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What was the trigger in our downward trend?

SissokoWasGood (BoL) said:
And they did that. It was a monumental achievement. And I think it is genuinely still under appreciated how big an achievement it was. To not only do it, but to still
Thomas Frank in isolation is not a bad manager. But to appoint someone so uninspiring, as a communicator and as a manager with that style of football, after what the players had before, I think was one of the dumbest decisions a football club has ever made. It is dumb because it’s a symptom of what we have all always known, that our squad is a Frakensteinien mess built for multiple different managers and sporting directors. But also because he was so blatantly uninspiring compared to the last manager. And was therefore unable to create anything close to the unity we had previously benefitted from. He had no ideas to get behind. He was not a good motivator. He was careful, safe and risk averse. And our squad did not buy in.
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He was though one of the most sought after and well talked about managers in the PL, he finished 9th with Brentford so the idea is and in theory I get it, that he could replicate it here but with supposedly better players. Players will have to play for a multitude of managers in their life and styles, if they drop their levels every time they comes across a manager they don't enjoy they are unlikely to have much of a career, good players should transcend difficult times IMO. In hindsight Frank was the wrong choice, but we can say that after, I don't agree 1 bit that it was dreadful at the time, again I am sure many who are claiming it said it was very decent at the time.

The issues that have put us in this situation is massively down to the constant reduction of quality in player YOY (Kane to nothing, Son to nothing) and the injuries. We are now 3 managers deep in 2 season and the constant has been the results, the players and the injuries, I don't buy its just bad managers although realise they have not helped.

You constantly neglect joined up thinking when putting together a squad and you don't aim for the replacements of similar quality then you are going to constantly slide down the league, not least because so called smaller clubs are doing it better than we have.

So in summary, yeh managers have contributed to this mess, but there is a massive issue here with the players and the injuries we have had over the last 3 seasons
 
MartyFunkhouser said:
He was though one of the most sought after and well talked about managers in the PL, he finished 9th with Brentford so the idea is and in theory I get it, that he could replicate it here but with supposedly better players. Players will have to play for a multitude of managers in their life and styles, if they drop their levels every time they comes across a manager they don't enjoy they are unlikely to have much of a career, good players should transcend difficult times IMO. In hindsight Frank was the wrong choice, but we can say that after, I don't agree 1 bit that it was dreadful at the time, again I am sure many who are claiming it said it was very decent at the time.

The issues that have put us in this situation is massively down to the constant reduction of quality in player YOY (Kane to nothing, Son to nothing) and the injuries. We are now 3 managers deep in 2 season and the constant has been the results, the players and the injuries, I don't buy its just bad managers although realise they have not helped.

You constantly neglect joined up thinking when putting together a squad and you don't aim for the replacements of similar quality then you are going to constantly slide down the league, not least because so called smaller clubs are doing it better than we have.

So in summary, yeh managers have contributed to this mess, but there is a massive issue here with the players and the injuries we have had over the last 3 seasons
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You’ve cut out the rest of my admittedly extremely long post where I think I go in more to what to what you are getting at.

Anyway you slice it, poor squad quality is not the reason we are 1 point off relegation with 7 games left. It just isn’t, it is not that bad. I think what explains it is something deeper.

And I think it is not Frank in isolation, as I try to say, but Frank coming after Ange. And not just coming after Ange, but coming after the season they had, where they walked through fire and came out the other side as champions. Where it took extraordinary belief in the idea, in each other, in their leaders, and the club. It was a foundation that kept everyone together.

Frank had his chance to create his own foundations, or to build off of what became before. He failed completely. He wasn’t up to it. He could not maintain the unity that was built in for him, and his own project failed to inspire the players. And in some ways I don’t blame them. We remove the ultimate risk taker who demands bravery and give them the ultimate percentage player. Like it or not, the players bought into the risk taker.

In the same way Forest are suffering from letting Nuno go when he was a big reason for their foundations being what they were, I think we’re suffering the same. It is not player quality. It is unity, togerherness, leadership, confidence. It is the intangible things that make a team a team. And we just don’t have any of them right now.
 
SissokoWasGood (BoL) said:
Frank had his chance to create his own foundations, or to build off of what became before. He failed completely. He wasn’t up to it. He could not maintain the unity that was built in for him, and his own project failed to inspire the players. And in some ways I don’t blame them. We remove the ultimate risk taker who demands bravery and give them the ultimate percentage player. Like it or not, the players bought into the risk taker.
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I am cutting these down to get to points I disagree with, not trying to be tricky BTW.

On this point they may well have but they were also letting Ange down even buying into it, we had an injury crisis at points, not to the levels this season, we put out several strong sides and the same players who let Frank down let Ange down in the league, badly.
 
For me the catalyst was not rebuilding after the CL final. That team had reached the end of its cycle. Be it with Poch, or another manager, we had to start rebuilding then. Instead we hired "win now" managers in Jose and Conte to eek out every last drop of that squad. I can see how tempting that was, given the pressure to finally win a trophy, but ultimately it was the wrong decision.
 
alekaras said:
For me the catalyst was not rebuilding after the CL final. That team had reached the end of its cycle. Be it with Poch, or another manager, we had to start rebuilding then. Instead we hired "win now" managers in Jose and Conte to eek out every last drop of that squad. I can see how tempting that was, given the pressure to finally win a trophy, but ultimately it was the wrong decision.
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I think it was def a factor, but I think we still had abit about us since then, Conte season we made the CL we were superb, I would suggest not fully backing him was an issue closer to now than Poch time. I think momentum to now has been allowed to build up.

For me its been compounded by the Lewis family seemingly not being able to make any decisions and or allowing Vinai to make decisions, for better or worse, we are in a cluster Flux
 
alekaras said:
For me the catalyst was not rebuilding after the CL final. That team had reached the end of its cycle. Be it with Poch, or another manager, we had to start rebuilding then. Instead we hired "win now" managers in Jose and Conte to eek out every last drop of that squad. I can see how tempting that was, given the pressure to finally win a trophy, but ultimately it was the wrong decision.
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Agreed, and even it can be argued that Poch eeked out every last bit from that squad to even make the CL final. What was then needed was a refresh. Not to blame Poch for going as far as he could go and expecting Jose to work further miracles. I do wonder whether the squad, beyond Kane, ever fully ‘bought in’ to Jose beyond the early days of doing something a bit different again.

This whole reaching for the short term wins I think is a big part of the overall decline. Ironically they then get a short term trophy win and then set up with a ‘long term’ guy, and planned to show him way more patience than he deserved. It’s like every chance they get to make the right decision, they somehow get the timing so completely off.
 
alekaras said:
For me the catalyst was not rebuilding after the CL final. That team had reached the end of its cycle. Be it with Poch, or another manager, we had to start rebuilding then. Instead we hired "win now" managers in Jose and Conte to eek out every last drop of that squad. I can see how tempting that was, given the pressure to finally win a trophy, but ultimately it was the wrong decision.
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What if the trophy managers were to placate Kane? How many would have stomached selling Kane for a painful rebuild?
 
fernadez said:
He was the one who wanted them both to stay.

And I see why he would but other players would be happy for them to go.
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Yeah…in some ways it baffles me that our players wouldn’t have the self reflection to say ‘maybe if Harry Kane, undoubtedly our best player with the highest standards likes these managers, maybe we should too’. At the same time, chasing after a short term boost to keep Kane happy while not actually legitimately trying to back these types of managers with the tools they would expect to challenge for the main titles…it would again be shocking decision making.
 
For me the downhill trend started with the stadium. It’s obvious we needed it and the potential to grow the club off the back of it was needed but:

* Owners not willing or able to invest meant the sacrifice was on the playing squad.
* We peaked CL final year but due to the lack of investment the players were generally not top tier, we also left it so we were bulk buying rather then 1-2 quality players.
* Manager direction - I don’t get the argument that Mou/Conte/Ange/Frank etc were bad managers, they are not, but they are victims of the lack of consistent strategic direction of the club. Replacing the first team/squad every 2 years for a new manager against meant any funds were diluted causing quality to drop.
* Along the same lines as above - but the different styles meant always changing ideas (High line/low block/counter attack/whatever all out attack Ange was) meant we are always in transition seasons.
* Poor scouting - Even with all the above, the last few seasons we have spent enough to change the direction, or at least avoid bottom of the table, yet whoever looked at the players we brought in and thought they were right needs their head checking. Yes gambling on the odd young player is important, like Bergvall etc but you still need some quality/marquee style player and our wage structure prohibits this.
* Finally - Luck pure and simple, all teams need some no matter how good and our injuries have been horrendous and foolish to ignore that. Losing all creative players turns us into an old school Wimbledon, with long ball and hope being our only real strategy. We have always been an unlucky club, from Lasagnegate through to being the only club to get top 4 and still miss out on CL, maybe this time it truly has hit overdrive.

I do want to call out our fans as well, the support for the team was needed months ago not just the last few games and the team has been poorly supported for the last few years irrespective how bad we have been. For those of us who do remember nearly getting relegated in the 90s and needing Klinsmann to come back the support was always there still, these days it’s pin drop then boo!!
 
SissokoWasGood (BoL) said:
Yeah…in some ways it baffles me that our players wouldn’t have the self reflection to say ‘maybe if Harry Kane, undoubtedly our best player with the highest standards likes these managers, maybe we should too’. At the same time, chasing after a short term boost to keep Kane happy while not actually legitimately trying to back these types of managers with the tools they would expect to challenge for the main titles…it would again be shocking decision making.
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It would be a very Daniel Levy thing to do.
 
Bishop said:
It would be a very Daniel Levy thing to do.
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Yeah. It’s one of those things where like if you squint you can see the theory of it, like so many of the decisions that have been made since 2019, but it just falls apart in practice. Like, I totally get the idea that if you keep Kane happy, he’ll perform, he’ll probably win us games etc. But what happens when those managers get fed up? What happens when Kane decides that he rest of the squad isn’t up to his standard and decides to go anyway?

Everything since 2019 has been done in desperation it seems like. Looking for the easy answer, rather than creating something unique to Spurs, that works for Spurs. And building around that. And the ironically it seems like that is exactly what they were trying to do with the Frank appointment, eg no player power, no over rotating on a short term sugar rush of a trophy, but investing long term in someone that has proven to do well over a longer time period. And then that didn't work! Good in theory but not understanding the nuances of the situation.
 
MartyFunkhouser said:
He was though one of the most sought after and well talked about managers in the PL, he finished 9th with Brentford so the idea is and in theory I get it, that he could replicate it here but with supposedly better players. Players will have to play for a multitude of managers in their life and styles, if they drop their levels every time they comes across a manager they don't enjoy they are unlikely to have much of a career, good players should transcend difficult times IMO. In hindsight Frank was the wrong choice, but we can say that after, I don't agree 1 bit that it was dreadful at the time, again I am sure many who are claiming it said it was very decent at the time.

The issues that have put us in this situation is massively down to the constant reduction of quality in player YOY (Kane to nothing, Son to nothing) and the injuries. We are now 3 managers deep in 2 season and the constant has been the results, the players and the injuries, I don't buy its just bad managers although realise they have not helped.

You constantly neglect joined up thinking when putting together a squad and you don't aim for the replacements of similar quality then you are going to constantly slide down the league, not least because so called smaller clubs are doing it better than we have.

So in summary, yeh managers have contributed to this mess, but there is a massive issue here with the players and the injuries we have had over the last 3 seasons
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He earned the opportunity
But what worried me greatly was his early doors comments about interviews with Chelsea and United… neither club offered him the job
 
MartyFunkhouser said:
He was though one of the most sought after and well talked about managers in the PL, he finished 9th with Brentford so the idea is and in theory I get it, that he could replicate it here but with supposedly better players. Players will have to play for a multitude of managers in their life and styles, if they drop their levels every time they comes across a manager they don't enjoy they are unlikely to have much of a career, good players should transcend difficult times IMO. In hindsight Frank was the wrong choice, but we can say that after, I don't agree 1 bit that it was dreadful at the time, again I am sure many who are claiming it said it was very decent at the time.

The issues that have put us in this situation is massively down to the constant reduction of quality in player YOY (Kane to nothing, Son to nothing) and the injuries. We are now 3 managers deep in 2 season and the constant has been the results, the players and the injuries, I don't buy its just bad managers although realise they have not helped.

You constantly neglect joined up thinking when putting together a squad and you don't aim for the replacements of similar quality then you are going to constantly slide down the league, not least because so called smaller clubs are doing it better than we have.

So in summary, yeh managers have contributed to this mess, but there is a massive issue here with the players and the injuries we have had over the last 3 seasons
Click to expand...

Just wanted to come back on this to say I agree wit your point that good players should be able to play for different styles and different managers.

In an ideal world, that would happen. But I think Tottenham as a club is in this weird position of aspiring to challenge for the biggest titles, but not quite attracting the very best players to do it. So we end up trying to strike it lucky with those that are on the cusp.

And I think this shows that the players are a really important constituency that you need onside when creating the foundations to truly challenge. And I think it’s especially important for a club like ours where we can’t override a lack of culture with the most money.

So in an ideal world our players would adapt well, but it just hasn’t happened like that. I think our players more than any other need an extra reason to believe in Spurs as the place for them. Because they’re probably accepting less money. They’re needing to believe in the long term direction of the club as a place where they can improve to reach a truly elite level. And if they don’t see it, the players we attract to try and reach the top level are just about good enough, with just a high enough opinion of themselves, that they know they can do better.

So I think we need a culture, a big idea, a way of doing things that they buy into. We can’t just instil one from above and brute force it, because the players need to genuinely believe in it. They have too much leverage in the balance, and I don’t think we gave this squad enough of a reason to believe in the club. In fact we’ve started offering more money, so we’re in this transition phase of having mercenary players who aren’t quite at the very top level, but not so full of them that their sheer quality wins out ahead of anything else.

Until we settle on an idea of what we actually want to be, and it’s something that players, fans, boardroom and coaching staff all genuinely believe in and buy into, then I think we’re going to struggle.
 
SissokoWasGood (BoL) said:
Just wanted to come back on this to say I agree wit your point that good players should be able to play for different styles and different managers.

In an ideal world, that would happen. But I think Tottenham as a club is in this weird position of aspiring to challenge for the biggest titles, but not quite attracting the very best players to do it. So we end up trying to strike it lucky with those that are on the cusp.

And I think this shows that the players are a really important constituency that you need onside when creating the foundations to truly challenge. And I think it’s especially important for a club like ours where we can’t override a lack of culture with the most money.

So in an ideal world our players would adapt well, but it just hasn’t happened like that. I think our players more than any other need an extra reason to believe in Spurs as the place for them. Because they’re probably accepting less money. They’re needing to believe in the long term direction of the club as a place where they can improve to reach a truly elite level. And if they don’t see it, the players we attract to try and reach the top level are just about good enough, with just a high enough opinion of themselves, that they know they can do better.

So I think we need a culture, a big idea, a way of doing things that they buy into. We can’t just instil one from above and brute force it, because the players need to genuinely believe in it. They have too much leverage in the balance, and I don’t think we gave this squad enough of a reason to believe in the club. In fact we’ve started offering more money, so we’re in this transition phase of having mercenary players who aren’t quite at the very top level, but not so full of them that their sheer quality wins out ahead of anything else.

Until we settle on an idea of what we actually want to be, and it’s something that players, fans, boardroom and coaching staff all genuinely believe in and buy into, then I think we’re going to struggle.
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It is sad.
We had a culture. A way. A reputation. Poch added dimensions to those things which turned us into genuine contenders, who again suffered horrendous bad luck. The CL Final and that 'penalty' is one. Now we learn that Chelski were doped up and making illegal payments to get the players who arguably were the difference the season we got 86 points in the league and nearly won it.
We sacked it off for 'instant' managers who need 'instant' investment in order to win trophies (Conte was, of course, the Chelsea mamager when they beat us to the title and was a recipient of that 'instant' investment which turned out to be moody). We didn't 'instantly invest' (watching Mourinho scramble around trying to find positive words about the punt that was Gedson Fernandes was awful).
We managed to find some of that culture again with the unpopular Postecoglu, only to take a look at the positive side of his tenure and decide that 'daring to do' in his case just wasn't going to work, so sack it all off and start again with a boring pragmatist whose very idea of adventure I suspect stretches only as far as occasionally wearing a hoodie out at night as opposed to a turtleneck. Not only that, but let's change the entire running structure of the club during the season, I mean, it's easy right? Yeah. No.

Whatever happens in these final 7 games, I have to say that for me, Venkatesham and Lange have to go. Bye bye. I would also hope the repos sell up, albeit I might be worried at what wolf is at the door. But our reset needs to be big and deep...if we survive the drop, I suspect it won't be. So yes. I don't want relegation whatsoever, but if it had to happen, if the turfing of both mediocrity and bluffers in all areas of the club were to occur, I would accept it as a slight silver lining...
 
thfcsteff said:
It is sad.
We had a culture. A way. A reputation. Poch added dimensions to those things which turned us into genuine contenders, who again suffered horrendous bad luck. The CL Final and that 'penalty' is one. Now we learn that Chelski were doped up and making illegal payments to get the players who arguably were the difference the season we got 86 points in the league and nearly won it.
We sacked it off for 'instant' managers who need 'instant' investment in order to win trophies (Conte was, of course, the Chelsea mamager when they beat us to the title and was a recipient of that 'instant' investment which turned out to be moody). We didn't 'instantly invest' (watching Mourinho scramble around trying to find positive words about the punt that was Gedson Fernandes was awful).
We managed to find some of that culture again with the unpopular Postecoglu, only to take a look at the positive side of his tenure and decide that 'daring to do' in his case just wasn't going to work, so sack it all off and start again with a boring pragmatist whose very idea of adventure I suspect stretches only as far as occasionally wearing a hoodie out at night as opposed to a turtleneck. Not only that, but let's change the entire running structure of the club during the season, I mean, it's easy right? Yeah. No.

Whatever happens in these final 7 games, I have to say that for me, Venkatesham and Lange have to go. Bye bye. I would also hope the repos sell up, albeit I might be worried at what wolf is at the door. But our reset needs to be big and deep...if we survive the drop, I suspect it won't be. So yes. I don't want relegation whatsoever, but if it had to happen, if the turfing of both mediocrity and bluffers in all areas of the club were to occur, I would accept it as a slight silver lining...
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That's the positive I see from it. There will be an acceptance that they've fudged it up over the course of many years and a massive cultural and leadership reset is needed.

It might well knock us back 10 years and we might never get close to the summit again but we've already lost all of our momentum, so a sea change and maybe even finally an ownership change would be massive positives for me.
 
Bishop said:
That's the positive I see from it. There will be an acceptance that they've fudged it up over the course of many years and a massive cultural and leadership reset is needed.

It might well knock us back 10 years and we might never get close to the summit again but we've already lost all of our momentum, so a sea change and maybe even finally an ownership change would be massive positives for me.
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It is certainly what I would be forced to take from it, and accept.

In the last few years I have become very much someone who in times of pain and distress goes to radical acceptance as quickly as I can. Obviously where change can be made it still gets made, but right now, Tottenham Hotspur feels like an exercise in both radical acceptance and possibly an attempt to engage in concepts such as fact versus assumption (which will be vital in cleaning the deep rot this summer).

I find it hard sometimes for sure. Some of our players are find examples. They are fine players and they are simply not working out for us. Not through lack of effort, it just isn't a good fit. Squad building is part of it, I personally look across the squad and see no 'big' players with 'big' character or leadership. I'd love to see our dressing room at training. Who comes in and livens it up? Was that Maddison? Great presence but not a leader in the way that a Henderson is. Losing Kane and Son was devastating in terms of their leadership and presence too. Right now, the thing which concerns me the most is I repeatedly don't see anyone stepping up other than Archie Gray. That is a huge problem.

If we go down, we will be better off with a high turnover and keeping a few jewels. We will need a squad of players prepared to fight and battle. If we go down and stick with too many of these players, I fear they might well not have the fight necessary for a division few will have played in. Perhaps we will get to see Devine, Conley, Philips, Moore, Lankshear and others get their chances amidst a couple of crusty veterans, with Gray and Bergvall central to what we do and Danso at the back (hopefully) alongside Vuskovic?

But we will need a total change. Total.
 
billyiddo said:
He's not an elite manager imo - can't handle European competition, rarely competes on more than one front
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Give me a manager who can deliver the league title regularly … not an elite manager? He’s definitely a great manager. If he manages outside of Emirates Marketing Project he would be regarded as the second best manager in the league.
 
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