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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

Mikey10 said:
Reform were on record as saying they could turn Kent Council around once in charge (Farage initially said they would show there what they could do nationally) - they haven’t. They’ve been forced to cede to economic reality, now that they’ve realised that millions aren’t being ‘wasted’ on green and DEI initiatives.

And they’ve spent a lot of their time in-fighting.

In short, their governance there has been a s hitshow.

In other news on the self-styled man of the people…

www.theguardian.com

Labour challenges Farage over cost of private jet trip to Maldives

Anna Turley questions revised £25,000 figure for failed attempt to reach Chagos Islands on jet linked to billionaire
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
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Councils are two-layered. The elected councillors sit above an unelected executive management structure. The elected officials can only set broad principles but aren't actually really running the show. I think Reform are finding out the hard way what the likes of Cummings found out: that once in power you can change stuff quickly. Nope.

Even being elected to national government only puts you at the head of what has become known as "the blob": a mass of civil service departments and arms-length bodies such as the NHS. I think Reform need to use their experience in local government to prepare properly for national government. Tony Blair's government and the structures created to implement the Maastrict Treaty created most of the "blob" and the entire point was to create a centralised system that guarantees uniformity of approach at a continental level.

While Brexit happened at a technical level, it has never really happened at a practical level. Local government is a key failure of the EU concept as the focus is on attaining unity at a state to state level. But it sacrifices the bespoke local solution. We have gone a bit of the way to implementing effective devolution. I think the job Andy Burnham has done in Manchester is a case study in effective lobbying of central government for funding and effective management of local authority. And in cross-party working as you are talking about a Labour administration working with Conservative governments to regenerate and connect a metropolitan area.
 
Silly McSilly Face said:
Councils are two-layered. The elected councillors sit above an unelected executive management structure. The elected officials can only set broad principles but aren't actually really running the show. I think Reform are finding out the hard way what the likes of Cummings found out: that once in power you can change stuff quickly. Nope.

Even being elected to national government only puts you at the head of what has become known as "the blob": a mass of civil service departments and arms-length bodies such as the NHS. I think Reform need to use their experience in local government to prepare properly for national government. Tony Blair's government and the structures created to implement the Maastrict Treaty created most of the "blob" and the entire point was to create a centralised system that guarantees uniformity of approach at a continental level.

While Brexit happened at a technical level, it has never really happened at a practical level. Local government is a key failure of the EU concept as the focus is on attaining unity at a state to state level. But it sacrifices the bespoke local solution. We have gone a bit of the way to implementing effective devolution. I think the job Andy Burnham has done in Manchester is a case study in effective lobbying of central government for funding and effective management of local authority. And in cross-party working as you are talking about a Labour administration working with Conservative governments to regenerate and connect a metropolitan area.
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Yes, Minister and Yes, Prime Minister, let alone a knowledge of history, would suggest the the right-wing bogeyman of 'the blob' existed well before any EU intervention and was created to manage a global empire through stability no matter who sat in Downing Street. The right don't like it because it generally follows the law of the land and isn't able to knee-jerk respond to the Daily Heil headlines.

Plenty of successful bespoke local level administrations throughout Europe. Burnham could have done what he has done if we had been still in the EU. This idea that the EU wants conformity from top to bottom is rubbish and the idea that Brexit has failed because of local implication is another sunny uplands delusion of what a Utopia it would have been if only it had been delivered properly. It was a failed concept from the start because it made no economic, geographic or cultural sense.

Ironically, the only way it could have worked was to rip up the whole national and local management system and install a one size fits all draconian system that had no local nuance and no devolution. apparently the thing we wanted to be away from in Europe but would have been fine at home as long as the 'right' people were in control ......
 
Lost Mango said:
Yes, Minister and Yes, Prime Minister, let alone a knowledge of history, would suggest the the right-wing bogeyman of 'the blob' existed well before any EU intervention and was created to manage a global empire through stability no matter who sat in Downing Street. The right don't like it because it generally follows the law of the land and isn't able to knee-jerk respond to the Daily Heil headlines.

Plenty of successful bespoke local level administrations throughout Europe. Burnham could have done what he has done if we had been still in the EU. This idea that the EU wants conformity from top to bottom is rubbish and the idea that Brexit has failed because of local implication is another sunny uplands delusion of what a Utopia it would have been if only it had been delivered properly. It was a failed concept from the start because it made no economic, geographic or cultural sense.

Ironically, the only way it could have worked was to rip up the whole national and local management system and install a one size fits all draconian system that had no local nuance and no devolution. apparently the thing we wanted to be away from in Europe but would have been fine at home as long as the 'right' people were in control ......
Click to expand...

I love how the excuses for Reform being unable to make any changes is being prepped now........"no one ever made any positive change ever"

Alright then, lets just give up
 
Lost Mango said:
Yes, Minister and Yes, Prime Minister, let alone a knowledge of history, would suggest the the right-wing bogeyman of 'the blob' existed well before any EU intervention and was created to manage a global empire through stability no matter who sat in Downing Street. The right don't like it because it generally follows the law of the land and isn't able to knee-jerk respond to the Daily Heil headlines.

Plenty of successful bespoke local level administrations throughout Europe. Burnham could have done what he has done if we had been still in the EU. This idea that the EU wants conformity from top to bottom is rubbish and the idea that Brexit has failed because of local implication is another sunny uplands delusion of what a Utopia it would have been if only it had been delivered properly. It was a failed concept from the start because it made no economic, geographic or cultural sense.

Ironically, the only way it could have worked was to rip up the whole national and local management system and install a one size fits all draconian system that had no local nuance and no devolution. apparently the thing we wanted to be away from in Europe but would have been fine at home as long as the 'right' people were in control ......
Click to expand...
Local government IS changing fundamentally here in Surrey. We are splitting in two and binning off county and borough councils.

You don’t get all the changes overnight. Brexit was very simply about leaving the EU. Your arrogant elites didn’t consider they would lose.
 
johnola said:
Local government IS changing fundamentally here in Surrey. We are splitting in two and binning off county and borough councils.

You don’t get all the changes overnight. Brexit was very simply about leaving the EU. Your arrogant elites didn’t consider they would lose.
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You don't think arrogant elites are behind Brexit.. You think it's the other way round. Wow.

And remain was also arrogant elites for a large part too. However the idea it was the people vs the elite is a load of cods by any measure
 
LutonSpurs said:
You don't think arrogant elites are behind Brexit.. You think it's the other way round. Wow.

And remain was also arrogant elites for a large part too. However the idea it was the people vs the elite is a load of cods by any measure
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How have you turned it all around ? Double wow.

Brexit was an individual choice there were no leaders worth speaking of.

The array of remain voices included All the main parties, the government, All of Europe, Obama almost all the media.

The remainer narrative was always preposterous.
 
johnola said:
Local government IS changing fundamentally here in Surrey. We are splitting in two and binning off county and borough councils.

You don’t get all the changes overnight. Brexit was very simply about leaving the EU. Your arrogant elites didn’t consider they would lose.
Click to expand...

What is 'fundamentally' different about this re-organisation? We have seen attempts to stream-line and simplify services elsewhere before by combining local authorities. Bits work, bits don't. And there will still be an over-arching Surrey wide oversight level structure. Genuinely interested, as I don't live in Surrey so haven't followed the consultation or literature, what will be different.

p.s. 'my' arrogant elites????
 
johnola said:
How have you turned it all around ? Double wow.

Brexit was an individual choice there were no leaders worth speaking of.

The array of remain voices included All the main parties, the government, All of Europe, Obama almost all the media.

The remainer narrative was always preposterous.
Click to expand...

The array of leave voices included All the main parties, parts of the government, parts of Europe, Russia, Trump and a large part of the media.

The leave narrative has been shown to be equally preposterous.
 
johnola said:
How have you turned it all around ? Double wow.

Brexit was an individual choice there were no leaders worth speaking of.

The array of remain voices included All the main parties, the government, All of Europe, Obama almost all the media.

The remainer narrative was always preposterous.
Click to expand...

This sentence is part of a mass cognitive dissonance amongst leavers. It is a patently false statement. If remain had leaders, by the same standard, leave did.
 
LutonSpurs said:
This sentence is part of a mass cognitive dissonance amongst leavers. It is a patently false statement. If remain had leaders, by the same standard, leave did.
Click to expand...
AI Overview



The official "Vote Leave" campaign for the 2016 UK EU referendum was led by prominent Conservatives
Boris Johnson and Michael Gove, alongside Labour’s Gisela Stuart, who chaired the campaign. Key strategists included Dominic Cummings (Campaign Director) and Matthew Elliott.

Key Leaders and Figures:
  • Boris Johnson: Former London Mayor, key figurehead.
  • Michael Gove: Co-convenor of the campaign committee.
  • Gisela Stuart: Chair of Vote Leave.
  • Dominic Cummings: Campaign Director.
  • Matthew Elliott: Chief Executive.
  • Cabinet Members: Iain Duncan Smith, Theresa Villiers, Chris Grayling, and John Whittingdale.
  • Business/Others: Peter Cruddas, John Mills, and former Chancellor Nigel Lawson.
Other Prominent Leave Campaigns:
  • Nigel Farage: Leader of UKIP, who led the separate "Grassroots Out" (GO) campaign, which was more focused on immigration.
  • Left Leave: Led by figures like Robert Griffiths.

all just salt of the earth common people, not elite, not establishment, just ordinary voices amongst all those ordinary voices .........
 
Lost Mango said:
AI Overview



The official "Vote Leave" campaign for the 2016 UK EU referendum was led by prominent Conservatives
Boris Johnson and Michael Gove, alongside Labour’s Gisela Stuart, who chaired the campaign. Key strategists included Dominic Cummings (Campaign Director) and Matthew Elliott.

Key Leaders and Figures:
  • Boris Johnson: Former London Mayor, key figurehead.
  • Michael Gove: Co-convenor of the campaign committee.
  • Gisela Stuart: Chair of Vote Leave.
  • Dominic Cummings: Campaign Director.
  • Matthew Elliott: Chief Executive.
  • Cabinet Members: Iain Duncan Smith, Theresa Villiers, Chris Grayling, and John Whittingdale.
  • Business/Others: Peter Cruddas, John Mills, and former Chancellor Nigel Lawson.
Other Prominent Leave Campaigns:
  • Nigel Farage: Leader of UKIP, who led the separate "Grassroots Out" (GO) campaign, which was more focused on immigration.
  • Left Leave: Led by figures like Robert Griffiths.

all just salt of the earth common people, not elite, not establishment, just ordinary voices amongst all those ordinary voices .........
Click to expand...
Zero elite in that list
 
Lost Mango said:
AI Overview



The official "Vote Leave" campaign for the 2016 UK EU referendum was led by prominent Conservatives
Boris Johnson and Michael Gove, alongside Labour’s Gisela Stuart, who chaired the campaign. Key strategists included Dominic Cummings (Campaign Director) and Matthew Elliott.

Key Leaders and Figures:
  • Boris Johnson: Former London Mayor, key figurehead.
  • Michael Gove: Co-convenor of the campaign committee.
  • Gisela Stuart: Chair of Vote Leave.
  • Dominic Cummings: Campaign Director.
  • Matthew Elliott: Chief Executive.
  • Cabinet Members: Iain Duncan Smith, Theresa Villiers, Chris Grayling, and John Whittingdale.
  • Business/Others: Peter Cruddas, John Mills, and former Chancellor Nigel Lawson.
Other Prominent Leave Campaigns:
  • Nigel Farage: Leader of UKIP, who led the separate "Grassroots Out" (GO) campaign, which was more focused on immigration.
  • Left Leave: Led by figures like Robert Griffiths.

all just salt of the earth common people, not elite, not establishment, just ordinary voices amongst all those ordinary voices .........
Click to expand...

Plenty of Eton commoners
 
Lost Mango said:
What is 'fundamentally' different about this re-organisation? We have seen attempts to stream-line and simplify services elsewhere before by combining local authorities. Bits work, bits don't. And there will still be an over-arching Surrey wide oversight level structure. Genuinely interested, as I don't live in Surrey so haven't followed the consultation or literature, what will be different.

p.s. 'my' arrogant elites????
Click to expand...
Is it not just LGR going on in Surrey, like it's going on everywhere?
 
Lost Mango said:
Yes, Minister and Yes, Prime Minister, let alone a knowledge of history, would suggest the the right-wing bogeyman of 'the blob' existed well before any EU intervention and was created to manage a global empire through stability no matter who sat in Downing Street. The right don't like it because it generally follows the law of the land and isn't able to knee-jerk respond to the Daily Heil headlines.

Plenty of successful bespoke local level administrations throughout Europe. Burnham could have done what he has done if we had been still in the EU. This idea that the EU wants conformity from top to bottom is rubbish and the idea that Brexit has failed because of local implication is another sunny uplands delusion of what a Utopia it would have been if only it had been delivered properly. It was a failed concept from the start because it made no economic, geographic or cultural sense.

Ironically, the only way it could have worked was to rip up the whole national and local management system and install a one size fits all draconian system that had no local nuance and no devolution. apparently the thing we wanted to be away from in Europe but would have been fine at home as long as the 'right' people were in control ......
Click to expand...
The civil service existed well before the EU and Blair, but the complete inability to effect change via elections did not.

Nobody is blaming anything for Brexit failing as Brexit hasn't "failed". It has suceeded by its very definition: we have left the EU and are operating as a fully autonomous state with the buk stopping with elected officials and civil srrvants in this country.

It is now in our gift to effect change, but change is and will be painfully slow. You can't unravel 50 years of integration in a few years. Most of our major economic laws are still onshored EU legislation (and ironically given the "closer EU ties" rhetoric in public it is actually only this administration that have set about creating SIs to convert onshored legislative thresholds from euros to £s. Which naturally creates divergence that didn't exist before. So we are still under Labour drifting further away from the EU bit by bit, Parliamentary amendment SI by Parliamentary SI.

True devolution cannot work within the EU because the free market by necessity requires conformity.
 
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