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Cameron for Cash

Moonlit Knight, I never said that we should all be equal. I said that there should be EQUALITY OF OPPORTUNITY, which is not the same thing thing. I believe that every person in the country should have an equal opportunity to achieve. That is not the same as saying there should be equality in outcomes. You have cornered the market in trying to distort other people's meanings.
 
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to have a bit of a chip on your shoulder regarding education.

Academic education. Not education. Academic education is vastly over rated in our society in my opinion. Having a trade skill or learning from the school of life is far more important.

Things have gotten worse since more and more people go into further education. The graduates think they're better than they are. Those that genuinely don't have the ability to go to uni feel worthless and can't get any sort of jobs. Those that chose not to go to Uni and get a job at an earlier age instead tend to be the cream of the crop (in my industry).

Uni is a necessary part of a countries education, but there is little doubt that when it was elitist (towards intelligence) it was more successful and the country was better for it. Also there are so many university teachers (who do tend to be superior to those of secondary school standard) now that the quality of performace of secondary school teachers is even worse than before (and it was never great to begin with!!).
 
I never said that we should all be equal. I said that there should be EQUALITY OF OPPORTUNITY, which is not the same thing thing. I believe that every person in the country should have an equal opportunity to achieve. That is not the same as saying there should be equality in outcomes. You have cornered the market in trying to distort other people's meanings.

But that will never happen, because life circumstances and intellectual ability are different for every individual. So therefore we are not equal and therefore will never have the same opportunities. It's an impossible dream. People have more opportunities than they realise though. A lot of them are too blind or limited to even see when they have one. It also depends on what you want out of life. EVERYONE has equal opportunities at school for example, and yet we don't perform the same because of peers, outside influences, lack of interest, the way that individual is naturally, attention span etc.
 
Academic education. Not education. Academic education is vastly over rated in our society in my opinion. Having a trade skill or learning from the school of life is far more important.

Things have gotten worse since more and more people go into further education. The graduates think they're better than they are. Those that genuinely don't have the ability to go to uni feel worthless and can't get any sort of jobs. Those that chose not to go to Uni and get a job at an earlier age instead tend to be the cream of the crop (in my industry).

Uni is a necessary part of a countries education, but there is little doubt that when it was elitist (towards intelligence) it was more successful and the country was better for it. Also there are so many university teachers (who do tend to be superior to those of secondary school standard) now that the quality of performace of secondary school teachers is even worse than before (and it was never great to begin with!!).

Can't a person be academically successful and also "learn from the school of life?" Why does it have to be one or the other? Why not both? This is what I mean when I refer to simplistic comments. Not really thought through at all.
 
Can't a person be academically successful and also "learn from the school of life?" Why does it have to be one or the other? Why not both? This is what I mean when I refer to simplistic comments. Not really thought through at all.

Of course they can, and of course I am talking generally. I am hardly going to compose a 500 page presentation to back up my opinions on here am I? And as I stated, further academic studies should be for the intelligent elite. In most cases people don't ever utilise what they learn academically. Or to put it another way.....it's generally a fudging waste of time and money.

But as you are now resorting to insults and belittlement I will take that as victory in this "debate" and leave it as that.
 
Of course they can, and of course I am talking generally. I am hardly going to compose a 500 page presentation to back up my opinions on here am I? And as I stated, further academic studies should be for the intelligent elite. In most cases people don't ever utilise what they learn academically. Or to put it another way.....it's generally a fudging waste of time and money.

But as you are now resorting to insults and belittlement I will take that as victory in this "debate" and leave it as that.


Ha, ha, youre accusing me of insulting you...that's rich! Anyway the victory was mine, as you have clearly conceded. Ha.ha.
 
I'll bet you have. Fair cop. But where are the criticsms of the big end of town? Of the corporate tax evaders and rip off merchants? Where are the criticisms of the corporate polluters and environmental vandals? Where are the criticisms of the asset stippers and employment exporters? No it's much easier to have a go at those at the bottom of the pile, the single mothers and the unemployed, because of course they are all scroungers.
I'm a socialists and am an ardent critic of business, but I could never be accused of basing my political beliefs on prejudice. Some on here revel in it, after all they KNOW that it was a unionist who killed Bambi. BTW the international energy crisis put most of the western world in difficulty in the mid to late seventies, it wasnt just Britain.

I made a comment on what was in front of me mate. Regards to your questions on tax avoidance, environmental negligence and loss of skills... You start the thread and I'll respond, what sort of retort is that? It has nothing to do with anything in this thread (though all are valid conversations, I spend my life remediating brownfield and have personally witnessed a lot of the brick that industry is allowed to get away with, for example).

So, to get back on topic, you think that I am some sort of blue encrusted, elitist buffoon who speaks too much, that much is evident. But here's the catch, I've got socialist and liberal tendancies and more empathy than most lefties put together. The problem is that I recognise what an absolute shower of brick and destructive force Labour governments are and what a bunch of hopelessly naive clowns the Libs are... You wanted sweeping generalisation, there it is for you. I cannot vote for either of those parties as one hasn't a clue and the other hasn't a concsience. So I vote for a party that are out of touch but at least won't lead us to ruin... The best of a bad lot. I actually yearn for a time when people realise that "left", "right" and "centre" are flimflam terms; that you can look after people's needs without creating a nation of proles; that seeking to better yourself financially and wishing to help those worse off than you are not conflicting ideals. This country needs a new party that ignores those lines, but I doubt it will ever happen.

I'm perfectly aware of the seventies, I know that we were in the mire during Heath's term and long before as well and I know that Labour in the later part of the 70s, as the party that should have been able to calm the unions, failed miserably and could very realistically have caused a full scale revolution. I actually don't really have much of a strong feeling for Thatcher, I just take exception at the idiotic comments you hear people make about the Tory government in the 80s. It's very much like listening to Liverpool fans talking about Hillsborough... Here are the facts that both groups should listen to:

1) Yes, the powers on high made mistakes
2) Yes, the situation was directly caused and attributable to the very people that were affected

It's the second point that people gleefully ignore. Despite all of the bad decisions made at Hillsborough and despite the blame laying at the feet of police... The direct root cause was Liverpool fans without tickets.

Despite Thatcher being the hang man of mining and heavy industry in Britain... The direct root cause was the unions asking for terms that were not possible and money that was not available. They were drunk with power and signed industry's death sentence before the 79 election even happened.

Add to that that the majority of people that vehemently rant about Thatcher and the 80s government think that the winter of discontent was a particularly cold Christmas and it makes my tinkle boil that people can be so unread yet shout so loudly. If you want to have a go at that government, talk about the real criminal issue of privitising our utilities and placing the needs of every man, woman and child in this country in the hands of profit driven, foreign interests... That would be a much better starting place.
 
Academic education. Not education. Academic education is vastly over rated in our society in my opinion. Having a trade skill or learning from the school of life is far more important.

Things have gotten worse since more and more people go into further education. The graduates think they're better than they are. Those that genuinely don't have the ability to go to uni feel worthless and can't get any sort of jobs. Those that chose not to go to Uni and get a job at an earlier age instead tend to be the cream of the crop (in my industry).

Uni is a necessary part of a countries education, but there is little doubt that when it was elitist (towards intelligence) it was more successful and the country was better for it. Also there are so many university teachers (who do tend to be superior to those of secondary school standard) now that the quality of performace of secondary school teachers is even worse than before (and it was never great to begin with!!).

first day back on the board since last week (been moving house for 5 days), so sure ive missed a lot of insightful debate and even more bickering!!

not going to trawl back through the posts, so will pick it up here.

have to say i agree with ML in the above.
i do think the labour govt focused too much on ensuring "everyone" could get a degree rather than more degree's more accessible to those with the ability to undertake them
 
first day back on the board since last week (been moving house for 5 days), so sure ive missed a lot of insightful debate and even more bickering!!

not going to trawl back through the posts, so will pick it up here.

have to say i agree with ML in the above.
i do think the labour govt focused too much on ensuring "everyone" could get a degree rather than more degree's more accessible to those with the ability to undertake them

The main point for me is the 50%. What the hell do 50% of school leavers need to go into higher education for? Of course it should be available for people who REALLY want to go to university and have some semblance of a plan. But how many university trained shop assitants do we honestly need? Like you say MB, university should be available to anyone who wants, needs and has the ability to go... Not simply anyone.

What the 50% target did was keep youth out of unemployment and help figures along, whilst ensuring that the next generation got themselves nicely familiar with the concept of debt and borrowing... It's the end of boom and bust after all, take all you need kids!... Well, unless you're in Scotland, in which case no need, hey Gordon.

fudge all the soft degrees, I want to see a government that is fully committed to getting Britain back on track with the sciences and engineering. I've said it on here before, but I read the other day that England is about to have the biggest wind farm in the world built off the south coast... and the beneficieries of this will be a Dutch power firm and most likely Danish turbine manufacturers... Where the hell is the subsidy for starting up turbine manufacturing in the UK?

Take all those horrible, dirty old sites up in the north east, clean them up and create a new industry up there, I'm telling you. The Cote d'Opale region of France is spending millions doing just this. Creating "environmental" courses within the colleges, creating a skill base for manufacturing, importing green tech from around the world to resell on the continent, offering subsidies for any green tech that wants to set up in the province... And it is starting to create jobs. Not too disimilar to Japan's plan post WWII I guess, and it didn't do them any harm now did it.

All a bit off topic, but it goes back to the point, what do thousands upon thousands of useless degrees and half the population of young adults now sensitised to manual jobs that are "below" them do for the country?

Bah!
 
totally agree with Wookie above

i do think that we have now created an workforce of "graduates" and as a result need to make huge ammendments to our education system so we dont end up a huge gap between "graduates" and "non graduates" going forward when in reality there is little difference in ability between many from both areas, but there is a difference in the words BA(Hons) which employers hold in very high esteem
(part of the reason at 29 i have decided it is essential i get a degree having missed out a lot of opporunities due to a lack of degree, not a lack of experience or ability)

i wouls like to see an education structure where education is compulsory to 18. GCSE (or equiv) to 16 then A-Levels or VQ through to 18, resulting in (theoricially at least) a workforce with the general basis GCSE's give (Maths, English etc and the chance to try and discover what you actually want to do) and then either an academic route (ALevels) or vocational route.

Thus creating 18 years old that are educated or skilled and ready for work at 18 - at which point they can choice whether to further said skills at Uni or go into the workforce with a good set of skills and realistice expectations

Combine this with a massive promotion of said structure to employers and you should get somewhere near what things used to be like - graduates going into mid levels roles as they have higher levels of academic education and VQ people "starting at the bottom" and gaining the core of their knowledge through working. Both sets of worker are just as valuable as eachother and bring very different thigns to the table for an employer.

and by making degrees available (but not essential) for everyone with the ability, we also dont disadvantage the new workforce coming through (f knows where it leaves the current lot however wit their "pointless degrees" knocking around)

maybe add an option for anyone that wants to leave school at 16 to be able to on the grounds that they are offered an apprenticeship

right, im off to do some work on my, cough, not pointless degree (Philosophy, Politics and Economics)
 
This sums it up for me:

Perhaps you expected a government that would make us part of Europe but not ruled by Europe? Maybe you were looking forward to the promised referendum on membership? If so then I’m afraid you were somewhat misled. In the last two years the conservatives have continued to adopt every EU regulation, recommendation and requirement offered. OK. I know there was one carefully stage managed theatrical ‘veto’ last year, but face it, that didn’t actually do anything. On the other hand the EU TEN-T transport initiative rolls on with its requirement for high speed rail 2 while the EU regional plans continue unabated having been hidden under the guise of Local Authority Leaders Boards. Every travel movement and use of energy is taxed in the name of EU carbon limits. All trading laws are mandated by the EU. Be honest with yourself - everything you thought might be resisted by the Conservatives has instead been welcomed by this government, even down to minor details like VAT on pasties.

Maybe you knew and accepted that public finances would be problematic? Nobody expected it would be a picnic after spendthrift snot-gobbler Brown wrecked the piggy bank, sold all the family silver and maxed out every credit card. Yet I’m sure you hoped that the government might do as it promised and reduce the size and cost of the state. Sorry, you were misled again, taxes have gone up, costs have gone up, duties have gone up - and so has government spending. Despite cuts in many important services and areas that we value and need the government continue to haemorrhage money as loans, gifts and subsidies to banks, to corporates, to the EU, and on themselves, their ego-projects and their cronies.

In view of the financial situation perhaps you hoped the government would follow the age-old adage that ‘charity begins at home’ and prioritise people in this country, possibly the less well off who are now spending, or have already spent their working lives, being responsible and valuable members of society. Sorry, this government doesn’t think like that. Better to give it to India for their space program or spend it on climate change propaganda programs in Africa. The sorts of so-called charity that I suspect most of us would dismiss as worthless self ego massaging.

It’s possible you had some expectations that a shiny new Conservative government in 2010 would cut down on the nannying and authoritarian control freakery of their predecessor, maybe even unwind some controls as promised, like the hunting ban? Once again, it hasn’t happened has it? They still throw truckloads of money at quangoes and fake charities like ASH, Alcohol Concern, Weight Concern, Stonewall and uncountable numbers of organisations concerned with Global warming fear-mongering. All these orgaisations then spend most of it on public propaganda and government lobbying to control your freedoms to live your life as you wish. That’s not charity!

To add insult to injury this government, more than any previous one, is very keen to take legal and regulatory action to not just suggest, or even nudge, but force you to behave as they deem correct. Tobacco taxes and bans, Alcohol pricing, salt control, sugar content control, NHS overweight treatment bans, plans to prohibit your desired home improvements unless you carry out their mandated ones, avoiding wearing a cross necklace. There are armies of top salaried people, forests worth of paper, and more regulation by the day to force you to behave and think in approved ways. How much more do you want?

But being Conservatives they would at least reduce red tape and give business a chance. Well, even that hasn’t worked very well. They have removed a few completely irrelevant statutes, one ancient one about dog walking caught my eye, that affected nobody, while at the same time loading business with rafts of new regulations on pensions, workers rights, transport management, carbon footprints and the like. Last year (during 2011) the coalition enacted 4,116 pieces of legislation (and here) all designed to control your life or someone’s business. Is that what you expected from Conservatism?

At least the Conservatives believed in personal liberty and would roll back the state intrusion and spying into our lives. After all they objected to Labour’s ID card scheme, DNA database and original Internet scrutiny scheme so could surely be trusted on this issue. Well, that doesn’t look so good either. They were one of the first EU members to sign up to ACTA, a law that even Estonia and Slovakia objected to. (Remember ACTA, that is the internet spying arrangement to prevent piracy but now somewhat overshadowed by their plans to record every single aspect of your online activity anyhow). They also promised to reduce the 266 powers under which people could legally break into your house, that didn’t really work out as hoped either. As for ID cards we now have a system where anyone looking under25 needs ID to gain their rights as an adult, meanwhile the soon to be introduced new mandatory EU compatible picture driving licence looks just like an ID card – what a surprise. The ID card is dead, long live the ID card!

Thank goodness the Conservatives have been up to scratch on transparency. Apart that is from the secret children’s courts ripping families apart with dodgy expert witnesses and no outside scrutiny (10,000 children removed in the past year) and the little matter of plans to hold private courts for any issues where there is security sensitivity. Some information is apparently so dangerous that the accused won’t even be told what they are accused of, will not be allowed to speak to a lawyer and nobody will be told they have been arrested. That doesn’t sound like justice to me I’m afraid, nor even the actions of a democratic government. Then there is the quiet reintroduction of MPs on-the-nod expenses, the desire to emasculate the Freedom of Information rules. It’s all becoming very depressing for the committed Conservative voter.

We have an energy policy driven by dodgy science that makes our energy security dependent on ridiculously expensive, unreliable, countryside destroying windmills, more windmills in the sea than any other country but which are already falling downthrough faulty design, and nuclear firms who have given up on the job of building new nuclear stations. Even if you you believe the AGW scam it’s still a bit of a mess isn’t it? No wonder they are in a panic and trying to force everyone’s power usage down, there won’t be enough!

I could go on all day with different policy areas but it doesn’t matter where you look it gets no better. We still have Labour’s idea of law and order that sees victims arrested and perpetrators given ‘community’ punishments that they ignore and then re-offend. We now have aircraft carriers with no planes to defend our country. We have terrorists we can’t kick out. We have teenagers with no moral compass or basic skills for the job market. Our policemen are so demoralised by the justice system, cutbacks and poor management that even the decent ones can’t do a decent job.

If you are voting in the next round of elections PLEASE PLEASE think hard about where you place your cross. The Conservative party is not your friend, they are the admin department of the EU and Bankers elitist gravy train movement, and they are not even good at that. If you voted for them before please don't do it again!

Labour is useless and equally dangerous. Once they had a real role as supporters of the then downtrodden working man, but they sold out to Marxist progressives years back and now are only interested in spending our money buying votes so they can control us better. The lib Dems are mostly principle free and will say and promise anything to get your support.

If there is any viable alternative candidate to the main parties then vote for them! There are a few free thinking politicians, particularly in local elections, but don’t vote for a main party or one of their stooges. UKIP look to be the obvious protest vote so I would go there, but in truth it doesn’t matter who fills Westminster as long as it isn’t those arrogant, elitist, lying, self-serving scum who are in control now. Even the Monster Raving Loonies have more integrity and honesty, and probably more common sense and basic intelligence, than the current incumbents.

It is desperately important to puncture the arrogance, stupidity and self entitlement of the established political parties, don't vote for any of them!

http://grumpologist.blogspot.co.uk/
 
The grumpologist has a few points, but gleefully overlooks the fact that we have a coalition and largely hamstrung government. So instead of having a government that gets the bits you thought they would wrong, but gets on with enoforcing the main policies. They are instead getting pretty much everything wrong.
 
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