superstars when Arsenal signed them

 

[billyiddo]

above utd in 14/15
above utd in 13/14
above Chel53a in 11/12
Emirates Marketing Project in 09/10
mancity in 08/09

thats pretty consistent imo (relatively). especially when you consider that we have not finished above them at all in the same period

Well why would we? we are operating on a much smaller budget - Arsenal are closer to all of those teams financially than we are to them and despite that we've finished above Chelsea, City and United in that period, contrary to your claim.

United 13/14 - Moyes season?
Chelsea 11/12 - AVB

We finished above them both in those years also...

City in 08-10? Not sure they were in the swing of the Mansour ownership at this point and am pretty sure we also finished above them during this time


Over acheiving

 

[Neymar]

This line of argument is so pathetic it really us, excuse making at it's finest - Ar5ena1 don't need to spend hundreds of millions to challenge, they have a good team and a solid squad, they can offer wages that only a handful in Europe can match, they're a consustent CL side not an upper mid table club like Villa which you compare them to - there are many many options available to them to improve their squad, this is nothing more than misdirection to save admitting they can be doing better than they are.

arsenal do need to spend hundreds of millions. you are thinking they dont because youre imagining best case scenarios for them. ie. they just need 1 striker and 1 dcm. youre right if these players work out instantly. but usually, you need to buy, shevkenko, torres, falcao, crespo, kezman, mutu etc to find the one player (drogba) that works for you. this is the process utd are going through with di maria, falcao, mata, martial. eventually they will realise that the 30m fellaini is the solution

take our squad at the beginning of 11/12 as an example - we signed Adebayor on loan, Scott Parker for 5m and VdV for 8m, this made us a complete and balanced side with players which complimented one another and the end result was one of the most exciting teams in the league and one which in all likelihood would have mounted a more serious title challenge than Wenger has managed in a decade were it not for Redknapp courting the England job - that's with working with a non CL regular side with a far smaller wage budget.

this was as massivle down to luck. just like liverpool, dortmund and atletico in recent seasons. if it was down to deliberate "smart" buys, these clubs should be able to repeat their title challenging seasons year after year. they cant however. because the management team dont know how to repeat the process. - ie. it was luck. long term, these clubs' footballing success always regresses back to reflect their spending levels.

Ar5ena1 have the quality, they just lack the smart buys which gel the team together.

no, they just lack a russian oligarch who needs life insurance

Wenger and Ar5ena1 have stood still since the league caught up with(and surpassed) his modern approach

the league caught up? lol
this line always makes me chuckle

no Emirates Marketing Project and chelsea have caught up. man utd were always bigger. everyone else still has a lot of catching up to do.

 

[Neymar]

You put Henry in this Ar5ena1 side and they would have a good chance of the title this season, put Henry and Viera and they'd be favourites. Neither were world superstars when Ar5ena1 signed them

they wouldnt have henry or vieira.

look how much the "new henry" has been sold for. and hes far less well known than henry was at the time

 

[glorygloryeze]

above utd in 14/15
above utd in 13/14
above Chel53a in 11/12
Emirates Marketing Project in 09/10
mancity in 08/09

thats pretty consistent imo (relatively). especially when you consider that we have not finished above them at all in the same period

Scraping the barrel using City pre-2010, when basically they had won the lottery but unlike Chelski won the lottery when they were really a mid-table outfield (whilst Chelski won it when they were already a top 4/5 team). Also before they did win the lottery we also finished above them. No big deal. Since City have been top 4 certainties every year Arsenal have finished below them every time. Like us. No big deal and nothing to note in this discussion considering where City were (and also the fact that City have bankrolled Arsenal for several players).
We also finished above Chelski in 11/12 and Manure in 13/14. If you're going to laud them for that you'd better rim the butts of Rednapp and Sherwood too.

In the scheme of things this doesn't count as 'consistent' - in the same way that Liverpool coming from 7th position to mount a REAL PL title challenge in 2013/14, finishing above Asenal who again didn't challenge, doesn't count as consistent in your eyes.
Again, showing your pro-Wenger bias.